A Matter of Concern *Updated*

[mchammer]

Originally posted by: Ronstang

Originally posted by: mchammer

Originally posted by: Ronstang

Originally posted by: mchammer

Originally posted by: Ronstang

Originally posted by: mchammer


Please rectify:

"You have to realize that the religious thinkers would rather destroy many current lives to save one possible life....."

and

"I am not being judgemental"


In addition:

"you just can't take a position can you"

So "I must be a Democrat"

Sounds like more judging going on here.

How can the truth be judgemental? If you say abortion is wrong under any circumstance then that opinion is likely coming from a religious point of view and thus your only concern is for the unborn baby's life and not the lives it is going to affect. That is a fact. You cannot deny it. If abortion is unacceptable under ANY circumstances you value the fetus more than those it affects....period.

I was jabbing at you with the Democrat remark. It is not my fault Democratic politicians make their decisions more on polls than conviction. You are riding the fence here so I likened you to them. No biggie.

You are mighty defensive.

So, is abortion acceptable under certain circumstances?

That does not make any sense, I do not like how you are putting people into these kinds of categories.

As for my personal opinion, I will not discuss it any further on a public forum, other that to assure you that I am not some "religious nut" as you seem to be implying.

Ok...let's take religion out of the equation, even though I am not calling people religious nuts. I underatand their position but do not agree with it.

If abortion is unacceptable under ANY circumstances then you value the life of a fetus more than you value the lives of the people it will affect. That is simple and not religious. How is that so hard to understand? What you are telling me by not taking a position is that you are afraid to becuase you think the fetus is more important than anyone it may affect and thus you have no counter argument. Fine by me. I am just bored and messing with you.

I think it can be better described as an issue of when life begins. For example if an entity that was a life negatively affected the lives of others, your reasoning would not hold.

OK, so you are religious and against abortion under any circumstances. I get that. I respect your position but I do not to agree with you. If my wife was going to die carrying a baby to term and was pregnant I would abort the baby EVERY time....not even any thought needed. Even if the baby was 6 months along. Not even a question.

I have never said my opinions. I don't think this is necessarily a religious issue anyway. We must decide when is the point that life begins. So you are saying one of two things, either life does not begin untill after 6 months, or it has begun, but rather than having an absolute value, must be weighed in relation to the alternatives, as is done in war for example.

As an aside, there are those who do not believe that life begins untill some time after birth as they base life on cognitive capacity among other things. You can look up Peter Singer on this issue. As a counterpoint, look at Nat Hentoff.

 

[Kadarin]

Originally posted by: mchammer
We must decide when is the point that life begins.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that "life" begins at the moment of conception. However, a "person" does not begin until the fetus has an independent consciousness. My personal opinion is that if it doesn't have an independent consciousness, abort away. If it does, then (again, in my opinion), there should be a good reason for the abortion.

 

[AStar617]

The litmus test that never disappoints with hardline Pro-Lifers:

"If your 11yo daughter was raped and a child was conceived, would you force your child to have an illegitimate child that might put her own life at risk?"

Living life in a no-exceptions, absolute manner is a very difficult thing to which one can claim to commit. To say I would never under any circumstances kill a man is inaccurate. For instance, if I walked in on a man who killed my entire immediate family, and he had his back turned and I had a weapon, let's just say there would be no citizen's arrest that day. Maybe that makes me a bad person in some eyes, but that's how I feel.

/hurls $0.02 grenade over the top and ducks

 

[FoBoT]

someone responsible in the family should adopt the baby so the mother can go be a crack whore like she wants to be

 

[zendari]

Originally posted by: AStar617
The litmus test that never disappoints with hardline Pro-Lifers:

"If your 11yo daughter was raped and a child was conceived, would you force your child to have an illegitimate child that might put her own life at risk?"

