A kinder, Gentler, drug war by the U.S.A.

[maluckey]

http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/1226/p07s01-woam.html

Give them something legal to make a living off of, and something that can be taken away if they go back to grow illegal coca crops. Sounds good to me.

 

[Dari]

The war on drugs is an expensive farce. It should be about supply-and-demand; market forces; personal responsibility; and the medical industry, not law enforcement or ethics.

If we can legalize alcohol and gambling, why not recreational drugs?

 

[Bowfinger]

Originally posted by: maluckey
http: //www.csmonitor.com/2003/1226/p07s01-woam.html

Give them something legal to make a living off of, and something that can be taken away if they go back to grow illegal coca crops. Sounds good to me.

Link

 

[Bowfinger]

Seems like a good program, but it isn't enough. As long as there is demand, there will be people willing to grow coca. As Dari says, it's all about supply and demand. At best, a program like this will increase prices, but that's never been much of a deterrent with cocaine.



Edit: spelling

 

[colonel]

I was in many countries in Latin America, and the one who really touch me was Bolivia; walking on the streets you see this "stuff" growing like weed, the bolivian guy next to me said "this is the beloved patriot staff" and you will be surprise they dont even touch it , I thing we must make this thing legal so parents can get more control over the children

 

[maluckey]

Bowfinger, you are right. Price is little deterrent to an addict, or perons disposed to sell drugs. It often means higher profits from less product, and fiercer competition. It still is a step in the right direction though, because at least you can eliminate some of the volume, and make tracking of the end product back to it's point of origin much easier. All this in addition to giving a fair living via legal agriculture to a less than fortunate person. Liberals should jump on this one.

Dari, Legalization works about as well as anti-smoking literature. An extreme example, but possibly the way it could happen. Let's allow many thousands to become addicts. Then, let's allow the now indigent sobs to go onto welfare and medicare because of inability to work, compounded by health problems as a result of drug use. I'ts also always been my dream to allow less sensible persons to waste their lives at my expense, while they pursue "higher truths" made possible by drugs...............NOT! Recreational or otherwise, the risks to my wallet from their activities is high, and for the sole purpose of their amusement.

Colonel, Education, and parental guidance is the answer to drug use problems, not legalization. If you can't control your children when it's illegal, what makes you think it will be easier to stop it when it is legal, and readily availible? Decriminilizing drugs will not remove addiction, or the crimes associated with drug use. An addict will do most anything for his next dose, to include burglary, prostitution, arson, murder, and the list goes on. It matters not that it is legal, but that it is not free. Someone will make the money from it, and it's not the common citizen in middle class America.

good relevant article
rebuttal to first article

 

[GrGr]

We should import/export some surplus Talibans to Colombia/Peru/Bolivia etc. The Talibans knew how to kick poppygrower butt in Afghanistan. They could put their drug war fighting expertise to practise in Colombia so everybody is happy. Expect the poor farmers growing coca of course but the way the US is spending money nowadays I'm sure the US government can give a few bn $ in aid to soothe any hard feelings.

 

[Drift3r]

Originally posted by: maluckey
Dari, Legalization works about as well as anti-smoking literature. An extreme example, but possibly the way it could happen. Let's allow many thousands to become addicts. Then, let's allow the now indigent sobs to go onto welfare and medicare because of inability to work, compounded by health problems as a result of drug use. I'ts also always been my dream to allow less sensible persons to waste their lives at my expense, while they pursue "higher truths" made possible by drugs...............NOT! Recreational or otherwise, the risks to my wallet from their activities is high, and for the sole purpose of their amusement.

