A heartfelt thank you to the Muslim intellectuals

[AFB]

ban the use of religion for incitement to violence

I would love to see the wording on that first.

 

[Sultan]

Excuse me, Sultan, but if I were actually an avid Muslim basher I wouldn't have started this thread in the first place. You seem to be very confused between bashing Islam in general and bashing the Islamofascists. It would seem that whenever you see someone broach the subject of Islam to criticize the militant portion of it, your eyes instantly cross and you begin a furious reply, laying a wide swath of accusations against anyone who would dare breath a debilitating word against Muslims in public.

Just starting this thread does not mean your previous remarks and comments should be ignored. You have vehemently attacked Muslims in many threads. The word Islamofascists is your own creation and a figment of your imagination. Islam does not have a militant portion, people are militant. There is no militancy taught or prescribed by any religion which includes Islam. Again, this goes on to show your bigoted and biased nature by explicitly stating that Islam has a "militant" portion. Ridiculous.

As to your contention that you've stated previously on how Muslim leaders, scholars, etc. have condemned the acts, again you seem to miss the nuances in my claim. I know they have done that and stated as much when we've had this debate previously, but you still flew off the handle. What I stated was that simply making a proclamation was not enough. Josef Cleric from the local mosque issuing a public statement condemning the terrorist acts is ultimately useless lip service. What I asked for, and specifically stated in our last go-'round, was that a influential group get together and do this as a whole, unified, publicly and with force. Now they have and that's why I laud the move now when I did not previously. Is there some reason you do not understand the difference between those two sentiments?

I answered this question of yours as well. I informed you that there is no central hierarchy in Islam such as the Pope - neither is there a "influential group". Countries of Muslim majorities are taking action. I mentioned this in our previous debate, and I mention this now, yet you conviniently choose to ignore it. Therefore I state, your ignorance, or rather biased attitude towards Islam and Muslims cannot be argued with. The article you cited mentions 2500 intellectuals from 23 countries, which is neither an influential group, nor is their act forceful. Many more scholars and intellectuals have spoken against terrorism and terrorist acts before 30th October. If you want to know of an organization, you would only need to look up CAIR's statements, an organization here right at home.

They did so independently, not as a group. Anyone can make a dog and pony show of words.

haha. I've to hand it to you. Without acknowledging the substance of what these intellectuals and scholars said, you criticize them for speaking independently and not as a group. Bravo. Your hate is more evident with every post. You just HAVE to say something against Muslims and Islam.

Except many of the "bad sort" of Muslims these days are using their religion in various countries around the world to resrict freedom, oppress, murder, brutalize, and rape people in order to enforce their specific brand of Muslim laws, whether those people want to live under those laws or not. It's pure persecution. They are given absolutely no choice in the matter. Can you name me a Christian country that enforces strict Christian laws on Muslims under the threat of torture or death?

Do you not see that that's what's bothering us in the west?

By various countries, are you referring to the list you provided in another thread from the Christian Broadcasting Network? What countries would they be? Pakistan? Bangladesh? Saudi Arabia? Iraq? Well, I'm from Pakistan, and I can say your claim is false. I never underwent any persecution whatsoever. My mother's brother spent his entire adult life in Saudi Arabia. He's extremely well off and he never underwent persecution. I have numerous Bengali friends - Bangladesh was formerly East Pakistan. They're very proud of the freedom they enjoy in Bangladesh and they've never complained about your "Islamofascists". So I believe if you entire premise is based on googling up reports about oppression, murder, rape, etc. I suggest you actually take a trip to one of these countries and then come with your wild accusations.

As for your second last question, we are doing exactly that in Iraq; enforcing our own brand of "freedom", "liberty" and "democracy" in Iraq. After all, did our President not say it was a crusade?

Hardheadedness and closed-mindedness often deigns, laughably and in error, to point out ignorance.
I have an open mind on this entire issue, as I've stated already. Do you? It wouldn't appear so. You'd rather dismiss someone as "ignorant" and I think you'd have a mighty difficult time justifying that supposition if we compared who in here is more open-minded as well as knowledgeable about the world around us.

