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A liberal's comment on Iraq

I had concerns about the harm Saddam was doing to his own people, and the threat he posed to others.

I had concerns about the world's ability to deal with issues like this, an inability to do much to help get rid of such bad leaders, between 'do nothing' and assassination/colonization.

I had sympathies for the idea of trying to spread democracy in Iraq and the middle east.

I say all this for context and to keep the issue from being black and white.

When liberals criticize Bush on Iraq, it's not because they love Saddam Hussein - though a case can be made that the Iraqi people were far better off before the US sanctions, Iraq had a relatively middle class, prosperous society despite the tyranny before the sanctions, that the sanctions were a terribly immoral policy that killed hundreds of thousands of innocents for ineffectual purpose, but that's another issue.

I'd like to post the basis for the criticism of republicans on Iraq in my view.

First and foremost, it's because Bush unnecessarily took the United States to war illegally.

There are several negative aspects to this, so I'll review them.

First, he lied to congress. Not about the WMD - assume that he thought they were there. He lied about whether he would go to war.

There was a period where Saddam did not cooperate with the inspectors, and to get cooperation, Bush asked the UN for a new resolution, 1441, demanding cooperation and saying there would be consequences if the inspectors were not allowed back in; and he asked Congress for the authorization to use force if the inspectors were not allowed to do the inspections, which he said was needed to make Saddam feel pressure to cooperate, and which he promised was absolutely not a green light to go to war.

The policy worked. Saddam saw that the inspectors were the only way for him to avoid war and he cooperated. The inspectors were there for several months, in the Winter of 2002 and the Spring of 2003, until March 15. The United Nations - the only institution Saddam was legally obligated to comply with on the issue - appointed Hans Blix as the official investigator to advise them whether Saddam was cooperating, or whether he was not and force was needed.

Hans Blix made several reports; in them he said that the inspectors were accessing all sites required. He said that the cooperation was not perfect, but that it was substantial, and that it was adequate for completing the inspections, and that he specifically recommended against the use of force. He said the inspections would finish in a few months, and implement long-term safeguards preventing the startup of WMD programs.

At this point is where the betrayal of Bush begins on this. He tried to get a second UN security resolution authorizing force. The Security Council, noting the cooperation and the fact that a peaceful solution was in progress, declined to agree, and so Bush did not put it up for a vote. He then betrayed the US's word as a signatory to the UN charter, violated the law which says that treaties are fully the law of the land, and he violated his word to Congress, and he aborted the inspections in favor of invasion.

*That* was the betrayal of Bush.

The implications not only include the betrayal to the world and the Congress, but they mark the first such war in US history based on 'prevention', without even the pretense of our having been attacked, as flimsy as that has been sometimes. It set a precedent for any nation in the world to invade any other, UN signatory or not, if it claims it 'feels threatened' by another nation, even on very flimsy evidence which turns out to be false.

Second, the liberals' problem with Bush on Iraq is that having made the mistake of the war, good could have come of it had the post-war policies been well done.

They were a disaster. There was little planning, a lack of resources, the disbanding of the army which led directly to the huge insurgency, the unnecessary disbanding of the entire Ba'ath party including people such as schoolteachers when a far more selective purge would have worked better, it included gross mismanagement of the Iraqi $20 billion fund from oil for food which could have been used for rebuilding and instead was virtually wasted.

Further, they put no-experience 20-somethings in charge of important functions just because they'd applied to a right-wing think tank, they privatized billions of services unnecessarily increasing costs and war profiteering, they tried to implement a right-wing set of poliies from installing a corrupt puppet Chalabi to a flat tax (they did) to selling off all the national assets (they were thwarted). The rebuilding is mostly a disaster, with oil production and electrivity at or below pre-war levels.

Bush has given spreading democracy a bad name, which is tragic for the world which needs it.

These are key issues I see with Bush's policies on Iraq.

I post this as a clarification of my own position, since it's so often unclear what liberals are upset about - did we love Saddam? etc.

For the right-wingers who want to complain about liberals not being more constructive, I say deal with it: I demand accountability first, before you can ask for 'unity'.

For us to prevent the same mistakes, for us to prevent this going down as a Bush 'victory', a political price must be paid, in my view.