Sorry man but your wallet already has been lost in this war on drugs. A war that as turned into a very big multi-billion dollar a year industry who depends on suppling equipment and other supplies to drug enforcement agencies. All of which might I add is all paid for by your tax dollars. Such an industry with big lobbying power in Congress has no such dreams of wininng any kind of drug war but maintaining the status quo. What is the net result of all this ? Well the streets I grew up on when I was a child are still drug ridden and in some areas a lot worse then they were before. People are already becoming addicts at record numbers and your wallet is paying for their drug treatment. Oh yeah you can't be on welfare and be a drug users anymore ! You have a limited amount of time to get a job and keep it or else they'll cut those welfare checks not to mention the drug testing and screening they do if they suspect you of being a drug addict. So let's not use that old line about drug addicts and welfare recipants anymore.

 

[Wolfdog]

The war on drugs is a stupid concept. There will always be "illegal" drugs about just as long as they can make money with them. The real destructive drugs are legal. As example tobacco is still legal, even though it costs the contry billions in healthcare taking care of the morons who light up. It is just as habit forming as heroin, yet is still sold in vast quanaties. One is illegal while one is "legal". Cut them off medicare/caid and let them pay for thier habit. So instead of arresting people selling the illegal drugs, make it downright unprofitable. I know that the US has storehouses of the stuff. Test the quality and give it out for free for those that use it. No more profit for the drug importers, they will take thier wares elsewhere. If you are caught under the influence of a addictive drug while driving, you loose your license permanently. Its the bus for you! Just what we need a LSD addict at the wheel halucinating. Although there are some straight non users that drive like that anyway.

 

[Tab]

Legalize drugs. Problem sovled.

 

[Drift3r]

Originally posted by: Wolfdog
The war on drugs is a stupid concept. There will always be "illegal" drugs about just as long as they can make money with them. The real destructive drugs are legal. As example tobacco is still legal, even though it costs the contry billions in healthcare taking care of the morons who light up. It is just as habit forming as heroin, yet is still sold in vast quanaties. One is illegal while one is "legal". Cut them off medicare/caid and let them pay for thier habit. So instead of arresting people selling the illegal drugs, make it downright unprofitable. I know that the US has storehouses of the stuff. Test the quality and give it out for free for those that use it. No more profit for the drug importers, they will take thier wares elsewhere. If you are caught under the influence of a addictive drug while driving, you loose your license permanently. Its the bus for you! Just what we need a LSD addict at the wheel halucinating. Although there are some straight non users that drive like that anyway.

LSD is not addictive it just destorys your brain and makes you see things. A person who has been taking LSD for a long time could stop taking LSD easliy and not suffer any withdrawl effects but the damage done to their brain will last a lifetime.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Drift3r

Originally posted by: Wolfdog
The war on drugs is a stupid concept. There will always be "illegal" drugs about just as long as they can make money with them. The real destructive drugs are legal. As example tobacco is still legal, even though it costs the contry billions in healthcare taking care of the morons who light up. It is just as habit forming as heroin, yet is still sold in vast quanaties. One is illegal while one is "legal". Cut them off medicare/caid and let them pay for thier habit. So instead of arresting people selling the illegal drugs, make it downright unprofitable. I know that the US has storehouses of the stuff. Test the quality and give it out for free for those that use it. No more profit for the drug importers, they will take thier wares elsewhere. If you are caught under the influence of a addictive drug while driving, you loose your license permanently. Its the bus for you! Just what we need a LSD addict at the wheel halucinating. Although there are some straight non users that drive like that anyway.

Small not here my friend. LSD is not addictive it just destorys your brain and makes you see things. A person who has been taking LSD for a long time could stop taking LSD easliy and not suffer any withdrawl effects but the damage done to their brain will last a lifetime.

Hmmm, maybe I shouldn't have dosed all those times I did in my youth!