I believe I have first-hand knowledge about the region, the culture, the religion and the people you make blatantly false accusation against. I am more so in contact with them, in mosques, social gatherings, festivals, etc. Your opinions are clearly biased and bigoted. Furthermore, your knowledge is limited to Googling up information, analyzing them with your own preconceived notions and spewing out hateful attacks on other religions. Your stating that you have an "open-mind" does not make it true.

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
You seem to be very confused between bashing Islam in general and bashing the Islamofascists.

You are mistaken. Sultan is offended because you are bashing 'Islamofascists', of which he is most certainly a member.

Be wary of extremists willing to murder their children.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: Sultan
Just starting this thread does not mean your previous remarks and comments should be ignored. You have vehemently attacked Muslims in many threads.

I have?

Prove it. Make your case, and don't give me any of the "It's plain to see." crap either. Show me specific quotes I've made where I have "vehemently attacked Muslims" and provide the links to the threads as well. If you don't I'll know you are just blowing smoke. And you are just blowing smoke, improperly trying to malign someone because you can't stand the thought of someone cricisizing Islam or Muslims in any form. You, sir, are intolerant.

The word Islamofascists is your own creation and a figment of your imagination. Islam does not have a militant portion, people are militant. There is no militancy taught or prescribed by any religion which includes Islam. Again, this goes on to show your bigoted and biased nature by explicitly stating that Islam has a "militant" portion. Ridiculous.

I don't even need to respond to that crock. It's highly apparent to everyone with even an inkling of what's going on in this world there are large groups of Muslims using their religion to foment fascist acts, hence - Islamofascists. Denying that indicates that you are nothing more than an apologist in complete denial.

I answered this question of yours as well. I informed you that there is no central hierarchy in Islam such as the Pope - neither is there a "influential group". Countries of Muslim majorities are taking action. I mentioned this in our previous debate, and I mention this now, yet you conviniently choose to ignore it. Therefore I state, your ignorance, or rather biased attitude towards Islam and Muslims cannot be argued with. The article you cited mentions 2500 intellectuals from 23 countries, which is neither an influential group, nor is their act forceful. Many more scholars and intellectuals have spoken against terrorism and terrorist acts before 30th October. If you want to know of an organization, you would only need to look up CAIR's statements, an organization here right at home.

Yet a group has still presented itself, en mass, and have done precisely what I requested. Again, I don't give a flying leap if individuals have given lip service. It does nothing for the poor perception of Muslims in the US and elsewhere and it does nothing to alleviate the fears in the west concerning Muslims and their true intentions. Once more for the comprehension impaired - Words are meaningless. Actions speak louder than words and we are not seeing action from the Muslims.

haha. I've to hand it to you. Without acknowledging the substance of what these intellectuals and scholars said, you criticize them for speaking independently and not as a group. Bravo. Your hate is more evident with every post. You just HAVE to say something against Muslims and Islam.

Yet another weak attempt at maligning me? How quaint. :roll: That seems to be your tactic and if you believe you're convincing anyone of your position by doing so you are sadly mistaken.

By various countries, are you referring to the list you provided in another thread from the Christian Broadcasting Network? What countries would they be? Pakistan? Bangladesh? Saudi Arabia? Iraq? Well, I'm from Pakistan, and I can say your claim is false. I never underwent any persecution whatsoever. My mother's brother spent his entire adult life in Saudi Arabia. He's extremely well off and he never underwent persecution. I have numerous Bengali friends - Bangladesh was formerly East Pakistan. They're very proud of the freedom they enjoy in Bangladesh and they've never complained about your "Islamofascists". So I believe if you entire premise is based on googling up reports about oppression, murder, rape, etc. I suggest you actually take a trip to one of these countries and then come with your wild accusations.

Why should I do that when I can speak with my Iranian and Turkish friends and ask them? They know the siutation at least as well as you, and actually are quite a bit more moderate as well as more informed than you. I'll get some more information while golfing with my Iranian buddy on Saturday.

What was that? Oh, you didn't know such a big bigot, Muslim-hating, knuckle-dragger like myself could have Muslim friends? :shock;

Well now you do.

I believe I have first-hand knowledge about the region, the culture, the religion and the people you make blatantly false accusation against. I am more so in contact with them, in mosques, social gatherings, festivals, etc. Your opinions are clearly biased and bigoted. Furthermore, your knowledge is limited to Googling up information, analyzing them with your own preconceived notions and spewing out hateful attacks on other religions. Your stating that you have an "open-mind" does not make it true.