So my message on this now is for that price to be paid. We'll deal with the 'how to make the best of this as well', but not at the expense of accountability.

The republicans need to pay big time for this, and I feel no obligation to help them out of their political mess by playing 'bi-partisan'. They need to lose power, then we'll cooperate.
 
Regardless of the outcome of the 06 election, we will still have the problem of Iraq. But I am predicting that if the dems take control of even one wing of congress, Rummy will resign
long before he can be issued a subpoena to testify.---that in itself is step one of making any progress in Iraq.
 
Originally posted by: Lemon law
Regardless of the outcome of the 06 election, we will still have the problem of Iraq. But I am predicting that if the dems take control of even one wing of congress, Rummy will resign
long before he can be issued a subpoena to testify.---that in itself is step one of making any progress in Iraq.

He doesn't have to be a part of the government to be subpoenaed to testify before Congress...or to be tried by them.
 
Originally posted by: slash196
Originally posted by: Lemon law
Regardless of the outcome of the 06 election, we will still have the problem of Iraq. But I am predicting that if the dems take control of even one wing of congress, Rummy will resign
long before he can be issued a subpoena to testify.---that in itself is step one of making any progress in Iraq.

He doesn't have to be a part of the government to be subpoenaed to testify before Congress...or to be tried by them.

He's not gonna be tried...that whole idea is ridiculous. WTF can he even be tried for?
 
Originally posted by: ntdz
Originally posted by: slash196
Originally posted by: Lemon law
Regardless of the outcome of the 06 election, we will still have the problem of Iraq. But I am predicting that if the dems take control of even one wing of congress, Rummy will resign
long before he can be issued a subpoena to testify.---that in itself is step one of making any progress in Iraq.

He doesn't have to be a part of the government to be subpoenaed to testify before Congress...or to be tried by them.

He's not gonna be tried...that whole idea is ridiculous. WTF can he even be tried for?

Well if he's not a 'covered member' of the Executive he can't be Impeached.. that is the first step in removal from office which he wouldn't hold if he resigned.. But, lying to Congress is a crime.. if under oath.. He may have or may not have but Congress would forward to Justice that issue..
In any event, the President can squash any testimony under National Security blanket.. and I think it would work.. at least in open session.. and maybe in executive session as well..
The Big Deal issue won't be visited and that is Bush's actions regarding the invasion ARE by most Legal minds (about 60% as I've read it) violation of International and US law.. and Impeachment is only one step.. It should be visited by Justice and the Hague.. I just have no idea why the Hague has not done more in the name of Democracy... Money I guess.. they all have dirty hands..

 
What we now see in Iraq is the result of 88 years of flawed Western policies in the region. Iraq as a country is a flawed, contrived Western constuct. Getting to the heart of the problem is an exercise in onion peeling. I don't purport to have an answer to the problem; we're damned if we do one thing, and damned if we do another. I err on the side of disengagement/redeployment and allowing the Iraqis to find their own solution (for better or for worse re: the interests of the US) even though that may mean a bloody and possibly genocidal civil war, and an Iran-friendly Shiastan-like entity. Tough sh!t, we took it upon ourselves to knock that proverbial Humpty-Dumpty off the wall. I believe in the self-determination of all peoples of the world, and the US might not agree with what some peoples decide that is - but we are betraying our own precedent as a nation when we try to force other populations in the world to be anything other than what they decide to be. Democracy at gunpoint is a paradox.
 
Originally posted by: Lemon law
Regardless of the outcome of the 06 election, we will still have the problem of Iraq. But I am predicting that if the dems take control of even one wing of congress, Rummy will resign
long before he can be issued a subpoena to testify.---that in itself is step one of making any progress in Iraq.

Rummy won't resign, he has too much pride. Like I've said before, even if he does, it won't matter, it's too late. The damage he's caused cannot be undone in the two years.
 
Originally posted by: Lemon law
Regardless of the outcome of the 06 election, we will still have the problem of Iraq. But I am predicting that if the dems take control of even one wing of congress, Rummy will resign
long before he can be issued a subpoena to testify.---that in itself is step one of making any progress in Iraq.
I agree... I'm not sure about the "subpoena" portion, but otherwise I too hope that the changes taking place throughout the House and Senate will ultimately lead to replacing Rummy.