 

[sandorski]

Maluckey quote:

"Dari, Legalization works about as well as anti-smoking literature. An extreme example, but possibly the way it could happen. Let's allow many thousands to become addicts. Then, let's allow the now indigent sobs to go onto welfare and medicare because of inability to work, compounded by health problems as a result of drug use. I'ts also always been my dream to allow less sensible persons to waste their lives at my expense, while they pursue "higher truths" made possible by drugs...............NOT! Recreational or otherwise, the risks to my wallet from their activities is high, and for the sole purpose of their amusement. "

1) Every year more smokers quit
2) there are already thousands of addicts
3) the rest also already exist

When alcohol prohibition was first rescinded there was a jump in alcohol consumption, but over time that consumption dropped. One thing improved dramatically though, Organized Crime lost a major source of income.

 

[maluckey]

Organized rime still is funded primarily by drug income, laundering, and gambling. I wonder where anyone got that it isn't?

regarding legal drug and our kids.......
Teenage alcohol use worse than previously thought.

And another............

We find that much of the negative association between cross-sectional measures of marijuana use and cognitive ability appears to be attenuated by individual differences in school attachment and general deviance. However, difference-in-difference estimates examining changes in test scores across 10th and 12th grade reveal that marijuana use remains statistically associated with a 15% reduction in performance on standardized math tests.

Pacula RL, Ringel J, Ross KE. Does Marijuana Use Impair Human Capital Formation? NBER Working Paper No. w9963

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: maluckey
Organized rime still is funded primarily by drug income, laundering, and gambling. I wonder where anyone got that it isn't?

regarding legal drug and our kids.......
Teenage alcohol use worse than previously thought.

And another............

We find that much of the negative association between cross-sectional measures of marijuana use and cognitive ability appears to be attenuated by individual differences in school attachment and general deviance. However, difference-in-difference estimates examining changes in test scores across 10th and 12th grade reveal that marijuana use remains statistically associated with a 15% reduction in performance on standardized math tests.

Pacula RL, Ringel J, Ross KE. Does Marijuana Use Impair Human Capital Formation? NBER Working Paper No. w9963

you will take out organized crime when drugs are legalized. Furthermore, you get a steady revenue from taxation.

 

[TheBoyBlunder]

Now...provided the US and the various defoliation planes don't take out the new farmer's legal crops for no reason, this is a pretty good idea.

 

[Zebo]

Dari, Legalization works about as well as anti-smoking literature. An extreme example, but possibly the way it could happen. Let's allow many thousands to become addicts.

This is the stupidest argument of the anti-drug crowd. Not only is it persumputus without any proof, it neglects human nature which says a druggie who does'nt care about destoying his/her body certainly does'nt give a rats ass about some drug law.

Lemme ask you simply: Would you start using drugs tomorrow if legalized? Why not? And what makes you think "thousands" of others would? And don't tell you happen to be stonger than others.

 

[maluckey]

Well Zebo, you think I'm anti drug? You couldn't be farther from the truth. I'm anti- allowing a known danger to my community, and to personal safety. Decriminalization has not really helped the countries that have tried it. The criminal element remains, the number of addicts don't decrease. I don't support tobacco sales, even though few persons have ever robbed someone for a pack of cigarettes. I don't like the fact that we sell alcohol, because the vast majority of highway fatalities are caused by persons under the influence of drugs, and/or alcohol. Even with the mounting evidence that certain chemicals in most beers and wines can improve long term health of those that drink it in moderation, I still feel that we should at least have the laws controlling sales and possession of alcohol be more strictly enforced.

Anti smoking legislation hasn't affected teen smoking much, and in fact, teen smoking among females is on the rise.

Alcoholism of teens is on the rise.

The issue isn't with so-called resopsible persons. It's with the hundreds of thousands that can't manage to even stop smoking, or can't seem to not drive while under the influence. Call it the bad apple ruining it for everyone, but it's true. If everyone would be calm and mild, not become addicted, cause no further degradation of the family unit, and stay away from crime to support their habits, then I too would support full legalization in a second.

