A general discussion on personal attacks in P&N

[Fern]

Originally posted by: apoppin
Perhaps we should ask the regulars in P&N what they want?
--a stickied thread in P&N

Completely unmoderated might not be a good idea ... or maybe it is

I think the moderating should continue.

It's annoying as hell to scroll through pages and pages of personal insults with a bunch of nested quotes. If I was a mod I'd just delete these wastes of space-type posts.

Some people in P&N are looking for content and reasonable debate.

The freer use of profanity makes the personal attacks seem much harsher and more offensive, IMO.

There will always be personal attacks, I believe. Let's just make sure the more flagrant offenses are moderated (Mod deleted/edited posts would be my choice, I'm not big on vacations or bans for these type of occasional offences).

And let's encourage the Mods who participate in P&N to try and lead by good example.

Fern

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Fern

Originally posted by: apoppin
Perhaps we should ask the regulars in P&N what they want?
--a stickied thread in P&N

Completely unmoderated might not be a good idea ... or maybe it is

I think the moderating should continue.

It's annoying as hell to scroll through pages and pages of personal insults with a bunch of nested quotes. If I was a mod I'd just delete these wastes of space-type posts.

Some people in P&N are looking for content and reasonable debate.

The freer use of profanity makes the personal attacks seem much harsher and more offensive, IMO.

There will always be personal attacks, I believe. Let's just make sure the more flagrant offenses are moderated (Mod deleted/edited posts would be my choice, I'm not big on vacations or bans for these type of occasional offences).

And let's encourage the Mods who participate in P&N to try and lead by good example.

Fern

We have been, in fact myself, Perknose, Hayabusa Rider and Rio Rebel have been model members when we post over there.

 

[Fern]

I want it clear that I was not saying you weren't.

I was trying to be discreet. I choose not to mention names. I feel like there has been improvement in the last week in this area.

But even if there had never been issue as we had last week, I think the remark you bolded stands as a good suggestion as far as personal insults in P&N go, and moderating the place. Which is what I took the sublect of this thread to be about. So, nobody has had to *mis-behave* for me to make that remark anyway.

Fern

 

[Rio Rebel]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Fern

Originally posted by: apoppin
Perhaps we should ask the regulars in P&N what they want?
--a stickied thread in P&N

Completely unmoderated might not be a good idea ... or maybe it is

I think the moderating should continue.

It's annoying as hell to scroll through pages and pages of personal insults with a bunch of nested quotes. If I was a mod I'd just delete these wastes of space-type posts.

Some people in P&N are looking for content and reasonable debate.

The freer use of profanity makes the personal attacks seem much harsher and more offensive, IMO.

There will always be personal attacks, I believe. Let's just make sure the more flagrant offenses are moderated (Mod deleted/edited posts would be my choice, I'm not big on vacations or bans for these type of occasional offences).

And let's encourage the Mods who participate in P&N to try and lead by good example.

Fern

We have been, in fact myself, Perknose, Hayabusa Rider and Rio Rebel have been model members when we post over there.

He meant to say "myself, Perknose and Hayabusa Rider have been model members when we post over there, and Rio Rebel plans to be from now on."

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: Rio Rebel

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Fern

Originally posted by: apoppin
Perhaps we should ask the regulars in P&N what they want?
--a stickied thread in P&N

Completely unmoderated might not be a good idea ... or maybe it is

I think the moderating should continue.

It's annoying as hell to scroll through pages and pages of personal insults with a bunch of nested quotes. If I was a mod I'd just delete these wastes of space-type posts.

Some people in P&N are looking for content and reasonable debate.

The freer use of profanity makes the personal attacks seem much harsher and more offensive, IMO.

There will always be personal attacks, I believe. Let's just make sure the more flagrant offenses are moderated (Mod deleted/edited posts would be my choice, I'm not big on vacations or bans for these type of occasional offences).

And let's encourage the Mods who participate in P&N to try and lead by good example.

Fern

We have been, in fact myself, Perknose, Hayabusa Rider and Rio Rebel have been model members when we post over there.

He meant to say "myself, Perknose and Hayabusa Rider have been model members when we post over there, and Rio Rebel plans to be from now on."

LOL, you know what they say about "plans"

 

[Rio Rebel]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: Rio Rebel
He meant to say "myself, Perknose and Hayabusa Rider have been model members when we post over there, and Rio Rebel plans to be from now on."

LOL, you know what they say about "plans"

Racist.

 

[ayabe]

Ohh Alchemize, the irony of this post.

Just today you called me and another poster an asshole directly:

Text

 

[alchemize]

Originally posted by: ayabe
Ohh Alchemize, the irony of this post.