He needs to go... he needs to be replaced by a retired General who knows wtf the military is capable of doing, and also knows how to properly utilize our forces to destroy our enemies decisively.
 
Originally posted by: Craig234
I had sympathies for the idea of trying to spread democracy in Iraq and the middle east.
The implications not only include the betrayal to the world and the Congress, but they mark the first such war in US history based on 'prevention', without even the pretense of our having been attacked, as flimsy as that has been sometimes. It set a precedent for any nation in the world to invade any other, UN signatory or not, if it claims it 'feels threatened' by another nation, even on very flimsy evidence which turns out to be false.
Second, the liberals' problem with Bush on Iraq is that having made the mistake of the war, good could have come of it had the post-war policies been well done.

They were a disaster. There was little planning, a lack of resources, the disbanding of the army which led directly to the huge insurgency, the unnecessary disbanding of the entire Ba'ath party including people such as schoolteachers when a far more selective purge would have worked better, it included gross mismanagement of the Iraqi $20 billion fund from oil for food which could have been used for rebuilding and instead was virtually wasted.
For the right-wingers who want to complain about liberals not being more constructive, I say deal with it: I demand accountability first, before you can ask for 'unity'.

For us to prevent the same mistakes, for us to prevent this going down as a Bush 'victory', a political price must be paid, in my view.

So my message on this now is for that price to be paid. We'll deal with the 'how to make the best of this as well', but not at the expense of accountability.

The republicans need to pay big time for this, and I feel no obligation to help them out of their political mess by playing 'bi-partisan'. They need to lose power, then we'll cooperate.

I agree with what you say about the approach Bush took to going into Iraq. A couple of points.

Spreading democracy by forcing it on a system where deep rooted and suppressed divisions exist is going to cause chaos - we should have learned from Yugoslavia, and to some extend the break up of the USSR. I was against the Iraq invasion even before it started and of course I was looked upon as if I had horns growing out of my head.

Wars have always begun because of flimsy reasons or on very flimsy evidence or because one nation 'feels threatened' by another powerful or weaker nation or even just because one nation doesn't like to people or culture in another. So that is not going to stop countries to go to war from doing so, UN mandate or not.

Gross mismanagement of post invasion Iraq has been an absolute disaster - one needs to look at the liberation of Bangladesh to see how post war management should be done.

Playing a blame-game will be counter productive in the long run. One has to stop this desire for winner vs loser attitude for the country to move on. Look at the recent Amish approach to see how to move on.



 
Originally posted by: GroundedSailor
Playing a blame-game will be counter productive in the long run.

One has to stop this desire for winner vs loser attitude for the country to move on.

Look at the recent Amish approach to see how to move on.

Yes, but there was no one in the Amish community that had to "cede" power in that case.
 
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: GroundedSailor
Playing a blame-game will be counter productive in the long run.

One has to stop this desire for winner vs loser attitude for the country to move on.

Look at the recent Amish approach to see how to move on.

Yes, but there was no one in the Amish community that had to "cede" power in that case.

The families of the victims had to 'cede' their desire for 'justice' and 'revenge', both being forms of power.

What this country needs right now is a true uniter to get back on track. We're constantly stuck in the rut of blame/payback/revenge/restitution/whatever you wanna call it.

 
Do you think that when a country sponsors terrorism, that this action is the same as doing the killing yourself?

Iraq was a sponsor for terrorism. It gave money to terrorist organizations.

Consider the following example.

I hate my wife, so I hire a hitman to kill her.

I am not really doing anything aggressive so the law should not attack me.

I view it as exactly the same.
 
I'm not talking about revenge for its own sake, blame for its own sake. I'm talking about the need to prevent the errors from re-occuring. As long as the people who did these things are able to get away with them and keep power, they can happen again. We need to take a stand against that. We need to remove them from power and atone.

With that, we can take the Amish approach, which I do like. If the Amish see a guy with a gun walking down the street shooting them, they aren't going to let it go on, just stanidng there - they're going to take action to stop the violence, even while loving the person doing it. And that's what we need to do with the republicans.
 
Originally posted by: piasabird
Do you think that when a country sponsors terrorism, that this action is the same as doing the killing yourself?

Iraq was a sponsor for terrorism. It gave money to terrorist organizations.

