A matter of money

[Bar81]

Originally posted by: SickBeast
OH YEAH Bar81, let's just join threads so we can flame people without adding anything to the discussion. :roll:

The dude is right, and I didn't even take economics. If there is no demand for something, the price will go down.

No, I was simply pointing out he is an idiot with no grasp of the concept he thinks he is trying to apply. And you can add yourself to the club. I'd like you to find the economics text that explains how reverse collusion=fair market price :roll: You can dream all you want about everyone banding together to not pay the prices but that's not what fair market value is all about. It's about demand=supply theoretically (it doesn't actually ever exist as there is no such thing as a truly free market) The prices currently going are fair market prices.

And another point geniuses 1 & 2, if people were to freely not pay the prices these vid card manufacturers are paying then we may never see any real innovation as costs to innovate may outstrup revenue. You should be THANKFUL that people are paying $400-500 for a vid card as it allows your cheap ass to buy an incredible card like a 9800Pro for sub $200 prices. And while you're at it you should kiss ATI and nVidia collective asses for the fierce rivalry that they have going which results in outstanding innovation and lower prices (need I remind you of the 3Dfx days) :disgust:

 

[BlindBartimaeus]

Another thing to keep in mind fellas is that if you don't have enough CPU horsepower you won't see the difference between a 9800pro and a X800...wish I had the link to the article. It is a lot more than just a video card upgrade.

To really see a big difference you may want to upgrade to a A64 @ 2.3-2.4 gig but then again I have a 9800pro with 2.4 gig of A64 goodness...and I don't need any help in Farcry.

It is a much more complicated question than you guys are making it out to be.

 

[SickBeast]

OH YES the magic continues with Bar81 flaming me now. Oh well maybe they'll give him a vacation sooner or later.

Dude you're putting words in my mouth which really irritates me. I never mentionned "fair market price", I only said that if demand goes down so does price. Why must you be such a lame ass troll who does nothing but flame people on here. I have yet to see you add anything worthwhile to a single thread. This should be stickied so that they ban you.

 

[Bar81]

Because you have not mastered reading comprehension. You agreed with him but stated a completely different concept. Reading is fundamental.

And what oh genius have you added to these boards besides misinformation and ignorance?

 

[SickBeast]

And you haven't mastered communication whatsoever and you've missed the point of these message boards. On top of that you haven't mastered a personality.

BTW if you call a graphics card selling at $100 above the MSRP "fair market price" you're somewhat lacking in intelligence.

 

[Bar81]

So you've added nothing. Just as I thought.

 

[SickBeast]

If you read the thread I most certainly did, unlike you, TROLL.

 

[Triforceofcourage]

You must take into consideration the time value of money people A dollar today is worth more than a dollar tomorrow. That money saved from buying the cheaper card can be earning interest in the bank or being invested. Should I break out the present and future value tables for you Sorry, couldn't resist.

Triforce

 

[Bar81]

Originally posted by: SickBeast
If you read the thread I most certainly did, unlike you, TROLL.

Well if you stated it with a "troll" at the end it must be true :roll:

 

[Pete]

If there is no demand for something, the price will go down.
If there's no demand for something, odds are it won't be made in the first place.

IMO, the 6800's and X800's performance seems to justify their ~2x higher prices, but not everyone needs 60fps at 16x12 AA+AF. You can argue that a 9800P is overpriced at $200, and I'd tend to agree with you, given ATi's profits. But I don't think you can call a 9800P reasonably priced at $210 and a X800P unfairly high at $350, given the benchmark disparity.

 

[ForceCalibur]

Originally posted by: Triforceofcourage
You must take into consideration the time value of money people A dollar today is worth more than a dollar tomorrow. That money saved from buying the cheaper card can be earning interest in the bank or being invested. Should I break out the present and future value tables for you Sorry, couldn't resist.

Triforce

Actually, a dollar tomorrow is worth more than a dollar today is what your trying to say. An invested dollar today is not worth anything more than its worth today, but it will worth something more tomorrow.

