A Modest Proposal

CallMeJoe

Diamond Member
Jul 30, 2004
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Much has recently been made of the importance of improving education in the United States, with proposals ranging from President Bush's "no child left behind" initiative, to school voucher programs and "parental choice" options. Lawsuits have been filed across the nation concerning inequities in funding between school districts within a state, leading to complex systems to redistribute funds, even as there is decreasing evidence that throwing more money into failing systems will make any difference. Students are endlessly tested and evaluated. Teachers and schools are graded and regulated. The situation has gotten to the point that very few citizens even question the federalization of what have traditionally been local or at most state decisions on schools.

I dare to propose that the underlying problem has little to do with money, and that no number of new federal mandates or new testing or new teacher requirements will make any difference in our childrens' learning. I propose that we need radically to change the underlying philosophy of education in the United States. We must recognise that we do not live in an educational Lake Wobegone, and that, despite parents' beliefs, not all children are "above average". We must recognise that to allow the average and above average students to progress, some children must be left behind. We must abandon a false egalitarianism so that all students may progress to the best of their abilities, though not all to the current supposed "grade level".

My Proposal:

All students start with equal opportunity. Kindergarten and early elementary education would change little. Things would start to shake around elementary grade 3 with a gradual stratification of performance levels, dividing students initially into 3 levels based on academic performance. Higher achieving students - average students - underachieving students. Each term there would be opportunity for promotion/demotion between levels. As grades progress, there would be a further division into as many as 5 levels. Each group would advance at its own pace, with slower students no longer holding back the average and faster students able to push on ahead. Again, opportunity for movement between levels as students show either ability to move up or need to move down. Around grade 9 (3d year secondary) there would be a transition to vocational/technical training emphasis for lower levels as upper levels are moved into college preparatory. This system allows our best students to progress at a pace far beyond what they are now permitted. It allows our average students still to receive a quality education. It lets even the slowest students progress at a pace beyond what they can today, since they would be instructed at a level they can maintain, rather than being forced to try to keep up with a class average beyond their abilities.

The obvious weakness I see in this proposal is the unwillingness of parents to admit that their precious little one might actually be below average in ability or application. Anyone who has seen Mommy and Daddy screaming at a teacher who dared give little Johnny or Janie the failing grade they deserved for not doing assigned work will know whereof I speak. Nonetheless, I sincerely think this proposal gives all students an opportunity to learn at their own highest level.

Does anyone reading this missive think our brave politicians would ever vote this proposal?
 

Cerb

Elite Member
Aug 26, 2000
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Beginning: no kids should be left behind, but they shou;dn't be held up, either. Easy, normal, and hard classes houdle xist, at the least (I am not going to equate the challenge of classes with intelligence, as that is a minor factor involved).

Your proposal is quite good, IMO. The key would be to get rid of red tape. Where I was, it took a full semester to get in or out of gifted classes, doing nothing but assuring poor grades that would need making up (slowing things down either way).

I don't think it, or other reasonable ideas (learning disorders and available foods come to mind), will see the light of mainstream political day.
 

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
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Interesting proposal . . . except it doesn't reflect what science tells us about how to educate a child.

If you want kids to start with equal opportunity you actually would invest in EARLY child development basically 0-5. The notion that kids shake out around grade 3 basically means you don't know much about Ed.

What you would typically find is that kids have particular strengths and weaknesses. The preternatural attachment to "tracking" needs to be executed. If you doubt it . . . look up anything about the Pygmalion effect.

There's nothing inherently wrong with vocational ed but it's the kind of experience you would give to ALL kids . . . quite early. It's possible a kid with great mathematical talent will decide she prefers to build furniture than build bridges. A quality educative environment maximizes a child's potential to develop and exploit their talents . . . learning to evaluate, make judgements, and synthesize.



 

Cerb

Elite Member
Aug 26, 2000
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From the other thread:
"In a private system, children will be taught what their parents want them to know. In a government system, children will be taught what the state wants them to know."

fancy redirection technology at work, here

I'm not just paranoid--I went from private to public schooling. Hello 1984+22.
 