Living life in a no-exceptions, absolute manner is a very difficult thing to which one can claim to commit. To say I would never under any circumstances kill a man is inaccurate. For instance, if I walked in on a man who killed my entire immediate family, and he had his back turned and I had a weapon, let's just say there would be no citizen's arrest that day. Maybe that makes me a bad person in some eyes, but that's how I feel.

/hurls $0.02 grenade over the top and ducks

Most of them would.

 

[Kenazo]

If you talked her out of abortion you sure as heck should have talked her into adoption.

 

[zendari]

Originally posted by: WHAMPOM

YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE! Your family talked an irresponsible girl into having a baby. Just what the he!! is wrong with your family. And don't come whinning around here with the problems you helped create!:disgust:

Bullsh!t. Part of being an adult is making your own decisions and taking responsibility.

This girl and the boyfriend aren't the victims.

 

[Kev]

Originally posted by: Ronstang

Originally posted by: astrocase
Just re-read the post.

You have to realize that the religious thinkers would rather destroy many current lives to save one possible life.....remember a fetus can't survive on it's own until very late in pregnancy and many women never carry to term. In fact many women have a "hard" period and are passing a dead mass of cells that would grow into a baby yet they never knew they were pregnant. They don't understand by choice.

:roll:

You are the only person to mention religion in this thread. Narrow minded fool.

 

[amicold]

Originally posted by: SlitheryDee
A little backstory first. My cousin is 19 years old and she has a 7 month old baby named Neveah. She's relatively immature for her age, dropped out of school long ago, has never held down a job, etc. She's currently living with her boyfriend's father and his sister although she's spent short periods living with my mother. When she got pregnant there was a time when she was considering abortion. The rest of the family, myself included, eventually convinced her that this was a bad decision

My mother recently had a telephone conversation with my aunt (my cousin's mother). My cousin has been trying to get her mother to allow her to move back in with her for some time now, claiming that she can't stand being with the baby all the time and that the responibility was literally driving her out of her mind. A few nights ago she dropped a real bomb on my aunt, claiming that she would "Kill the baby before it's a year old". Obviously this distressed my aunt a great deal and she called my mother (who is a social worker). The general concensus is that this is probably just a rather extreme tactic that my cousin is using to get what she wants, and that she really doesn't mean to harm the child. However we also agree that such things should never be taken lightly. Crimes of the sort that she threatened do indeed happen all the time, and she may truly be at the end of her rope.

The decision we made was that my mother would go talk to her. She would basically give her an ultimatum to admit right then and there that she wasn't serious, or my mother would call the Office of Community Services and let them deal with her.

What does ATOT think of this situation? Did we decide to do the right thing? Is it enough? I dunno maybe this is a bit serious for these forums.

It's not uncommon for young mothers to kill their children. I'm sure their is a name for it, but I don't know what it is. I'd assume it's a natural instinct of some sort that is supressed nowadays. Perhaps she should put the kid up for adoption, or your family should have allowed her to have the child aborted. As harsh as it sounds, it is what may have been best, at least at this age now.

 

[Mursilis]

Originally posted by: Ronstang
This is a perfect example of why abortion is necessary at times. Nice job convincing a child to have a child. People seem to be too stupid to not get pregnant when they shouldn't be and then the moralists think they are going to be mature and smart enough to take care of a child. Your cousin is immature but she also has the kind of pressure on her that is going to guarantee she never goes anywhere in life. One mistake that could have been corrected but instead let's pile on the problems. Having those mistake babies is much more important though.....because a life is a life afterall. When are you people going to understand that making kids have kids when they screw up and get pregnant usually ends up NEGATIVELY impacting many lives. The unwanted baby usually suffers the most growing up in a broken non-traditional family. No wonder this world is going to crap.

Everyone's a 'moralist', unless you're an anarchist, supporting no man-made laws at all. Nature has given us 'laws' (i.e., survival of the fittest, the strong will rule the weak, etc.), so replacing that with a man-made legal code is merely replacing one morality for another.