Consider the following example.

I hate my wife, so I hire a hitman to kill her.

I am not really doing anything aggressive so the law should not attack me.

I view it as exactly the same.

False analogy.

Do some research on fallacies of logic.
 
Originally posted by: piasabird
Do you think that when a country sponsors terrorism, that this action is the same as doing the killing yourself?

Iraq was a sponsor for terrorism. It gave money to terrorist organizations.

Consider the following example.

I hate my wife, so I hire a hitman to kill her.

I am not really doing anything aggressive so the law should not attack me.

I view it as exactly the same.

That's odd... I never recalled any proof to that effect. It was speculation that the administration touted.
 
The Iraqi adventure is a debacle for the US as a whole, and enormously destructive to the people of Iraq.

That being said, the process and results that have occurred over the past few years are EXACTLY the way they were expected to go by the people who forced this policy. It's a self-sustaining problem now, which will by logical extension, 'necessitate' certain paths of action and economic direction.

Action taken at the national level is rarely for the obstensible reasons that leaders and pundits publically admit to.

Iraq is the location where the largest theft and money-laundering scheme in history is being perpetrated.

No other reason stands to logic :

(Reason 1) - Iraq had WMDs.
Answer : Iraq *DID* have WMDs of varying forms, but had used most of them against the Kurds and the Iranians. Some *may* have remained, but it is fairly unlikely that they were a credible global threat in any way, shape, or form. On the WMD issue, North Korea had already established a massive chemical weapons arsenal, but no talk of invasion there for WMDs (under a leader who speaks openly of war with the West).

(Reason 2) - Saddam supported terrorists.
Answer : Saddam *tolerated* certain terrorist organizations, which is the nature of leading such a large territory in such a volatile area. Compared to virtually all other nations in the region, his secular baathist regime severely LIMITED terrorist activity. Compare to the Sudan, a known Terrorist playground (including the famous Al-Qaeda) for years.

(Reason 3) - To 'liberate' the Iraqi people.
Answer : Iraq was a country drawn by the British out of arbitrary lines, containing three main groups of ethnic and religious differences of truly biblical proportions. In such a land, rule can only realistically be stabilized by the use of extreme force. The Kurds, the Sunni Baathists, the displaced and angry Shiites, such a fantastic recipe for extreme discord and violence should the regime change. Peace within a decade was pie-in-the-sky bullshit as a reasonable possibility. The planners of this war knew that well, for peace, freedom, and 'liberation' was just more bullshit shoveled on the public.

The real reasons :

*Sustain occupation for the maximum time possible, during which billions upon billions of dollars funnel into the hands of a few powerhouse cliques.

*During occupation, to foster violence and hatred as much as possible, as creating more terrorists is a key goal, because when they will inevitably strike closer to domestic targets, it will authorize additional conflicts for additional profits.

*To establish permanent forward bases for future conflicts within the region.

*To establish greater influence on global petroleum production.
 
Hint: First thing I would do is ditch the ?First and foremost, it's because Bush unnecessarily took the United States to war illegally." line.

The only people who make this claim are far out of the mainstream liberals, P&N posters, and a few others.

As long as you start any discussion on Iraq with that line many people will tune you out.

As for the inspections and all that, you can make the argument both ways. Yes Saddam was giving more cooperation, but NO he was not fully cooperating
Here is part of what Blix said on March 7th 2003. Some of it is edited out. Read it all here
One can hardly avoid the impression that after a period of somewhat reluctant cooperation, there's been an acceleration of initiatives from the Iraqi side since the end of January. This is welcome. But the value of these measures must be soberly judged by how many question marks they actually succeed in straightening out.

It is obvious that while the numerous initiatives which are now taken by the Iraqi side with a view to resolving some longstanding, open disarmament issues can be seen as active or even proactive, these initiatives three to four months into the new resolution cannot be said to constitute immediate cooperation. Nor do they necessarily cover all areas of relevance. They are, nevertheless, welcome. And UNMOVIC is responding to them in the hope of solving presently unresolved disarmament issues.
There are lots of other details in his testimony that raise questions. Iraq had a list of people who can testify to being part of destroying WMD, but they can't provide any documents proving their destruction etc.

