A fun game in alternative history: If Arabs won in 1948...

[SheriffA00]

No one said you're antisemitic or a terrorist, merely uninformed.
Israel never denied anyone the vote for ethnic reasons. Some Israelis supported a movement that called for conditioning the right to vote on military duty, but that never happened. It's like the KKK talking about denying the right of Blacks to vote and me naming America "racist". I asked you to show me otherwise, and you didn't. You linked to two different articles by leftist publications, each dealing with another issue.

Arabs have full voting rights in Israel, full stop.



Because they are persecuted by extreme left and Palestinians, who use the naivety of some European country to harass Israelis.



Why don't you round it up to 20,000 and call it a day?

Wiki:





Terrorism, rockets, education to hatred [...]



Yes, was the Gaza disengagement a land grab attempt too?



Another product of your sick mind? Another sorry attempt of turning reality on its head? The only ones that were documented dancing on rooftops were Palestinians. Do you have a youtube video or something similar that shows Israelis happy following this? Are you going to link me to another Huffington post article?




You need to learn to distinguish between the actions of single extremists and Israel as a nation. As I said, I'm sure there are buildings in the USA where someone wrote Arabs - or Jews - to the gas chamber.
You probably never learned how to make this distinction if you grew up with Palestinians, as the state entity itself is an extremist organization by any Western standard.

Nevertheless, I have to congratulate you as being the boldest liar I've encountered here for quite some time. At least the resident leftist dorm dwellers try to be careful with what they present, you're just so out there. Congratulations, sir. You're making yourself and your cause a joke.
I wonder how highly people think of the Palestinians after posts like yours

See name calling once again. You called me a liar, you said I have sick and twisted mind. I feel bad for you, i really do. The only way to resolve this is to put into palestine cameras so the world can see what the truth is.

You need to learn to distinguish between the actions of single extremists and Israel as a nation

You need to learn to distinguish between the actions of single extremists and real Palestinians! Not what Fox news keeps on putting on TV over and over again. Your sources come from US media which has its own agenda. My sources come from the ground. Please go to the Palestine and spend a month there. Wait for the water truck for three days so you can wash your hands. Go look at a stream you use to get your driking water from and now there is a settlement the puts its untreated sewage in that stream. Listen to your brothers cry on the phone cause they have tear gas in their eyes. Listen to your father tell of how he was beat with an M16 till his US passport fell out and then treated like a human. You have no idea what reality is! I am the luckiest Palestinian alive, my father worked his ass off to get me out of horror that is called a Palestinian territory. You want reality, look at the morgues in Palestine that have infants with missing limbs. Go visit your uncle in prison in Israel when you are only 6 or 7 years old and ask the Israeli soldier why he is there. There are 1000s of palestians held in prisons like my uncle was without charges. You want reality, live in Palestine!

Listen to what a growing number of jewish people are saying about reality! Go see it with your owns eyes! The number of jewish people on the palestinan's side is growing. You should really ask yourself why?

 

[werepossum]

So then whats the solution? Why not give them a better option than Hamas? Why doesn't Israel fund a group that will allow it to give more to its citizens? The truth is they did try it, Israel funded Hamas in the 70s to counter the PLO. Just like the US funded alqueda in the 70s.

What can Hamas do to stop rockets when it barely has water, electricity, or band aids? It can't do anything. It sucks but the reality is Israel is giving the average palestinian no future or hope. So they are going to elect Hamas who will at least give them hope. Now Israel is tying the hands of Hamas. So if Hamas is the government in Gaza and its hands are tied, how is it supposed to accomplish anything?

As long as Palestinians are under siege their will be resistance. As long as anyone is under siege there will be resistance.

You seriously want to know what Hamas can do to stop Hamas from launching rockets into Israel? Seriously? When the people doing the terrorism are the people in charge, they have the power to stop it completely and instantly, without any assistance from anyone.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Oh I never said Palestinians have happy, cheerful life. I do know that every attempt to grant them better life was met with fierce and immediate violence on their part. I know that they denied Barak's proposals in Camp David, I know that they increased their rocket campaign after the Israeli disengagement. I know they had hopes with the Oslo process, all shattered by Arafat.

I think that the Palestinians are miserable, but I think they never have, and probably never will, accept responsibility for their actions and fate. It's much easier to blame Israel for everything and keep scavenging money from the world.

Why the fuck did they have to shoot rockets from Gaza and force Israel into the Cast Lead operation? Is that stupidity? Some kind of strategy? Even if Israel is the most evil, insane nation on the planet, why mess with it?

No one knows, really.

No, I'll tell you buddy: blame billionaire Arafat, blame Chaled Mashal who pulls the strings of the Hamas government in Gaza from his safehouse in Damascus, blame the Egyptians for hermetically closing the border, blame Iran for providing weapons to prolong this conflict, and the Palestinian voter for putting Hamas in charge. Or the Fatah officials for being too corrupt for remaining in power. The only place your people shown any kind of resourcefulness is manufacturing their own rockets and in the widespread of suicide bombers against exclusively civilian population.