And I can say just as well that hte opportunity cost of frames/second lost due to playing with an inferior graphics card as well as immesuarable enjoyment lost from better IQ and features, it more than makes up for the pennies that you save (ultimately, not the 200 you save right now).

 

[biostud]

If you upgrade every 2 year and you always buy the $400 card it will cost the double as buying the $200 card.

You can only upgrade every 4th year for the same price if you buy the $400 card every time.

 

[ForceCalibur]

Originally posted by: biostud666
If you upgrade every 2 year and you always buy the $400 card it will cost the double as buying the $200 card.

You can only upgrade every 4th year for the same price if you buy the $400 card every time.

Uh, what? Did you not take math?

Buy Radeon today: 200 dollars. Upgrade in 2 years: 200 dollars. Total = 400 Dollars. Unless you want to use your computer with no graphics card for two years, your spending the same amount.

The point of buying the 400 dollar card is that you DONT have to upgrade every 2 years.

Buy 6800 today: 400 dollars. Stay with it in 2 years: 0 dollars: Total = 400 dollars.

 

[SickBeast]

So you're saying that you think a 6800U could last you for 4 years? I highly doubt that one.

 

[jhurst]

Your forgetting the fact that in 2 yrs. everyone will be saying "oh man don't buy the X800, its a POS". 2 yrs. is an eternity in video card yrs. What was the card everyone was buying this time 2 years ago?? I went ahead and checked:

May 2002:

Ti4600 - $311
Ti4200 - $215
Radeon 8500 AIW - $231

So, in 2 years.....when the X800 costs $100, you will be the one telling people not to buy the X800.

 

[ForceCalibur]

It doesn't matter if it doesn't last 4 years. For instance the Radeon 9700/9800 series (basically 2 years old, good example here) have people still buying them. Does that mean say, the Radeon 9700 can't run Farcry or whatever? No, people run it just fine, with a few options turned down sure. This willl be the same case with the 6800/X800. It will still run everything just fine, but as the 3'rd and 4'th year comes rolling along, you MAY not be able to do so with all the AA/AF, highest resolutions etc.

Remember, Unreal 3 (coming out in 2 years) used the new 6800 Ultra to run fine with everything turned up.

 

[ForceCalibur]

Originally posted by: jhurst
Your forgetting the fact that in 2 yrs. everyone will be saying "oh man don't buy the X800, its a POS". 2 yrs. is an eternity in video card yrs. What was the card everyone was buying this time 2 years ago?? I went ahead and checked:

May 2002:

Ti4600 - $311
Ti4200 - $215
Radeon 8500 AIW - $231

So, in 2 years.....when the X800 costs $100, you will be the one telling people not to buy the X800.

Try http://anandtech.com/searchresults.html?requesttimeout=360

July 18th (corresponds much better to 6800/X800, than your TI example, infact the TI series isn't considered apart of this generation. You cna only use R30 and NV30 as this generations example).

Right now, 2 years after the Radeon 9700 released, I have no objection to recommending it over the Radeon 9800 and others, just because its such a great Price/Perofrmance deal.

 

[SickBeast]

Originally posted by: ForceCalibur
Remember, Unreal 3 (coming out in 2 years) used the new 6800 Ultra to run fine with everything turned up.

"Everything turned up"?? From what I've read, that game will require 512-1024MB of Video RAM to run with maximum texture settings. My guess is that they ran it with optimal settings for the 6800U.

I'm not doubting that it will run games nicely in two years; I'm just still standing by my point that it's best to buy something a year old as opposed to cutting edge in order to save money.

I do see your point, however, I don't think you'll enjoy going from cutting-edge performance to value-line performance over the 4 years you plan to own the card for. To me someone who spends $500 on a video card is someone who demands very high performance. You would probably only keep the thing for 2 years max then buy another $500 card. That would be $1000 every 4 years as opposed to $400 if you were to do things more conservatively. Just food for thought.