CallMeJoe

Diamond Member
Jul 30, 2004
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Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
If you want kids to start with equal opportunity you actually would invest in EARLY child development basically 0-5. The notion that kids shake out around grade 3 basically means you don't know much about Ed.
Didn't claim to be an expert on education, just making a proposal to radically modify the existing ed system in the U.S. I like your idea of starting formal education earlier.
Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
There's nothing inherently wrong with vocational ed but it's the kind of experience you would give to ALL kids . . . quite early. It's possible a kid with great mathematical talent will decide she prefers to build furniture than build bridges. A quality educative environment maximizes a child's potential to develop and exploit their talents . . . learning to evaluate, make judgements, and synthesize.
Not meaning traditional Vo/Tech education (shop classes), more of a job preparation education. I agree strongly that all students should have exposure to the manual arts as well as academic classes.

Could you elaborate more on "tracking" and the Pygmalion effect?
 

CSMR

Golden Member
Apr 24, 2004
1,376
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Originally posted by: CallMeJoe
My Proposal:
...
The obvious weakness I see in this proposal is the unwillingness of parents to admit that their precious little one might actually be below average in ability or application. Anyone who has seen Mommy and Daddy screaming at a teacher who dared give little Johnny or Janie the failing grade they deserved for not doing assigned work will know whereof I speak. Nonetheless, I sincerely think this proposal gives all students an opportunity to learn at their own highest level.

Does anyone reading this missive think our brave politicians would ever vote this proposal?
Politicians would not vote for it, at least a majority. I don't know how much control is given to the federal govt/state governments/districts anyway. It's an obviously good scheme. We had something like it in England which worked very well until the Labour party got rid of it. I think the only hope for selectivity in education (which in turn is the only hope for providing a decent education to relatively intelligent children) is increased parental and school choice, given that politicians would be loath to put in place such an "inegalitarian" scheme.
 

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
10,737
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Originally posted by: Cerb
From the other thread:
"In a private system, children will be taught what their parents want them to know. In a government system, children will be taught what the state wants them to know."

fancy redirection technology at work, here

I'm not just paranoid--I went from private to public schooling. Hello 1984+22.

Here again lies a common misunderstanding about how education "should" work. We are hardwired to THINK. The ability to solve problems and/or achieve goals is built into our genes. A quality educative environment facilitates the execution of Bloom's top 3 in the taxonomy of cognition . . . analysis, synthesis, evaluation.

Unfortunately, we have a society (and even worse leadership) that thinks the goal of education is to teach "facts." People fighting over which facts to "teach" are the epitome of the blind leading the deaf. The answer is easy . . . almost none. Did Columbus discover America in 1492? Knowing the answer doesn't make you "educated" it just means you read p.12 of a textbook. Education is making a kid rewrite Columbus' discovery from the perspective of a native American, Queen Isabella, or a sailor on the Santa Maria.
 

CSMR

Golden Member
Apr 24, 2004
1,376
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Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
Here again lies a common misunderstanding about how education "should" work. We are hardwired to THINK. The ability to solve problems and/or achieve goals is built into our genes. A quality educative environment facilitates the execution of Bloom's top 3 in the taxonomy of cognition . . . analysis, synthesis, evaluation.

Unfortunately, we have a society (and even worse leadership) that thinks the goal of education is to teach "facts."
Good points, which sound optimistic, even other-worldly, in the light of what we see around us. I'm not sure that defeats the intent of Cerb's statement which is to do with power in state and private systems.
 

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
10,737
0
0
Originally posted by: CallMeJoe
Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
If you want kids to start with equal opportunity you actually would invest in EARLY child development basically 0-5. The notion that kids shake out around grade 3 basically means you don't know much about Ed.
Didn't claim to be an expert on education, just making a proposal to radically modify the existing ed system in the U.S. I like your idea of starting formal education earlier.
Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
There's nothing inherently wrong with vocational ed but it's the kind of experience you would give to ALL kids . . . quite early. It's possible a kid with great mathematical talent will decide she prefers to build furniture than build bridges. A quality educative environment maximizes a child's potential to develop and exploit their talents . . . learning to evaluate, make judgements, and synthesize.
Not meaning traditional Vo/Tech education (shop classes), more of a job preparation education. I agree strongly that all students should have exposure to the manual arts as well as academic classes.