I used to be sorry for the Palestinians. No More. Have them wake the fuck up, or spend 100 more years in misery.

 

[kylebisme]

As your buddy Kyle would say - what actually were the terms of the ceasefire?

That is what I said when you attempted to claim terms of the truce which have no basis in reality, like here:

No attacks from Gaza and no attacks by Israel?

The world interpreted the ceasefire conditions as such.

No, those aren't the ceasefire conditions at all, which is why you have to make unsubstantiated claims about how "the world interpreted" them rather than actually proving your claim by referencing credible sources. Again:

You are making a speculative argument here with no evidence to back it, and the fact that very few rockets or mortars were fired into Israel from the start of the cease-fire to Israel's murder of Hamas members on Gaza on November 4th stands in stark contradiction to your speculation.

Is it just that you are too thick to comprehend these facts, or are you internally distorting them even though you have long been made aware of the reality of the matter?

Conditionals exemptions were not announced.

Yet the people who state that Israel broke the ceasefire ignore the fact that acctacks were initiated from Gaza because Hamas states tahttheywere notresponsible. Then in thesame breath, Hamas states that they will not attempt to stop attacks by others.

I state the fact that the truce was between the Israeli government and Hamas, and as explained...

...in this Israeli report:

Hamas, for its part, was careful to maintain the ceasefire.

That is how the Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center at the Israel Intelligence Heritage & Commemoration Center interpreted the terms of the truce, because that is how it really was. You on the other hand continue to spout lies in contradiction to that reality, long after having been confronted with this facts.

Also, in regard to pre-Israel Zionist terrorism, here is the Wiki article on the subject, which links to this list of Irgun attacks, including bombing a bus and multiple buildings. As for discriminatory laws against Arabs and Israel, this article gives a decent overview, and this family being run out of their home provides a current example of such discriminatory legislation in practice, people being pressured into giving up their homes simply because they are Christians rather than Jewish.

It's much easier to blame Israel for everything and keep scavenging money from the world.

Oh come on, you know you prefer to blame Arabs for everything while Israel keeps getting billions a year in US taxpayer handouts alone.

Why the fuck did they have to shoot rockets from Gaza and force Israel into the Cast Lead operation? Is that stupidity? Some kind of strategy? Even if Israel is the most evil, insane nation on the planet, why mess with it?

No one knows, really.

No, I'll tell you buddy: blame billionaire Arafat, blame Chaled Mashal who pulls the strings of the Hamas government in Gaza from his safehouse in Damascus, blame the Egyptians for hermetically closing the border, blame Iran for providing weapons to prolong this conflict, and the Palestinian voter for putting Hamas in charge. Or the Fatah officials for being too corrupt for remaining in power. The only place your people shown any kind of resourcefulness is manufacturing their own rockets and in the widespread of suicide bombers against exclusively civilian population.

I used to be sorry for the Palestinians. No More. Have them wake the fuck up, or spend 100 more years in misery.

You don't know why some Palestinians shoot rockets because you refuse wake the fuck up to reality. I already explained to you in this very thread that Meshaal, along with Palestinians at large support a peaceful resolution to the conflict on the basis of international law, yet Israel has no interest in anything of the sort.

As for your list of finger waving; Zionists propped up Arafat up and help stuff his pockets as he sold out his fellow Palestinians, Israel who restricts Meshaal from living on Palestinian territory, the US who props up the brutal dictatorship of Egypt with billions in aid every year, the US is providing far more weapons to prolong this conflict than Iran, and you admit that Fatah is rife with corruption yet still blame Palestinians for electing the only party large enough to replace them?

I feel sorry for you, you ignorant and delusional bigot.

 

[EagleKeeper]

So then whats the solution? Why not give them a better option than Hamas? Why doesn't Israel fund a group that will allow it to give more to its citizens? The truth is they did try it, Israel funded Hamas in the 70s to counter the PLO. Just like the US funded alqueda in the 70s.

What can Hamas do to stop rockets when it barely has water, electricity, or band aids? It can't do anything. It sucks but the reality is Israel is giving the average Palestinian no future or hope. So they are going to elect Hamas who will at least give them hope. Now Israel is tying the hands of Hamas. So if Hamas is the government in Gaza and its hands are tied, how is it supposed to accomplish anything?

As long as Palestinians are under siege their will be resistance. As long as anyone is under siege there will be resistance.

1) Hamas has shown that they have the ability to curtail the rocket attacks (if they choose to). - Per our resident Pal sympathizers

2) Hamas is able to control by their actions. Israel increased the restrictions as a direct result of Hamas actions. Electricity, water and food access is based on the result ofactions Hamas chose to do. Those consequences were announced well in advance - allowing Hamas to change direction.

Also, remember, that supplies that were sent into Gaza, were intercepted and/or destroyed by Hamas because they might go to an opposition gourp.

3) The Palestinians have chosen their road to travel. They have also chosen their leadership and tolerate whom their leadership wishes to associate with.