 

[ForceCalibur]

True, if you do end up upgrading even top of the line every 4 years, it will cost more. But if you think about it, buying cheap now + upgrading cheap later still equals same amount of money spent buying expensive now and not upgrading as soon. Basically money = same, BUT the first two years you get alot more features, frames, and eye candy. That, to me, is obviously worth buying cutting edge now, instead of settling for say a Radeon 9800 pro.

Also keep in mind that not every two years do we get to see improvements like this. I mean, we're seeing TWICE the performance of current gen cards. That, to me, is definately worth buying. If you look back on product cycles, the change from Geforce 2 to Geforce 4TI was huge. The change from TI to 9700 was huge. The inbetween however, it negligible. (Geforce 2 to Geforce 3? R8500s, R9000s, TI4600s?, Radeon 9700 -> 9800?. Take the last example, we got like 10-20% improvement in framerate over 2 years! This time around, we're getting 100% improvement in framerates! Much more worthy of the 400-500 dollars.

Of course, this means that you have to have 400 bucks to spare. Not everyone does, all the time. But also keep in mind that 400 bucks is like.. *nothing! in the grand scheme of things. I know I've wasted alot more money buying crappy games that I didn't spend enough time demoing or researching!.

My point is that besides the obvious enjoyment benefit, there actually IS an economic benefit to buying THIS generations cards. It doesn't apply to every product change (Like Radeon 9700 to 9800, pointless) but these kind of improvements in features and framerates really make it more economically smart to buy a new card now, instead of buying say a Radeon 9800 Pro and buying a X800/6800 in 2 years.

 

[Algere]

Originally posted by: ForceCalibur

Remember, Unreal 3 (coming out in 2 years) used the new 6800 Ultra to run fine with everything turned up.

That was just a demo.

The game itself will be more demanding and according to the BU interview with Tim Sweeny you'll need a gig of video memory to run with full detail.

 

[jhurst]

What I think is dumb is buy an X800 (or 6800 assuming IT does in fact get released) at such a premium price. Games right now can't even make use of the card. The 9800pro/5950U are basically owning any game that comes out right now.

I don't oppose buying these cards, they are greatness, but wait until games actually need these cards. Which may be awhile, and will also allow the markets to settle down a bit on these cards, with pricetags around $250-300.

 

[Bar81]

You don't have to pay a premium. In fact, if you pulled the trigger you could have gotten one for $360. And I disagree, games right now can make full use of the card. You need the X800 pro to play FarCry how I'm playing it - 1280x768 AA/AF

 

[Zebo]

Why not wait 2 years to buy a card then?You'll Pick up a 4600 for $50 in FS forums eventually.

Point is you buy what the games you play demand. Like Bar says no current card will play FC at respectible frames with everything on HIGH but maybe the x800 so you HAVE to upgrade if you wish to play well. You think we like shelling out $400?

 

[biostud]

Originally posted by: ForceCalibur

Originally posted by: biostud666
If you upgrade every 2 year and you always buy the $400 card it will cost the double as buying the $200 card.

You can only upgrade every 4th year for the same price if you buy the $400 card every time.

Uh, what? Did you not take math?

Buy Radeon today: 200 dollars. Upgrade in 2 years: 200 dollars. Total = 400 Dollars. Unless you want to use your computer with no graphics card for two years, your spending the same amount.

The point of buying the 400 dollar card is that you DONT have to upgrade every 2 years.

Buy 6800 today: 400 dollars. Stay with it in 2 years: 0 dollars: Total = 400 dollars.

You're only talking about next two years, I'm talking about the general way of getting most value. Since it follows the same repetitive cycle your calculation only work for one upgrade going from a videocard that has no value at this point. This will only be true if the card is bought 4 years ago for $400 or 2 years ago for $200. This ofcourse does not include any re-sell value.

 

[VIAN]

Remember, Unreal 3 (coming out in 2 years) used the new 6800 Ultra to run fine with everything turned up.

Actually, it was more like run everything at 15fps with everything turned down. Recommended VRAM for Unreal 3 is 1GB. RAM will probably be 2-4GB.