Life in fantasyland would be so fine. I take it most have never met a Crack addict, a Meth junkie, Heroin addict, or a long-term Huffer. The physical damage done by these drugs is severe. The pschological effects of these drugs is worse. Many are unable to care for themselves to any reasonable standard, let alone their families, or go to work. Their withdrawal symtoms can be lethal, so they will avoid withdrawal at virtually ANY cost. They will steal, murder, and anything else just to get the drugs. So unless legalization of these drugs comes with free supply of them, the crime remains. No money for the government or middle class will result. Bug business will take the profits, the taxpayer will foot the bill for the Medicare and Medicaid of the junkies, ane responsible people will be where the started, minus more taxes taken from them. Most person wanting legalization use the sham idea that it's good for the government. What they really mean, is "I use illegal drugs and suffer no harm, so what's the problem?" or "I can handle it." Ask the question of legalization, while in the poor section of town, outside of that little rosy world, and you'll get a different answer.

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

Malucky, how can you say that legalization works as well as anti-smoking literature when legalization has yet to be tried in the US (forgiving, of course, the period before such drugs were available

I would simply legalize them for all adults over 18. Why? Because I don't think it's any of my damn business if people choose to do drugs. I do not choose to do them, but I don't see a reason why I have a right to stop someone else. I also choose not to have anal sex with men, but in the same vein I see no reason why men who are consenting adults ought to be stopped from doing so.

In short, Liberty as rule of law, and convince people of the moral need to make good choices for their lives at home and at school...(not a hit for Christianity, I do mean morality as a system of CHOOSING right from wrong, not having it forced on you, which is what the drug war tries to do...)

Jason

 

[maluckey]

I respect your viewpoint, I really do.

Legalization in the countries that practice it has been of no particular value to anyone except those who partake of certain drugs. The crime remains, and so do the number of addicts, along with the extra burden on health care.
Most agree that in Europe, the are more restrained than in the Americas in regards to addiction and abuse of drugs. I can only imagine how it will be here in Hedonist land.

I disagree, in the same way that I disagree that childrens safety should be left soley to the parents. If there is a way to ensure safety, then our responsibility is to offer it. Offering dangerous substances as a mattter of course, then acting surprised and trying to fix it when someone becomes harmed, is a rather moronic approach when compared to prevention.

Also, your statement about not caring about what happens to the lives of those that partake of these dangerous substances seems a rather callous approach don't you think? I care about my fellow man, and do care if he becomes addicted, or destroys his long term health. I would not tempt any man, if it was not truly necessary. By your claimed standards, automakers would not be responsible for what they sell any more than a Heroin dealer. I hope that is not your true opinion. Caveat Emptor? I think not, in this case.

 

[Zebo]

Of course I care..all I'm saying is legality never slowed anyone down with consentual crimes because they are viewed differently.

"What damn business you got to say what I put in my body?"

In the mean time it's costing a fortune and turning innercities into war zones for very lucrative profits to be made...or death.

 

[Zebo]

By your claimed standards, automakers would not be responsible for what they sell any more than a Heroin dealer

As long as the drugs are labled and education is taught, heck no not responsible. But if they tried to cover up the harmfull effects yes. Just like for ford when an issue is raised. Like roll-overs on trucks, they have a warning label in the visor about it. But when they covered up knowledge they got burned in court. Or a better example is cigarettes and alcohol. Since everyone knows thier effects they don't even have to say..it's common knowlege not to fly an aeroplane while drunk etc., alcoholism occurs, etc/ Same is already known about drugs thanks to nancy..has not detered them though.

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

Originally posted by: maluckey
I respect your viewpoint, I really do.

Legalization in the countries that practice it has been of no particular value to anyone except those who partake of certain drugs. The crime remains, and so do the number of addicts, along with the extra burden on health care.
Most agree that in Europe, the are more restrained than in the Americas in regards to addiction and abuse of drugs. I can only imagine how it will be here in Hedonist land.

I disagree, in the same way that I disagree that childrens safety should be left soley to the parents. If there is a way to ensure safety, then our responsibility is to offer it. Offering dangerous substances as a mattter of course, then acting surprised and trying to fix it when someone becomes harmed, is a rather moronic approach when compared to prevention.

