A general discussion on personal attacks in P&N

[alchemize]

The other thread got locked but this probably is better in it's own thread since that was about a specific person.

I think this is an issue that the moderators need to address a little more clearly, especially for P&N. While the moderation issue has been addressed, I don't believe the personal attacks issue has.

IMHO, there should be wide latitude in P&N for "personal attacks". Only when a "personal attack" is egregious should it be moderated on.

What exactly is an egregious personal attack? Here's my opinion of some criteria:

- Has nothing to do with the topic/thread, or is thinly veiled "on-topic" just to deliver the attack
- Uses excessive vulgarity, profanity, maliciousness, or extreme comparative insults
- Is truly "personal" - specific to the person being attacked


The first criteria is obvious. The second is mostly obvious, with the last comparative meaning "you are a hitler/chavez/member of NAMBLA/reach around/etc." The last I think is a key area as well, some give out more personal info than others (i.e. Dave). As much as I dislike Dave's posting style, I don't think it's appropriate to bring up his past in personal insults.

I think everyone needs to have a thick skin in P&N. Discussion of politics has always been heated, always will be. Expect to be called a moron, a moonbat, a repulikkkan, etc. But I also think a line does need to be drawn, and it should be as clear as possible.

Thoughts?

 

[olds]

My thought is that any mention of a person is a personal attack. "Attack the ideas, not the person".
IE

Not acceptable:
You are an idiot for thinking that the Democrats can fix this country.

Acceptable:
The Democrats are idiots and will never fix the country.

Now of course some Democrat will take that personally and that is where we draw the line. They will have to learn to get over themselves.

 

[dmcowen674]

There is just way too much going after the messenger and not the message all around.

Expect it a little more in OT but it is overdone in P&N.

On the otherhand it is acting just like Congress.

 

[bsobel]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
There is just way too much going after the messenger and not the message all around. Expect it a little more in OT but it is overdone in P&N. On the otherhand it is acting just like Congress.

"You should be thrilled, you guys are always saying how you don't like the sick and old.
You get paid extra for talking out the side of your mouth?
You apparently like being a little man.
Apparently with a nickname like yours make more money off children.
See non heartsurgeons post from a Princton Professor quack Freeman Dyson
The only conclusion here is you are a sad man."

Dave, you are correct.

 

[JD50]

Originally posted by: bsobel

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
There is just way too much going after the messenger and not the message all around. Expect it a little more in OT but it is overdone in P&N. On the otherhand it is acting just like Congress.

"You should be thrilled, you guys are always saying how you don't like the sick and old.
You get paid extra for talking out the side of your mouth?
You apparently like being a little man.
Apparently with a nickname like yours make more money off children.
See non heartsurgeons post from a Princton Professor quack Freeman Dyson
The only conclusion here is you are a sad man."

Dave, you are correct.

Zing!

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: bsobel

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
There is just way too much going after the messenger and not the message all around. Expect it a little more in OT but it is overdone in P&N. On the otherhand it is acting just like Congress.

"You should be thrilled, you guys are always saying how you don't like the sick and old.
You get paid extra for talking out the side of your mouth?
You apparently like being a little man.
Apparently with a nickname like yours make more money off children.
See non heartsurgeons post from a Princton Professor quack Freeman Dyson
The only conclusion here is you are a sad man."

Dave, you are correct.

Awwwwwww I'm touched, you really do read my posts. :thumbsup:

You should then be able to clearly see I dish very little compared to what I get.

 

[jjones]

I rather enjoy reading the inflamatory posts when I wander into that forum on occasion. You guys in P&N sure know how to have a good time.

And Dave sure is a good sport considering all the vitriol that gets heaped upon him.

 

[ProfJohn]

Check out the last line from this quote, that is the kind of stuff that needs to stop.

You disagree with me or anyone else, fine. But to throw insults like this crosses the line.

Originally posted by: zinfamous

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
As a country we ?give? away as much as a $1 trillion per year to certain groups via ?social spending.? I am not even counting Social Security because we buy into that in theory.

You have told this lie repeatedly without fact. You have been refuted with links to the White House Budget Documents. You have misrepresented the Federal deficit without acknowledging the total annual Federal Debt which exceeds this annual deficit figure by nealy 200%. You have refused to acknowledge that we now pay more than $400 billion a year to service this debt.