Personally I believe that after Bush is gone and all the investigations in the world are complete on what happened pre-war it will be determined that Bush and others in the White House truly believe that Saddam still had stockpiles of WMD. And as long as Bush believed that then all the ?Bush lied? lines in the world are without merit.

Was going to war with Iraq the right thing to do?
Well before the war myself and a vast majority of the country believed it was.
March 2003: A Gallup poll taken after the beginning of the war showed a 62% support for the war
April 2003: ?A poll made by Washington Post and ABC News found that 72% of Americans supported the Iraq War, even without finding any chemical or biological weapons.
A poll made by CBS found that 60% of Americans said the Iraq War was worth the blood and cost even if no WMD are ever found.?

It was not until around June of 2004 that Americans started to change their minds.
Even today many of the polls are split on whether or not using force on Iraq was the right thing to do.
The one thing nearly everyone is in agreement with though is that the way in which the war has been handled, and around 2/3rd of Americans disapprove out how the war has been fought.

I believe it is the constant drone of bad news that drives down people belief that the war was justified. If we ?lose? the war then obviously it will look at as a failure, however, if Iraq is eventually turned into a working democracy then it will be look upon as a success.

BTW: You don't run wars based on opinion polls, if we did that we would have given up our push for Independence in December of 1776 when everything was going against us. Read the book 1776 if you don't believe me.
 
Hint: First thing I would do is ditch the ?First and foremost, it's because Bush unnecessarily took the United States to war illegally." line.

The only people who make this claim are far out of the mainstream liberals, P&N posters, and a few others.

As long as you start any discussion on Iraq with that line many people will tune you out.

Funny, you say nothing to show the claim isn't true.

Since I'd argue that if it's true, it should be said whether or not some people tune out the message, let's look a bit more at whether it's true.

Let's start with the constitution, which says that treaties the US signs are the law of the land. Next, let's note that the US has signed the UN charter with the weight of law, if I understand correctly. The League of Nations fell apart when its creator, the US, failed to approve it in the Senate; but the UN was approved.

Next, let's look at the fact that the law the US is obligated to in the UN charter says that its signatories may not use for against other nations except in limited circumstances:

# All Members shall settle their international disputes by peaceful means in such a manner that international peace and security, and justice, are not endangered.

# All Members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations.

Nothing in the present Charter shall impair the inherent right of individual or collective self-defence if an armed attack occurs against a Member of the United Nations, until the Security Council has taken measures necessary to maintain international peace and security. Measures taken by Members in the exercise of this right of self-defence shall be immediately reported to the Security Council and shall not in any way affect the authority and responsibility of the Security Council under the present Charter to take at any time such action as it deems necessary in order to maintain or restore international peace and security.

Next, the question is, did any of the conditions allowing for the use of force in the charter exist for the US attack on Iraq? No, Iraq had not attacked the United States requiring self-defense outside the UN's Security Council.

This leaves only the resolutions the Security Council did pass, the only one relevant here 1441, which called for the inspectors to enforce the agreement banning Iraq from the possession of WMD, with the threat of force if the government did not comply as determined by the Security Council. They named Hans Blix the head of the inspectors, and instructed him to make reports to the Security Council on the progress, so that they could decide, in the absence of sufficient cooperation, whether to authorize the use of force or other measures against Iraq. It was understood in the discussions and the language of 1441 that no member could unilaterally decide on behalf of the UN that Iraq was out of compliance and use force; that determination would require an additional resolution.

As I've quoted previously, Hans Blix made multiple reports on the progress through early 2003, in which he said the inspectors had received access to all the sites they wanted, that the cooperation was imperfect but substantial and adequate, and that he recommended against the use of force because they were receiving enough cooperation.

Based on this progress, the Security Council informed the Bush administration that it would not approve the second resolution it wanted authorizing the use of force; Blix estimated the inspections would complete within a few months.

At this point, Bush announced, outside of any legal authority, that in his view the United Nations had not met its responsibilities, and that the US would tak e matters into its own hands and invade Iraq.

As Wikipedia summarizes:

In the leadup to the meeting, it became apparent that a majority of UNSC members would oppose any resolution leading to war. As a result, no such resolution was put to the Council...