Could you elaborate more on "tracking" and the Pygmalion effect?


I apologize if I was a little abrupt. Having a certifiable moron as President (and having him set the education agenda) makes me grumpy.

If you properly "educate" children they will be prepared to work almost any job. In essence, you train them to understand their mind is a tool that can be applied to any problem or goal. Our educational system is full of garbage in content, structure, and execution. Leave No Child Behind is basically a better accounting of mediocrity.

get your wiki on
 

lyssword

Diamond Member
Dec 15, 2005
5,630
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School system is not the only thing that makes good students. I think everyone should know that kids from the ghettos/drunks/dysfunctional families won't have as good of a start/motivation as the "suburban" kids..
 

montanafan

Diamond Member
Nov 7, 1999
3,551
2
71
I have lots of ideas of ways to improve education, but not the time right now to go into them all. Let me just throw one of them out there right now though.

It's got to start in the elementary schools. If a child doesn't have adequate basic skills then they are not going to have the chance to learn to their potential down the road. The number of students in our high schools who can barely read and write is absolutely ridiculous. Don't put money into raising teacher salaries, and I'm saying this as a teacher, put it into hiring more elementary school teachers in order to keep the classroom sizes as small as possible to give each child a chance to receive as much individual attention as possible.

As much as I hate standardized tests it has got to be possible to make one that would test basic skills at that level as a requirement to be passed on to the next grade level. That would solve several problems. Grades would be seen as reports of the student's progress toward attaining the basic skills necessary to go on to the next level, but not leave the decision entirely up to the teacher. The teacher would still be held accountable though in that if a certain percentage of his/her students fail to pass the end of the year basic skills exam consistently, their teaching skills could be brought into question.

Now if I know teachers, and I do, they would be fighting over who got smart little Johnny and who got not so smart little Billy in their class, but you could solve that by just taking the list of students for that grade level and dividing them up into classrooms alphabetically. This teacher gets A-C, this one D-F, etc. It should motivate teachers to do the best they can with every child, as they should be doing anyway but we all know that all don't, especially if you throw in the prospect of either being canned if the kids don't pass the exam or even the incentive of merit pay if they do.

If kids don't pass the exam and have to be held back, sure they can blame the teacher, but if 99% of little Johnny's class passed and he didn't, the parents just might be persuaded that some of it might be his and their fault and they're just going to have to try a little harder.

I know there are other problems that could be brought up with this proposal, but the main idea is that these kids absolutely have to learn the basics before moving on, especially in grades K-3 in order to have a chance later on.

Another huge problem in the elementary schools especially is the Special Education program which should be thrown out in its current form altogether, but maybe I'll get into that in another post.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,804
6,361
126
Get rid of Grades. Not in the sense of no Scores, but in the sense of Grade 1,2,3,etc. The school(Christian) I graduated from had no Grades or Classes. Instead, it had booklets from Traditional Grade 1 - 12. These booklets were given for each Subject and were approximately 12 booklets/Tradtional Grade. The booklets contained much of the teaching material(some still required Text Books, especially later on), quizzes, Tests, and many Questions to be answered/Solved. The advantage to these were that all Students worked at their own pace, so the slower Students could take as much time as needed, while faster Students could go as fast as they could.

The downside to that idea is that someone would have to develop the Booklets and the Booklets would need to be consistant throughout the School system. Statewide would probably be sufficient, but Nationwide would probably be better.
 

Meuge

Banned
Nov 27, 2005
2,963
0
0
Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
Originally posted by: Cerb
From the other thread:
"In a private system, children will be taught what their parents want them to know. In a government system, children will be taught what the state wants them to know."

fancy redirection technology at work, here

I'm not just paranoid--I went from private to public schooling. Hello 1984+22.

Here again lies a common misunderstanding about how education "should" work. We are hardwired to THINK. The ability to solve problems and/or achieve goals is built into our genes. A quality educative environment facilitates the execution of Bloom's top 3 in the taxonomy of cognition . . . analysis, synthesis, evaluation.