You're making assumptions as you don't know Jack Squat about me, Sultan. Then again, you instantly seem to jump to knee-jerk conclusions so you can label anyone in here who might criticize Islam a "BIGOT." Your instant brand of hostility belies you and your character. Learn how to discuss, counter, and accept criticism when it's given or you end up looking little more than a fist-pounding, closed-minded militant yourself.

 

[Sultan]

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
You seem to be very confused between bashing Islam in general and bashing the Islamofascists.

You are mistaken. Sultan is offended because you are bashing 'Islamofascists', of which he is most certainly a member.

Be wary of extremists willing to murder their children.

why am i not surprised to find you reply to my post? and that too with nothing thats remotely in line with the topic of the thread? 🙂

well carry on, dont let me stop you. I just give you a reason to boost your post count

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
You seem to be very confused between bashing Islam in general and bashing the Islamofascists.

You are mistaken. Sultan is offended because you are bashing 'Islamofascists', of which he is most certainly a member.

Be wary of extremists willing to murder their children.

I am trying to be open-minded and give him the benefit of the doubt, but the more I read of his replies the more I am beginning to think this is absolutely true.

 

[Sultan]

I have?

Prove it. Make your case, and don't give me any of the "It's plain to see." crap either. Show me specific quotes I've made where I have "vehemently attacked Muslims" and provide the links to the threads as well. If you don't I'll know you are just blowing smoke. And you are just blowing smoke, improperly trying to malign someone because you can't stand the thought of someone cricisizing Islam or Muslims in any form. You, sir, are intolerant.

From this very thread:

...whenever you see someone broach the subject of Islam to criticize the militant portion of it...

By falsely implying a religion has a "militant" portion is itself an example of your biased and bigoted nature. By the way, I have never criticized any religion, and you criticizing another's religion without knowledge of the beliefs and teachings is whats intolerant.

I don't even need to respond to that crock. It's highly apparent to everyone with even an inkling of what's going on in this world there are large groups of Muslims using their religion to foment fascist acts, hence - Islamofascists. Denying that indicates that you are nothing more than an apologist in complete denial.

You are the only one who uses that imaginary term. And oh, Rabid above also just used it in the above post.

Yet a group has still presented itself, en mass, and have done precisely what I requested. Again, I don't give a flying leap if individuals have given lip service. It does nothing for the poor perception of Muslims in the US and elsewhere and it does nothing to alleviate the fears in the west concerning Muslims and their true intentions. Once more for the comprehension impaired - Words are meaningless. Actions speak louder than words and we are not seeing action from the Muslims.

Good to blow your own horn, but these people didnt do what they did based on your request. Muslims dont have to issue statements to please the west. Again, I gave you examples of action, and you again ignored them.

Yet another weak attempt at maligning me? How quaint. That seems to be your tactic and if you believe you're convincing anyone of your position by doing so you are sadly mistaken.

I dont need to malign you. Your words spoke for themselves. You chose to ignore the substance of what these scholars and intellectuals said and still condemned them for not speaking as a group.

Why should I do that when I can speak with my Iranian and Turkish friends and ask them? They know the siutation at least as well as you, and actually are quite a bit more moderate as well as more informed than you. I'll get some more information while golfing with my Iranian buddy on Saturday.

What was that? Oh, you didn't know such a big bigot, Muslim-hating, knuckle-dragger like myself could have Muslim friends? :shock;

Well now you do.

Your limited interaction with a few Iranian and Turks cannot be compared with my daily meetings with dozens of Muslims at the mosque.

You're making assumptions as you don't know Jack Squat about me, Sultan. Then again, you instantly seem to jump to knee-jerk conclusions so you can label anyone in here who might criticize Islam a "BIGOT." Your instant brand of hostility belies you and your character. Learn how to discuss, counter, and accept criticism when it's given or you end up looking little more than a fist-pounding, closed-minded militant yourself

My assumptions are based on your words - and many of them have to do with criticizing Islam and Muslims.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: Sultan

I have?