The USA and Britain, while admitting that such a resolution was diplomatically desirable, insisted that Iraq had now been given enough time (noting also the time since the first disarmament resolutions of 1991) to disarm or provide evidence thereof, and that war was legitimized by 1441 and previous UN resolutions. Non-permanent Security Council member Spain declared itself with the USA and Britain. Nevertheless, this position taken by the Bush administration and its supporters, has been and still is being disputed by numerous legal experts. According to most members of the Security Council, it is up to the council itself, and not individual members, to determine how the body's resolutions are to be enforced.

So, you had the US using force outside the UN charter, claiming the right to enforce a UN resolution against the will of a majority of the UN Security Council.

This is why the war was illegal, as stated by the Secretary General of the UN. The illegality cannot be formalized in a charge because the Unisted States can veto any such resolution.
 
Originally posted by: piasabird
Do you think that when a country sponsors terrorism, that this action is the same as doing the killing yourself?

Iraq was a sponsor for terrorism. It gave money to terrorist organizations.

Consider the following example.

I hate my wife, so I hire a hitman to kill her.

I am not really doing anything aggressive so the law should not attack me.

I view it as exactly the same.


Replace Iraq with Saudi Arabia, Eygpt, Pakistan, etc.... In fact those nations had more connections to Al Qiada then Iraq ever has had in the past.What is your point ?
 
Let's not forget the US has a long history of sponsoring terrorists as well, when we like their side. As we all know, this includes the radical Islamisists like bin Laden back when they were the enemy of the USSR in Afghanistan. It also includes our current safe haven for the man convicted of downing a Cuban civilian airliner. And the Contra terrorists, etc.

Need we go on to the government-sponsored terrorism, from the death squads in El Salvador, the secret police force we set up for the Shah of Iran, etc.? We have a hard time condemning others while we don't acknowledge our own sponsorship. It becomes merely a cover for "an excuse to attack whomever we like" through selective enforcement.
 
1. So as you say the President violated the UN charter and therefore should be charged with a crime based on what the UN charter says? Why don?t we just hand over control of our military to the UN and let them decide where and how it should be used?

2. As has been pointed out in another thread. The original 1991 cease fire agreement called for total disarmament by Saddam as well as many other things, such as flyovers. The first time Saddam fired at a coalition jet as it was doing an authorized flyover Saddam was in violation of the cease fire agreement and hostilities could have been restarted at ANY time of our choosing.

3. As you point out ?Nevertheless, this position taken by the Bush administration and its supporters, has been and still is being disputed by numerous legal experts. ? so this is not an open and shut case, but something that is disputed. I would be willing to bet the dispute runs right down political lines as well.

Let me ask you a question, when Bill Clinton bombed Kosovo without going to the UN first did you call that an illegal act of war? There was no UN charter authorizing the use of force and the US had not and was in NO danger at all of being attacked by the aggressors in that war, not even through terrorism. Furthermore, Clinton did not even seek congressional approval before hand, unlike Bush. Pretty simple question, were the actions of Clinton illegal?

One last thing: "No, Iraq had not attacked the United States requiring self-defense outside the UN's Security Council. " Well they did fire at many of our planes patrolling the no fly zones and they did try to kill a former US President, I would call that hostile actions. Also, let's not forget the Russian warning that Iraq wanted to, or was trying, to attack US 'interests' in the world.
 
Originally posted by: Craig234
Let's not forget the US has a long history of sponsoring terrorists as well, when we like their side. As we all know, this includes the radical Islamisists like bin Laden back when they were the enemy of the USSR in Afghanistan. It also includes our current safe haven for the man convicted of downing a Cuban civilian airliner. And the Contra terrorists, etc.

Need we go on to the government-sponsored terrorism, from the death squads in El Salvador, the secret police force we set up for the Shah of Iran, etc.? We have a hard time condemning others while we don't acknowledge our own sponsorship. It becomes merely a cover for "an excuse to attack whomever we like" through selective enforcement.
Please don't profligate the lie that the US supported Osama.
Here is evidence that charge is totally false:
State Department web site
CNN web site: Bergen: Bin Laden, CIA links hogwash
The story about bin Laden and the CIA -- that the CIA funded bin Laden or trained bin Laden -- is simply a folk myth. There's no evidence of this. In fact, there are very few things that bin Laden, Ayman al-Zawahiri and the U.S. government agree on. They all agree that they didn't have a relationship in the 1980s. And they wouldn't have needed to. Bin Laden had his own money, he was anti-American and he was operating secretly and independently.