Also, your statement about not caring about what happens to the lives of those that partake of these dangerous substances seems a rather callous approach don't you think? I care about my fellow man, and do care if he becomes addicted, or destroys his long term health. I would not tempt any man, if it was not truly necessary. By your claimed standards, automakers would not be responsible for what they sell any more than a Heroin dealer. I hope that is not your true opinion. Caveat Emptor? I think not, in this case.

It may be that I'm a little callous when it comes to people destroying themselves. If that's their choice, let them have it, we don't need them in the gene pool anyway. I would reserve my sympathy, instead, for other people whom they harm through their actions. If a guy sits in his apartment and dopes himself to death, too damn bad. I feel sorry that a life was destroyed that SHOULD have been a happy, productive one, but in the end he made his choice, no one else did. I think it's best to let people experience the natural consequences of their choices than to try and make the world so safe that you can't get a paper cut. It's expensive, it's intrusive and it's just bad for everyone involved.

We saw with Prohibition just how effective disallowing alcohol was; everyone who wanted it, had it, the difference was that now we had to spend a fortune to track, find, prosecute and imprison people, and for what? For hurting THEMSELVES.

I would guess --and it's only a guess-- that the legalization of all drugs --for adults, mind you, not for children-- would result in a temporary spike of abuse, addiction and death, all of which would be *highly* publicized, and that afterward you would see a general decline in the use of seriously dangerous drugs. I don't see any reason why people shouldn't smoke Pot, which is less hazardous even than alcohol (the difference being that Alcohol is the conservative vice of choice, you see), and so I suspect that you would see an increase in the number of people who smoke pot. Given that no one has *ever* died from an overdose of pot, however (pot laced with other crap shouldn't be lumped in here) I don't imagine there will be much of an increase in pot related deaths.

But no, I don't recognize anyone's right to choose what goes into my body except for me. The safety of products sold by the auto or any other industry is an entirely different matter.

Jason

 

[maluckey]

That's some double standard. In one breath you say that everyone should be allowed to do as they wish, but shouldn't be allowed to sell defective cars. Why not? You should be able to buy any car you wish, regardless of the safety, and drive it anywhere you want. Sure,some idiots will buy a POS and run over your mom when they find there are no brakes, but hey, it's your mom, not mine, and besides, before the FTSA, everyone drove whatever they wanted right? I think that gun ownership should be extended to convicted Felons too. It doesn't matter that they were violent before....They've reformed and found religion. It doesn't matter to me that they might shoot someone as they may have done in the past. It's up to them, not me. I also think that young children shouldn't have to be put into car seats. They belong to the parents, and the parents should decide if they want to risk the life of the child, right? Before you get mad, it's sarcasm OK!!!?

In any soceity, you have to pick and choose your fights, and weigh the good versus bad. I cannot imagine there being fewer addicts, or health related problems from legalizing dangerous drugs, and neither can anyone with a firm grasp of human nature. Your attitude seems rather selfish (you want to smoke dope, and fell that it would be good to legalize it), and ill thought out. I can only hope that others that want to smoke weed have more conscience than shown in your two previous posts, and decide instead to either follow the law, or petition to change it, knowing that their actions will allow other that want more dangerous drugs to follow in their footsteps. Don't believe it? Take a cue from the newcomers in the lawsuits after allowing more gay rights and unions. If you allow one Schedule I drug, you will eventually have others wanting different drugs. Think about more than your wants and needs for a moment if you will and consider the total implications of that which you ask. It affects more than just the casual weed smoker, and his friends.

 

[Bowfinger]

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
It may be that I'm a little callous when it comes to people destroying themselves. If that's their choice, let them have it, we don't need them in the gene pool anyway.

Sadly, many of them manage to pollute the gene pool before they destroy themselves.