Prove it. Make your case, and don't give me any of the "It's plain to see." crap either. Show me specific quotes I've made where I have "vehemently attacked Muslims" and provide the links to the threads as well. If you don't I'll know you are just blowing smoke. And you are just blowing smoke, improperly trying to malign someone because you can't stand the thought of someone cricisizing Islam or Muslims in any form. You, sir, are intolerant.

From this very thread:

...whenever you see someone broach the subject of Islam to criticize the militant portion of it...

By falsely implying a religion has a "militant" portion is itself an example of your biased and bigoted nature. By the way, I have never criticized any religion, and you criticizing another's religion without knowledge of the beliefs and teachings is whats intolerant.

That's your idea of vehemently attacking Muslims?

LOL. You have a wild imagination.

You are the only one who uses that imaginary term. And oh, Rabid above also just used it in the above post.

I am not the only one that uses that term. If I were I'd happily take credit for inventing it and I cannot. Funny how so many people can reconize the Islamofascists, except you. I'd say you're in the minority in yor assertion, a very small minority. If Islamofascists weren't real, these Muslim Intellectuals wouldn't have gone to the UN in the first place.

What is al Qaeda in your definition? A misunderstood splinter group who 'aren't real Muslims?' :roll: That's the usual apologist excuse.

Good to blow your own horn, but these people didnt do what they did based on your request. Muslims dont have to issue statements to please the west. Again, I gave you examples of action, and you again ignored them.

Nice red herring. I didn't claim they did it by my request. And sure, Muslims don't have to issue statements to the west. Go ahead and let the west have the perception Muslims are killers with bad intentions. That's not the problem o Muslims, is it? :roll:

It's called communication, Sultan, as well as perception. A group of bad Muslims fostered this perception in the first place. It takes a little public relations to change the perception. If Muslims don't get some PR out there, if they don't communicate, it's not hurting the US one bit, it's hurting Muslims. And since it was a group of theirs that began this poor perception, it's the responsibility of Muslims to clear it up. Clean up the mess your brethren made, understand?

I dont need to malign you. Your words spoke for themselves. You chose to ignore the substance of what these scholars and intellectuals said and still condemned them for not speaking as a group.

I praised a group that spoke up and you still take a steamy dump on me. Does that make me wrong, or YOU?

Your limited interaction with a few Iranian and Turks cannot be compared with my daily meetings with dozens of Muslims at the mosque.

All it means is that I am not ignorant of Muslims or Muslim culture as you attempted to claim. I didn't claim to have the smae amount of interaction as you, but that's another nice red herring.

My assumptions are based on your words - and many of them have to do with criticizing Islam and Muslims.

Militant Islam and militant Muslims. Get the facts straight and stop twisting my words. I've already told you this and you patently ignore it. Stop being so daft about it.

 

[sandorski]

This just proves the premise: Just because you haven't heard it, doesn't mean it hasn't happened. The Media is always quick to jump on Bad News, in fact the complaint from many Christians has always been how only Bad Apples get Media exposure making Christians look bad. The same thing happens to Muslims, Communists, Europeans, Americans, yadda yadda ya. There is a whole other Reality out there that rarely is seen from the Media.

Most in the Mid-East live lives the same as Americans. They wake up in the morning, get the kids ready for school, goto work, come home, eat, raise their kids, sleep, repeat. They don't spend their day shooting at neighbours, plotting attacks on foreigners, blowing themselves up, or yadda yadda ya. There is more in Common between various people than there are differences.

As such, Humans react in very predictable ways, if the tables were turned, Muslims would think Christians were the Barbarians for the same reasons given to call Muslims Barbarians. It is less the Principles involved in various Religions and more the Social/Political status of those involved that determines peoples Actions. I know that many want the Easy Answer to Life's questions, but Easy Answers are usually Wrong and lead to the comfort of Insular Thinking that causes most of the problems experienced through History. In this day and age, Insular Thinking is the most dangerous thing that will undermine Civilization, even more dangerous than Terrorists with WMD.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: sandorski
This just proves the premise: Just because you haven't heard it, doesn't mean it hasn't happened.

:disgust:

Good lord. Sometimes I wonder why I even bother?

 

[Sultan]

That's your idea of vehemently attacking muslims?

LOL. You have a wild imagination.