My friend, you have no clothes. You have been exposed. Your manipulation and fear will no longer work.

Some facts for you...

link 3
Pell Grants: money given to poor people without need of pay back $13 billion in FY 2008

let me pick one of your facts, or at least your opinion of this fact, and blow it up in front of you.

"Pell grants = money given to poor people?" Are you seriously this deluded?

I'm not a poor person. Never have been. I received Pell grants for 3 of my years in undergrad. This is not "money given to poor people." It's federal aid to provide an education for our students. Don't even think that that money isn't given back. The point is that my education grant me a degree that allows me to be competitive and contribute.

What is this spilling from your mouth? I didn't know they stack shit that high.

 

[apoppin]

where is this from?

 

[ProfJohn]

Originally posted by: apoppin
where is this from?

http://forums.anandtech.com/me...erthread=y&STARTPAGE=3

 

[JD50]

Look, I know these personal attacks are annoying, but nothing is going to change. Harvey is the king of thread crapping and personal attacks, and he's a senior mod. The only way that they will start enforcing the "no personal attacks" rule is if he stops, and I doubt that will ever happen. Plus, you have Dave, the king of trolls, posting whatever the hell he wants, twisting articles, insulting people in every single post, with nothing ever done to him. So you guys might as well stop bitching about the personal attacks because its a waste of time. Just know that it is perfectly acceptable to attack anyone for just about any reason, and its perfectly acceptable to post the same old crap in every single thread. Have some fun with it, join in on the attacks yourself, it will help relieve some stress. Everything goes in P&N, so enjoy it.

BTW, I am not blaming the mods for any of this, I know you guys have a tough job, and it must be even tougher when you have some of the apparently invincible members posting a bunch of crap every single day. If you can't touch these members, then you can't go banning others for attacks either, I don't envy the position you all have been put it in at all. With the exception of a few (IMO) questionable bans, you guys have done a great job not implementing a double standard.

So really, until their is a rash of unfair bans, lets give the "personal attack" posts a rest. All this does is make the mods get tired of reading these threads, so when there if there ever is an obvious double standard, no one will care because they'll be sick of these posts.

 

[compuwiz1]

Originally posted by: JD50
Look, I know these personal attacks are annoying, but nothing is going to change. Harvey is the king of thread crapping and personal attacks, and he's a senior mod. The only way that they will start enforcing the "no personal attacks" rule is if he stops, and I doubt that will ever happen. Plus, you have Dave, the king of trolls, posting whatever the hell he wants, twisting articles, insulting people in every single post, with nothing ever done to him. So you guys might as well stop bitching about the personal attacks because its a waste of time. Just know that it is perfectly acceptable to attack anyone for just about any reason, and its perfectly acceptable to post the same old crap in every single thread. Have some fun with it, join in on the attacks yourself, it will help relieve some stress. Everything goes in P&N, so enjoy it.

BTW, I am not blaming the mods for any of this, I know you guys have a tough job, and it must be even tougher when you have some of the apparently invincible members posting a bunch of crap every single day. If you can't touch these members, then you can't go banning others for attacks either, I don't envy the position you all have been put it in at all. With the exception of a few (IMO) questionable bans, you guys have done a great job not implementing a double standard.

So really, until their is a rash of unfair bans, lets give the "personal attack" posts a rest. All this does is make the mods get tired of reading these threads, so when there if there ever is an obvious double standard, no one will care because they'll be sick of these posts.

My take on it all:

Why not just accept that P&N is a yard full of dog shit, and post a disclaimer advising members to navigate accordingly?

Warning: the P&N forums are the new wild west frontier. Enter at your own risk. AnandTech has no liability for the passionate manner in which subjects are discussed. Further, we are not your Mothers or Fathers. Please do not come running to us, if you get your feelings hurt in there. If you feel you do not possess thick enough skin, then we suggest not venturing into P&N at all. :laugh:

Obviously, there are some things considered "over the top". Calling people spiks or ***** is not gonna work there, as an example.

 

[alchemize]

compuwiz1: I'm pretty much in agreement. That's why I laid out the criteria above. Rarely do posts ever meet that criteria, but it is something that could semi-objectively applied in moderation. ProfJohn's earlier example clearly doesn't meet the criteria for an "actionable personal attack". Neither do most/all of Harvey's posts.