 

[Mursilis]

Originally posted by: Ronstang

Originally posted by: astrocase

Originally posted by: sunase
Wow, the family argued her into keeping the baby when she wasn't ready for one and now they won't help take care of it. Oo

QFT

Didn't even pick up on that before. That's a tragic way to look at it.

That is one of my biggest peeves with pro-lifers....they want to force their opinion and choices on everyone else yet don't want to help in the responsibility that follows. How many would be pro-lifers if all who voted for it were assigned a number and when money was needed to care for all the unwanted babies they would recieve a bill for their share of the costs?

By extension of your logic, if you oppose the killing of post-birth infants (and I assume you do), should you then be held financially responsible for any such child the mother wishes to kill? After all, if she tires of the baby and wishes to kill it, and you 'force your opinion and choice' on her, shouldn't you then have to kick in for the care of the child?

 

[Mursilis]

Originally posted by: Ronstang

Originally posted by: mchammer

Originally posted by: Ronstang

Originally posted by: astrocase
Just re-read the post.

You have to realize that the religious thinkers would rather destroy many current lives to save one possible life.....remember a fetus can't survive on it's own until very late in pregnancy and many women never carry to term. In fact many women have a "hard" period and are passing a dead mass of cells that would grow into a baby yet they never knew they were pregnant. They don't understand by choice.

Stop with this blatent hyperbole. This issue is very complicated and your post are not shedding any light on the situation but rather are quite judgemental.

Whatever you say skippy. It is the truth you won't face. Stop being so defensive.

Speaking of truths you won't face, plenty of atheists are pro-life, such as columnist Nat Hentoff, who used to write for the Village Voice. They've even got a website. But they don't get much play in the press because self-proclaimed 'outside of the box' thinkers such as yourself want to cling so desperately to your strawman 'it's just the religious nuts who are pro-life' argument, despite its clear fallacy. There's Gays for Life, Liberals for Life, Atheists for Life, Feminists for Life, etc., all of whom advance non-religious arguments against abortion. You don't have to agree with their views, but your continuing argument that it's just religious people who are against abortion is clearly false, and indicative of intellectual cowardice. There's a truth you won't face.

 

[Mursilis]

Originally posted by: astrocase
I'm not really trying to put you on the spot or not but I've made clear my position so it's only fair that you shed a little bit of light on yours.

I had a friend who found out very late in the pregnancy that the child was going to be very mentally and physically handicapped. They got an abortion. Within a year they had a beautiful and healthy daughter. That was a terrible decision and thing to go through. I remember feeling the kicking in the stomach during the first pregnancy. However, I think it was the right thing to do.

Let's change the facts somewhat - what if the couple discovered right after the birth that the child was "very mentally and physically handicapped" - OK to terminate it?

 

[astrocase]

http://www.fallacyfiles.org/

What if the couple discovered that the kid was 20 years old and slept with his sister? Ok to abort?

 

[mercanucaribe]

ADOPTION FTW

 

[SlitheryDee]

Mkay, I guess I shouldn't have let this thread go for so long, but I had a lot of work to do. I guess I need to clear up a few things.

Originally posted by: Ronstang

Then set up the adoption before you decide to force a child to carry a child to term. Even the experience of carrying a child to term can destroy a young girl's life.....but I know, I know....the mass of cells that MIGHT grow into a life is more important that the girl's.

Adoption WAS the original plan, my cousin decided to keep the baby. The mass of cells wasn't endangering her life and she decided that she was willing to carry the baby to term. Her mother, who has had more than one abortion, was instrumental in this decision.

Originally posted by: Crimzon
Your family convinced her it was a bad decision? If that is her pattern in life, how is having a kid making things any easier? It will not magically mature her or teach her responsibility. It was her choice to have the abortion inititally if she wanted and now that your family talked her into having the child, your family should be lending support. Calling child services is pushing the problem off to someone else. Her mother should let her move back in and help out, or whoever else 'took part in the decision'.