Just today you called me and another poster an asshole directly:

Text

This coming from someone who compares me to a child molester because I work in insurance? Frankly, I've got much fouler words forthcoming for you, but I want to know the boundaries before I let loose. Since you decided to PM me, I'll let you really know what I think.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Personally, I have a policy and stated such. I do recall a member calling me out for that. Now who was that?
That was my error. I should have just done it. The reasons I haven't are that for now are somewhat complex, however I believe a direct "f=ck you" warrants an immediate time out. That's my opinion.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: Fern

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: apoppin
Perhaps we should ask the regulars in P&N what they want?
--a stickied thread in P&N

Completely unmoderated might not be a good idea ... or maybe it is

What are the odds that stickied thread would turn into a flame fest?? :laugh:

Sounds like a challenge ... and lots of fun to read ... let's DO it!
:thumbsup:

Maybe we could have another forum - to let the pressure off P&N - completely unmoderated --for banned posters and posters that want to wade deep into crap and wallow in the flames and name calling - anything goes! ... extra ad and pop-up heavy of course ... maybe not even hosted by ATF


Call it "anything goes" ... make the posters sign a digital disclaimer - and NOT for children!

if someone is banned, they are locked out of the regular forums as usual AND they get thrown into "Forum Anything Goes Hell" ... or Purgatory ... depends on how you want to look at it.

I'm pretty sure that already exists. A place where some of the banned hang out etc and also some (non-banned) AT forums members. It has no rules etc.

I visited once. Wasn't very interesting to me. Mostly a bunch of raunchy insults being traded in an effort to be humorous.

I'll see if I can find & link it later.

Fern

Sounds like My place, TFNN

We have a "gimp box" for exceedingly annoying members. It has it's uses, and it might have some use here, where people who are over the top could go and live in the Dante's Inferno they create for themselves.

 

[Perknose]

Originally posted by: alchemize

Originally posted by: ayabe
Ohh Alchemize, the irony of this post.

Just today you called me and another poster an asshole directly:

Text

This coming from someone who compares me to a child molester because I work in insurance? Frankly, I've got much fouler words forthcoming for you, but I want to know the boundaries before I let loose. Since you decided to PM me, I'll let you really know what I think.

^^^ And here we have it, a direct preview of how posters who "want" more respectful discourse in P&N respond to each other... AND IN NEAR RECORD TIME!

Anyone (I know you do, "al") remember the ill-fated, poster driven attempt at P&N reform of a couple of years ago? Most EVERYONE hopped eagerly on-board, saying all the right things about wanting a kinder, gentler forum -- it lasted about one day before devolving into a flame fest.

Hey, listen, I should know: posting in P&N just naturally gets your blood up, and, before you know it, you're slinging mud with the other swine in the pig pen.

Almost NO ONE seems immune from this impulse, so, I say, just let it more or less be.

Reform of P&N is an illusion.

 

[Rio Rebel]

Interesting. From the original post:

The first criteria is obvious. The second is mostly obvious, with the last comparative meaning "you are a hitler/chavez/member of NAMBLA/reach around/etc."

And from the same poster, in ayabe's example thread:

Another Michael Moore wannabe enters the fray!

And another of his quotes in the same thread:

Hey, guess what, you're full of shit! I've forgotten more about the insurance industry than you'll ever know (since everything you learned was from a Michael Moore movie), but that doesn't mean I can't be objective about it, as I've been in this entire thread. Can't say the same for any of you ignorant trolls...assholes like you and ayabe that question my integrity simply based on the industry I happen to work in...

See how hard it is to moderate that madhouse? (And I myself am guilty on one count of the old "f u" response.)

As a wise man once said, "There is none righteous. No, not one."

 

[alchemize]

Originally posted by: Perknose

Originally posted by: alchemize

Originally posted by: ayabe
Ohh Alchemize, the irony of this post.

Just today you called me and another poster an asshole directly:

Text

This coming from someone who compares me to a child molester because I work in insurance? Frankly, I've got much fouler words forthcoming for you, but I want to know the boundaries before I let loose. Since you decided to PM me, I'll let you really know what I think.

^^^ And here we have it, a direct preview of how posters who "want" more respectful discourse in P&N respond to each other... AND IN NEAR RECORD TIME!

Anyone (I know you do, "al") remember the ill-fated, poster driven attempt at P&N reform of a couple of years ago? Most EVERYONE hopped eagerly on-board, saying all the right things about wanting a kinder, gentler forum -- it lasted about one day before devolving into a flame fest.

Hey, listen, I should know: posting in P&N just naturally gets your blood up, and, before you know it, you're slinging mud with the other swine in the pig pen.

Almost NO ONE seems immune from this impulse, so, I say, just let it more or less be.

Reform of P&N is an illusion.

Actually Perky, Ayabe and myself have exchanged olive branches But that's not the point...

I do remember the "reform", but I don't quite recall what my opinion on it was at the time. There's another politics forum I belong to, and there was an attempt at reform, then it went to "no rules" (other than legal type stuff). Enter at your own risk. It seems to work OK, yes there are people that constantly personally attack each other, but since there is no rule against it, nobody complains!

It's hard to not fling poo when you've got it in your hand and you just got splattered with some...that's life in the monkey cage

 

[ayabe]

I admit I crossed the line and prompted Alchemize to respond the way he did, I just didn't realize where the animosity stemmed from.

He and I have discussed it, apologies have been exchanged and accepted and we're moving forward with a better understanding and a need for civility. Sorry to drag more drama into this.