It's like a boxing match with everyone has their trunks pulled up to their nipples and complains about every "low blow". Let's switch over to ultimate fighting - no biting, head butts, etc.

 

[apoppin]

Perhaps we should ask the regulars in P&N what they want?
--a stickied thread in P&N

Completely unmoderated might not be a good idea ... or maybe it is

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: apoppin
Perhaps we should ask the regulars in P&N what they want?
--a stickied thread in P&N

Completely unmoderated might not be a good idea ... or maybe it is

What are the odds that stickied thread would turn into a flame fest?? :laugh:

 

[JD50]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: apoppin
Perhaps we should ask the regulars in P&N what they want?
--a stickied thread in P&N

Completely unmoderated might not be a good idea ... or maybe it is

What are the odds that stickied thread would turn into a flame fest?? :laugh:

:laugh:

 

[JD50]

Originally posted by: compuwiz1

Originally posted by: JD50
Look, I know these personal attacks are annoying, but nothing is going to change. Harvey is the king of thread crapping and personal attacks, and he's a senior mod. The only way that they will start enforcing the "no personal attacks" rule is if he stops, and I doubt that will ever happen. Plus, you have Dave, the king of trolls, posting whatever the hell he wants, twisting articles, insulting people in every single post, with nothing ever done to him. So you guys might as well stop bitching about the personal attacks because its a waste of time. Just know that it is perfectly acceptable to attack anyone for just about any reason, and its perfectly acceptable to post the same old crap in every single thread. Have some fun with it, join in on the attacks yourself, it will help relieve some stress. Everything goes in P&N, so enjoy it.

BTW, I am not blaming the mods for any of this, I know you guys have a tough job, and it must be even tougher when you have some of the apparently invincible members posting a bunch of crap every single day. If you can't touch these members, then you can't go banning others for attacks either, I don't envy the position you all have been put it in at all. With the exception of a few (IMO) questionable bans, you guys have done a great job not implementing a double standard.

So really, until their is a rash of unfair bans, lets give the "personal attack" posts a rest. All this does is make the mods get tired of reading these threads, so when there if there ever is an obvious double standard, no one will care because they'll be sick of these posts.

My take on it all:

Why not just accept that P&N is a yard full of dog shit, and post a disclaimer advising members to navigate accordingly?

Warning: the P&N forums are the new wild west frontier. Enter at your own risk. AnandTech has no liability for the passionate manner in which subjects are discussed. Further, we are not your Mothers or Fathers. Please do not come running to us, if you get your feelings hurt in there. If you feel you do not possess thick enough skin, then we suggest not venturing into P&N at all. :laugh:

Obviously, there are some things considered "over the top". Calling people spiks or ***** is not gonna work there, as an example.

Yep, that seems like the best solution. It would be almost impossible for them to enforce any kind of personal attack policy in P&N, so right now pretty much everything goes. As long as you know that, and are aware of that, then there really shouldn't be much complaining. If you don't like it, don't go into P&N. Now of course it would be a much better forum without all of the personal attacks, but that probably isn't going to happen.

 

[alchemize]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: apoppin
Perhaps we should ask the regulars in P&N what they want?
--a stickied thread in P&N

Completely unmoderated might not be a good idea ... or maybe it is

What are the odds that stickied thread would turn into a flame fest?? :laugh:

Can you create a post where it's survey only and no replies are allowed?

 

[Hacp]

I think everyone needs to chill. Have the right wing crazies attacked me personally before? Yes, but I don't care to search for it since its part of P&N. Stop crying, IMO.

 

[yllus]

Originally posted by: JD50

Yep, that seems like the best solution. It would be almost impossible for them to enforce any kind of personal attack policy in P&N, so right now pretty much everything goes.

I disagree heavily. Many other forums achieve this for the simple reason that once a strict policy is stated, it's also then enforced.

Give P&N a deadline for strict enforcement to begin, and then immediately vacation those who say:

Originally posted by: oldsmoboat
You are an idiot for thinking that the Democrats can fix this country.

But allow:

The Democrats are idiots and will never fix the country.

Hand out enough vacations and even if at first P&N becomes a virtual ghost town, the effect will settle in as enforcement continues. It will simply require more moderation of the forum area.