You're right, no one thought that the baby would make her life any easier. We did think that it might mature her though. Having someone else who REALLY depends on you does that sometimes. The only reason that calling child services was brought up is to demonstrate to her that she can't use the baby to manipulate other people. It was also our intention to help her realize that saying something like that seriously can carry significant consequences.

There was also a rather extensive dicussion on the religious aspects of this situation. I will tell you now that I subscribe to no religion or any denomination of any religion yet I still think that having a baby is better than killing it. Look up my posts if you're bored enough. I think you'll find that I contest religion in general at every opportunity presented to me.

Also look up my posts in the various abortion threads that I have taken part in. I do support and respect the mother's right to abort, but I would advise against it in cases where the mother's life isn't in danger. In this case my family and I were successful. I have seen this baby, held her and fed her. She's absolutely adorable. I'm very happy that she is alive instead of fuel for some abortion clinic's incinerator. At the same time I am in no position to care for a baby, nor is anyone else who urged her to have the baby. I guess I'm open game for being called a hypocrite.

We CAN help her to either put the baby up for adoption, or babysit on occasion while she goes to parenting classes. It might even be good for her if she left the child with foster parents while she figured out how to be part of the work force (get a job and keep it). The office of community services could help her in both of these goals better than any of us could.

 

[WHAMPOM]

Please do the World a whole lot of good and take your entire family(second cousins and all)to a clinic and get sterilized. Do it! For the betterment of humanity! NOW!

 

[SlitheryDee]

Originally posted by: WHAMPOM
Please do the World a whole lot of good and take your entire family(second cousins and all)to a clinic and get sterilized. Do it! For the betterment of humanity! NOW!

*Feeding the troll* Get a good bellyfull. Make sure the nutrients get to your brain then come back and start making sense.

 

[Isla]

Originally posted by: WHAMPOM
Please do the World a whole lot of good and take your entire family(second cousins and all)to a clinic and get sterilized. Do it! For the betterment of humanity! NOW!

LOL...

That poor baby. Life is precious and it needs to be valued. Too bad she didn't give it up for adoption, to someone who would actually want it...

Good luck anyway... this will be a lifetime of struggle for all involved.

 

[mchammer]

Originally posted by: Isla

Originally posted by: WHAMPOM
Please do the World a whole lot of good and take your entire family(second cousins and all)to a clinic and get sterilized. Do it! For the betterment of humanity! NOW!

LOL...

That poor baby. Life is precious and it needs to be valued. Too bad she didn't give it up for adoption, to someone who would actually want it...

Good luck anyway... this will be a lifetime of struggle for all involved.

I thing that in many cases raising a kid can be a struggle, even if they have a good situation. You could have a kid with ADD, or one that raises hell as a teenager, or plays to many video games or whatever.

I don't think it is a foregone conclusion that this situation has to end up negatively. I would urge the OP to help out his cousin however he can and set an example for the rest of his family.

 

[astrocase]

The baby is here to stay. I still think the babysitting/parenting classes are a good idea. Start with that and see where it goes. If she needs to take a cooking class or something else too, help her out.

 

[SlitheryDee]

Updated

 

[Buck Armstrong]

Originally posted by: SlitheryDee
...In other words, it's the old "keep a niggah" baby...

AHAHAHAHA! *Gasp* AWWWW-HAW-HAW-HAW!!!

 

[chambersc]

i don't understand the whole concept of "it's the old "keep a niggah" baby." Elaborate?

 

[mugs]

Originally posted by: Astaroth33
From what I've seen, even though they would never admit it, many pro-lifers are more about enforcing their version of sexual morality than they are about caring for babies. The responsibility of raising a child is God's righteous punishment for "immoral" and "sinful" sexual behavior.

On the contrary, most pro-lifers would rather see those babies be put up for adoption. I'm not sure what you're basing our assumptions on.