 

[Rio Rebel]

What Perk and I are trying to tell you is that you can't get rid of the drama. It's like taking a group of jr high boys to a strip club and telling them not to look at any naked women. It simply can't be done.

IMO, there are two answers: Either we go in like a swat team and crack the hell out of it, *and keep cracking over and over and over*, or we just keep trying to contain the mess in one forum and let people beat each other up.

Of course, there is a third option - nuking the whole forum - but then that just sends it back into our other forums that we are trying to protect

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Rio Rebel
What Perk and I are trying to tell you is that you can't get rid of the drama. It's like taking a group of jr high boys to a strip club and telling them not to look at any naked women. It simply can't be done.

IMO, there are two answers: Either we go in like a swat team and crack the hell out of it, *and keep cracking over and over and over*, or we just keep trying to contain the mess in one forum and let people beat each other up.

Of course, there is a third option - nuking the whole forum - but then that just sends it back into our other forums that we are trying to protect

first of all, i hope you know nothing about taking a group of jr high boys to a strip club

Secondly, i don't think getting rid of it is a good idea at all ... but we could rename P&N to P&R - "politics and religion" - and allow legitimate NEWS discussions in OT.

Finally, Fern, i took a look at your link and it IS a moderated forum ... i am talking about creating still another "anything goes hell forum" that is completely unrestricted, has a digital disclaimer and age requirement and is ALSO OK for banned members - after all, even banned members need love
--and also have dollars to spend on sponsored products.


EDIT: actually .. it should be 'Politics or religion'
-or just 'politics' or 'hot topics'

 

[yllus]

Originally posted by: Rio Rebel
IMO, there are two answers: Either we go in like a swat team and crack the hell out of it, *and keep cracking over and over and over*

I would love for this to happen. I'll hold firm that there is no reason that P&N cannot be reformed to abide by the "no personal attacks" rule. Other forums manage to pull it off, after all.

Give a big huge notice as a pinned topic that X is the drop-dead date for personal attacks being allowed. After that, no mercy - one week vacations for first offences, bans for a second. Maybe it'll thin out the crowd, but so what? IMO that's not the kind of poster you want here anyways.

Put in the mostly one-time effort and clean it up, guys. I will admit that Ars has a built-in edge in that members must pay to post in that forum area, but I think you might emulate that by making it viewable only by registered members so that only people who come here for other reasons end up crossing over - not the crazies with a politics-only agenda. Otherwise it just takes some elbow grease.

 

[Rio Rebel]

Whichever solution is chosen, I would not support allowing banned members in there, and I doubt that this idea would ever get support from any senior mods. Too much time is spent dealing with idiocy.

For that same reason, yllus, I don't think your suggestion is really a one-time cleanup. I think it is going to require more effort than most of us are willing to put in at this point. But I don't speak for all of us, so we'll see.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Rio Rebel
Whichever solution is chosen, I would not support allowing banned members in there, and I doubt that this idea would ever get support from any senior mods. Too much time is spent dealing with idiocy.

For that same reason, yllus, I don't think your suggestion is really a one-time cleanup. I think it is going to require more effort than most of us are willing to put in at this point. But I don't speak for all of us, so we'll see.

What yllus is asking is for us to go back to the way it was when we were banning members left and right for personal attacks which led to a lot of problems like distrust and accusations of Moderator Bias. Even then it was hard to get a handle on the personal attacks.

 

[Narmer]

There are some (cough *Shivetya* cough) that like to insult people on the regular. When he does it to me I let it go once but get extremely personal and brutal should he repeat it. Either we let the insults flow freely or we strictly enforce. Then again. P&N was made for insults...

 

[JEDIYoda]

insulting people and crossing the line are 2 different things....

I personally believe that we all are allowed to walk on that line so to speak.
yet when you actually cross that line being a member or a mod retribution will follow!!

Peace!!

 

[blackllotus]

If you want to see what a forum looks where basically everything goes, look no further than perspectives.com If you can read a whole thread in one of the domestic or foreign affairs forums without wanting to gouge your eyes out then... I don't have anything nice to say

 

[SickBeast]

I agree with apoppin and think there should be a hell forum for banned users and a lack of moderation (and in fact I have suggested it before).

I stay out of P&N. Once one of my (rare) OT threads de-generated into P&N, at which point it was moved there. I was probably flamed at least 50 times, retaliated a bit, and then was very close to being given my first vacation...

It does need more moderation. Just because it involves politics, it does not mean that people should be insulting one another the way they do in there. :thumbsdown:

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: apoppin
Finally, Fern, i took a look at your link and it IS a moderated forum ... -snip-

Umm, I never gave a link, couldn't find it in my *favorites* (I prolly never saved it.)

It was some site that the banned and vacationed members posted at. But it was several years ago that I visited it, way back when somebody got hit with the ban stick & the site popped up in discussion about the banning. I followed up and visited the site, but I have no way now of finding it again. I don't know if even still exists?

Fern

 

[fierydemise]

You'll never make P&N civil because by its very nature politics makes people angry and the claws come out, on a small forum a couple of my friends run we have a politics section and things can start civil but after about 15 posts (max) things go crazy and the attacks start flying.