 

[JD50]

Originally posted by: yllus

Originally posted by: JD50

Yep, that seems like the best solution. It would be almost impossible for them to enforce any kind of personal attack policy in P&N, so right now pretty much everything goes.

I disagree heavily. Many other forums achieve this for the simple reason that once a strict policy is stated, it's also then enforced.

Give P&N a deadline for strict enforcement to begin, and then immediately vacation those who say:

Originally posted by: oldsmoboat
You are an idiot for thinking that the Democrats can fix this country.

But allow:

The Democrats are idiots and will never fix the country.

Hand out enough vacations and even if at first P&N becomes a virtual ghost town, the effect will settle in as enforcement continues. It will simply require more moderation of the forum area.

I thought about that, but I still think that it would turn into a flame fest. For example, there are some libs that like to say that conservatives can't think for themselves, are morally bankrupt, etc.... Well, as a conservative, thats pretty damn offensive, so my response would be to call that person a moron for labeling ALL conservatives. If that wasn't allowed, the only way to respond to that would be to call all liberals race baiting fools, or whatever insult comes to mind. So there would still be plenty of flaming going on.

Or maybe it would work, who knows...But you're right, there would have to be strict enforcement across the board.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: apoppin
Perhaps we should ask the regulars in P&N what they want?
--a stickied thread in P&N

Completely unmoderated might not be a good idea ... or maybe it is

What are the odds that stickied thread would turn into a flame fest?? :laugh:

Sounds like a challenge ... and lots of fun to read ... let's DO it!
:thumbsup:

Maybe we could have another forum - to let the pressure off P&N - completely unmoderated --for banned posters and posters that want to wade deep into crap and wallow in the flames and name calling - anything goes! ... extra ad and pop-up heavy of course ... maybe not even hosted by ATF


Call it "anything goes" ... make the posters sign a digital disclaimer - and NOT for children!

if someone is banned, they are locked out of the regular forums as usual AND they get thrown into "Forum Anything Goes Hell" ... or Purgatory ... depends on how you want to look at it.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: yllus

Many other forums achieve this for the simple reason that once a strict policy is stated, it's also then enforced.

That would be like asking politicians to stop negative ads.

Ain't gonna happen.

 

[waggy]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: apoppin
Perhaps we should ask the regulars in P&N what they want?
--a stickied thread in P&N

Completely unmoderated might not be a good idea ... or maybe it is

What are the odds that stickied thread would turn into a flame fest?? :laugh:

Sounds like a challenge ... and lots of fun to read ... let's DO it!
:thumbsup:

Maybe we could have another forum - to let the pressure off P&N - completely unmoderated --for banned posters and posters that want to wade deep into crap and wallow in the flames and name calling - anything goes! ... extra ad and pop-up heavy of course ... maybe not even hosted by ATF


Call it "anything goes" ... make the posters sign a digital disclaimer - and NOT for children!

if someone is banned, they are locked out of the regular forums as usual AND they get thrown into "Forum Anything Goes Hell" ... or Purgatory ... depends on how you want to look at it.

oh man. that sounds like it could be fun..and scarry!

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: apoppin
Perhaps we should ask the regulars in P&N what they want?
--a stickied thread in P&N

Completely unmoderated might not be a good idea ... or maybe it is

What are the odds that stickied thread would turn into a flame fest?? :laugh:

Sounds like a challenge ... and lots of fun to read ... let's DO it!
:thumbsup:

Maybe we could have another forum - to let the pressure off P&N - completely unmoderated --for banned posters and posters that want to wade deep into crap and wallow in the flames and name calling - anything goes! ... extra ad and pop-up heavy of course ... maybe not even hosted by ATF


Call it "anything goes" ... make the posters sign a digital disclaimer - and NOT for children!

if someone is banned, they are locked out of the regular forums as usual AND they get thrown into "Forum Anything Goes Hell" ... or Purgatory ... depends on how you want to look at it.

I'm pretty sure that already exists. A place where some of the banned hang out etc and also some (non-banned) AT forums members. It has no rules etc.

I visited once. Wasn't very interesting to me. Mostly a bunch of raunchy insults being traded in an effort to be humorous.

I'll see if I can find & link it later.

Fern