Unfortunately, we have a society (and even worse leadership) that thinks the goal of education is to teach "facts." People fighting over which facts to "teach" are the epitome of the blind leading the deaf. The answer is easy . . . almost none. Did Columbus discover America in 1492? Knowing the answer doesn't make you "educated" it just means you read p.12 of a textbook. Education is making a kid rewrite Columbus' discovery from the perspective of a native American, Queen Isabella, or a sailor on the Santa Maria.
:thumbsup:

I'd like to further emphasize the value of education... not even 0-5, but even earlier... 0-3 or so. By 3 years old I could read 100 words per minute and was already writing (slowly)... by age 5 I could write quickly, and I was reading 5th-6th grade books.

I can only imagine how different things could've turned out for me, had my parents not taught me how to read at the age of 2.
 

Cerb

Elite Member
Aug 26, 2000
17,484
33
86
Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
Originally posted by: Cerb
From the other thread:
"In a private system, children will be taught what their parents want them to know. In a government system, children will be taught what the state wants them to know."

fancy redirection technology at work, here

I'm not just paranoid--I went from private to public schooling. Hello 1984+22.

Here again lies a common misunderstanding about how education "should" work. We are hardwired to THINK. The ability to solve problems and/or achieve goals is built into our genes. A quality educative environment facilitates the execution of Bloom's top 3 in the taxonomy of cognition . . . analysis, synthesis, evaluation.
As CSMR correctly noted, my point was about control. It's very much possible for public school officials to get in the way of parents that are attempting to help their kids and are following the rules. Various notices to teachers, paperwork that required signatures, etc., consistently got 'lost', making things that should have taken days take months (as you might guess, it is very easy for papers in file cabinets to randomly fall out, and for electronic records of their filings to dissappear--bureaucracy can change physics like that).
Unfortunately, we have a society (and even worse leadership) that thinks the goal of education is to teach "facts." People fighting over which facts to "teach" are the epitome of the blind leading the deaf. The answer is easy . . . almost none. Did Columbus discover America in 1492? Knowing the answer doesn't make you "educated" it just means you read p.12 of a textbook. Education is making a kid rewrite Columbus' discovery from the perspective of a native American, Queen Isabella, or a sailor on the Santa Maria.
One of many reasons I dropped out of a public school, have disdain for them in general, and am greatful that my parents put the work they did into my early schooling and education (another common misunderstanding is that those two words have the same meaning).

What is often considered gift and genius is common. It is merely curiosity that hasn't been stamped out.
 

episodic

Lifer
Feb 7, 2004
11,088
2
81
Originally posted by: lyssword
School system is not the only thing that makes good students. I think everyone should know that kids from the ghettos/drunks/dysfunctional families won't have as good of a start/motivation as the "suburban" kids..


Yes, the kids with problems SHOULD be helped to any extent possible. Reality is they do hold back the kids without problems. Is that fair to them?
 

Isla

Elite member
Sep 12, 2000
7,749
2
0
Interesting, as I was at work yesterday from 7:30AM-8:00PM because it was conference night.

I am certified in both regular education and special education. My degree is actually Psychology with a minor in Sociology... I don't know what they teach in the college of Education at most schools, but studying Perception, Learning, and Motivation (while applying scientific methods) prepared me well for my 7 year old charges.

Within my classroom there are children who range from 80-140 IQ, approximately. THere is no way that they can all expect to have the same outcomes. It used to be that children WERE split by the intermediate grades (3-5) into the groups that you mentioned. I suspect the ADA made that illegal.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
I like the idea in principle. However, there is no way that the people that taught me in high school could have done anything to contribute to this system. They were the rejects of the higher education system, teaching calculus despite flunking out of college because they couldn't pass calculus 2. Until the problem of shoddy teaching is addressed, the rest is relatively unimportant IMO.
Originally posted by: Meuge
I'd like to further emphasize the value of education... not even 0-5, but even earlier... 0-3 or so. By 3 years old I could read 100 words per minute and was already writing (slowly)... by age 5 I could write quickly, and I was reading 5th-6th grade books.

I can only imagine how different things could've turned out for me, had my parents not taught me how to read at the age of 2.
Maybe you wouldn't be the pompous, arrogant ass we all know and love. :D