Thats one example right there. You have a really biased mindset.

I am not the only one that uses that term. If I were I'd happily take credit for inventing it and I cannot. Funny how so many people can reconize the Islamofascists, except you. I'd say you're in the minority in yor assertion, a very small minority. If Islamofascists weren't real, these muslim Intellectuals wouldn't have gone to the UN in the first place.

What is al Qaeda in your definition? A misunderstood splinter group who 'aren't real muslims?' That's the usual apologist excuse.

You are among the minority who uses that term. Before the above post, you were the only person using it on this forum. Everyone who wishes to dispute my argument that this is a coined up word used by a minortiy of people who wish to expouse hatred amongst the world's people only need to google up the term. Most of those who use this term are bloggers who hold a similar mindset as the individual who's post I am reply to.

My definition of Al-Qaeda is a terrorist organization. Period. It has nothing to do with me, as a Muslim. I dont believe in their ideology, their political agenda or their militant/terrorist actions.

Nice red herring. I didn't claim they did it by my request. And sure, muslims don't have to issue statements to the west. Go ahead and let the west have the perception muslims are killers with bad intentions. That's not the problem o muslims, is it?

It's called communication, Sultan, as well as perception. A group of bad muslims fostered this perception in the first place. It takes a little public relations to change the perception. If muslims don't get some PR out there, if they don't communicate, it's not hurting the US one bit, it's hurting muslims. And since it was a group of theirs that began this poor perception, it's the responsibility of muslims to clear it up. Clean up the mess your brethren made, understand?

The West can have their perception. The East has its own perception of the West. I dont see the West issuing statements or clarifications to negate those perceptions. Thats a ridiculous argument. Everyone needs to issue statements to change perceptions of each other. Very good. I didnt claim the individuals issued that statement at your request, I said they didnt do so based on your request.

Muslims need a lot to do to sort the problems existing on the domestic front rather than "communicate" to appease or change perceptions of others. I dont see how the Muslims will be hurt if they dont change the West's perception. They get hurt regardless. The Bosnians didnt have any "perceptions" against them. Neither did the Chechnyans. Nor the Afghans. All were victims of terror and aggression.

And by the way, Muslims like myself often do "communicate" to tell biased individuals like you to stop bashing Islam and Muslims, providing evidence after evidence to prove the opposite of what you claim, yet preconcieved notions such as yours arent changing. Go figure.

I praised a group that spoke up and you still take a steamy dump on me. Does that make me wrong, or YOU?

Nice spin. My statement was regarding you not acknowledging many statements issued in the past by Muslims intellectuals and scholars to which you commented they did so individually. I have provided evidence in the past regarding scholars who DID issue statements condemning terrorist actions, yet you were unsatisfied and still insisted on bashing Muslims.

All it means is that I am not ignorant of muslims or muslim culture as you attempted to claim. I didn't claim to have the smae amount of interaction as you, but that's another nice red herring.

When you claim the existence of "Militant Islam", it leads me to believe otherwise. I never said that you have the same amount of interaction with them, but you did claim to know of countries where your so-called Islamofascists murder, oppress, etc, etc to enforce their own brand of Islam. I gave you counter-arguments from the perspectives of those who live in countries with Muslim majority, including my own perspective of Pakistan, but again, you conveniently choose to ignore these opinion.

Militant Islam and militant muslims. Get the facts straight and stop twisting my words. I've already told you this and you patently ignore it. Stop being so daft about it.

Again, there is no such thing as militant Islam or militant Muslims. Those who wish to harm innocent individuals, no matter what they claim, leave the fold of Islam. Islam has very clear teachings on not harming innocent civilians. True many of these militants claim they are committing the act to please God, but would you believe a murderer on his justification of committing horrendous acts? I wouldnt. They're guilty and their justification, whatever it may be, is just complete crap. Your insistence to denigrate a religion and its 1.2 billion followers based on the actions of a few, who have clearly left not only the religion but also the human race shows your biased nature.

You even ignored most of sandorski's post in which he correctly argues that just because you have not heard about Muslims taking action and condemning the militants/terrorists, that does not mean it is not happening. He is also correct when he says:

In this day and age, Insular Thinking is the most dangerous thing that will undermine Civilization