The real story here is the CIA didn't really have a clue about who this guy was until 1996 when they set up a unit to really start tracking him.
Even Osama says he was not funded by the CIA, I can't find that link, but I posted it before.
 
1. So as you say the President violated the UN charter and therefore should be charged with a crime based on what the UN charter says? Why don?t we just hand over control of our military to the UN and let them decide where and how it should be used?

Ignore everything after the bolded part. This isn't about arguing about some consequence of the war being illegal, it's about whether the war was illegal.

The UN Charter is good to the five permanent members, making them virtually immune to consequences for their actions from the UN, with their permanent veto.

You need to show some hole in the case that was made to make your point.

2. As has been pointed out in another thread. The original 1991 cease fire agreement called for total disarmament by Saddam as well as many other things, such as flyovers. The first time Saddam fired at a coalition jet as it was doing an authorized flyover Saddam was in violation of the cease fire agreement and hostilities could have been restarted at ANY time of our choosing.

You are in error. The no-fly zones were never part of any UN resolution. For years, the US tried to get one, including its draft of 1441, and it was never able to.

There's a reason we never pushed the war issue over them, because we lacked the legal grounds to do so. Here's an article summarizing the legal status of the no-fly zones:

No-fly zones not UN approved

In any case, the language of the UN charter is about a much more significant attack by a nation against another, not shooting at planes over its own territory.

Even the Bush administration has not tried to argue that the no-fly zone conflicts qualify under the self-defense exception of the UN charter.

3. As you point out ?Nevertheless, this position taken by the Bush administration and its supporters, has been and still is being disputed by numerous legal experts. ? so this is not an open and shut case, but something that is disputed. I would be willing to bet the dispute runs right down political lines as well.

The fact that there is a flat-earth society does not prove the flatness of the world is a reasonably disputed issue. I see little disagreement among neutral experts.

Again, prove your case if you can, don't use something like 'there are some right-wingers who say otherwise, so it's not proven'.

Let me ask you a question, when Bill Clinton bombed Kosovo without going to the UN first did you call that an illegal act of war? There was no UN charter authorizing the use of force and the US had not and was in NO danger at all of being attacked by the aggressors in that war, not even through terrorism. Furthermore, Clinton did not even seek congressional approval before hand, unlike Bush. Pretty simple question, were the actions of Clinton illegal?

Yes. There are many differences between the policies of Clinton on Kosovo and Bush on Iraq, including their motivations, but Clinton's actions were ultimately illegal.

Again, however, there is no adequate enforcement of the UN charter.

For a good discussion of the issue, including the discussion around the need for an exception for humanitarian intervention, see this link, especially the Economist article.

It concludes:
One day humanitarian intervention may be accepted as legal, say the optimists. If NATO's action in Kosovo succeeds, it may be seen as a big step in that direction. But, right now, NATO countries ? albeit with the best of motives ? have put themselves, like Mr. Milosevic, outside the law.
Article on legality of Kosovo

One last thing: "No, Iraq had not attacked the United States requiring self-defense outside the UN's Security Council. " Well they did fire at many of our planes patrolling the no fly zones and they did try to kill a former US President, I would call that hostile actions. Also, let's not forget the Russian warning that Iraq wanted to, or was trying, to attack US 'interests' in the world.

All inadequate for any of the legal exceptions for invading their nation, as noted above in part. Was their attempt to kill former President Bush ever proven legally to be Saddam's orders? We did launch missiles as a response, itself an extra-legal measure. Is Castro justified in bombing the US in response for our covert government attempts to assassinate him as the *sitting* ruler? How about Chile's rights, for our organizing the assassination of their elected president, Salvadore Allende? Selective memory you have?

The Russian warning is useless for legal purposes - if true, it's usable as a lead to look for actual information that can be proven. It's not justification for war.
 
Regarding bin Laden: I could have phrased that more carefully - I'm referring to some of bin Laden's forces, not to bin Laden personally, who had his own wealth as you said.

However, he was able to use the people we trained and armed for his own purposes, reportedly.
 
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