They have seen for the pat 60 years the result of their choices, yet continue to make the ones that will harm them. Even after '73, they continues to support leadership that continue to attack Israel. Even when they were kicked out of Jordan because of their actions; they did not seem to learn to play nice with those that were willing to assist them. They choose to blame others for their misfortunes instead of accepting that they have made the wrong decisions and move on.

 

[kylebisme]

How exactly do you expect Palestinians to move on when Israel insists on continuing to to colonize what little they have left of their homeland out from under them while holding them under overwhelming military force, and killing them off regardless of if they honor truces or not?

 

[JEDIYoda]

Where do I start, so many errors here. let me touch upon a few. First of all the jews back in the early part of the 19th century were the ones committing terrorist attacks. They were blowing up buses and buildings. The Palestinians did not come up with this by themselves. They saw it work for the jewish people.

You have been avoiding this subject the whole thread......
Link me to credible proof that your accusations are true....

 

[Farang]

I'd put a big wager on a mass exodus of Jews brought on by a set of policies that the Arabs would put in place to ensure they didn't want to stay. Possible war crimes against officials or Israeli army, but I don't imagine a mass genocide or anything because the Arabs know that might bring American intervention.

So you'd have a lot more Jews in the U.S. and possibly in Britain.

 

[kylebisme]

You have been avoiding this subject the whole thread......
Link me to credible proof that your accusations are true....

I adressed that here:

Also, in regard to pre-Israel Zionist terrorism, here is the Wiki article on the subject, which links to this list of Irgun attacks, including bombing a bus and multiple buildings.

The most notable example is the King David Hotel bombing, a Zionist terrorist attack Israeli leaders recently commemorated:

In July 2006, Israelis, including the past and future Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and former members of Irgun, attended a 60th anniversary celebration of the bombing, which was organized by the Menachem Begin Centre. The British Ambassador in Tel Aviv and the Consul-General in Jerusalem protested, saying "We do not think that it is right for an act of terrorism, which led to the loss of many lives, to be commemorated." They also protested against a plaque that claims that people died because the British ignored warning calls, saying it was untrue and "did not absolve those who planted the bomb." The plaque read "For reasons known only to the British, the hotel was not evacuated.” To prevent a diplomatic incident, and over the objections of Reuven Rivlin of the Likud Party, who raised the matter in the Knesset, changes were made in the text, though to a greater degree in the English than the Hebrew version. The final English version says, "Warning phone calls has [sic] been made to the hotel, The Palestine Post and the French Consulate, urging the hotel's occupants to leave immediately. The hotel was not evacuated and after 25 minutes the bombs exploded. To the Irgun's regret, 92 persons were killed." The death toll given includes Avraham Abramovitz, the Irgun member who was shot during the attack and died later from his wounds, but only the Hebrew version of the sign makes that clear.

Note the lame excuse about phone calls, as that doesn't make it any less a horrific act of terrorism regardless. Also note the presence of Benjamin Netanyahu, as his Likud party evolved out of the Zionist terrorist group Irgun who committed the bombing.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Quote:
Originally Posted by JEDIYoda
You have been avoiding this subject the whole thread......
Link me to credible proof that your accusations are true....

I adressed that here: -- no you did NOT address that......


Quote:
Originally Posted by kylebisme
Also, in regard to pre-Israel Zionist terrorism, here is the Wiki article on the subject, which links to this list of Irgun attacks, including bombing a bus and multiple buildings.

No you did NOT address that at all.....
Your the same person who got raped in the WTC7 thread that you started.
You know as well as most of us that thye wiki article you quoted has a disclaimer attached to it that reads -- The neutrality of this article is disputed. of course it`s disputed it`s not even accurate....
What`s interesting is you quote wiki often without realizing that most articles that arer anti israeli or for that matter anti Palestinian were written by those who would have you believe a falsehood.

of course you would fall for the wiki is accurate opinion...after all you couldn`t even do your own math in the WTC7 thread....

So no you did not address the issue and your Palestinian brother SheriffA00 could not come up with any links other than wiki-pedia to support this total falsehood!

 

[kylebisme]

No you did NOT address that at all.....
Your the same person who got raped in the WTC7 thread that you started.

Rather, youi are one of the many people in the WTC7 thread which has no grasp on physics and revel in your ingorance while waving your finger at me for not doing the same.

You know as well as most of us that thye wiki article you quoted has a disclaimer attached to it that reads -- The neutrality of this article is disputed. of course it`s disputed it`s not even accurate...

I know that it is reasonably accurate, and well sourced, and I know you can't make a substantive argument to the contrary, which is why you are left with hollow denials.

What`s interesting is you quote wiki often without realizing that most articles that arer anti israeli or for that matter anti Palestinian were written by those who would have you believe a falsehood.

of course you would fall for the wiki is accurate opinion...after all you couldn`t even do your own math in the WTC7 thread....

So no you did not address the issue and your Palestinian brother SheriffA00 could not come up with any links other than wiki-pedia to support this total falsehood!

You are the one who believes TLCs false claim of me having copied the math I presented, and again the Wiki pages are full of citations which back the information there. I could cite many more sources too, but of then you could dig them up yourself if you didn't prefer to burry your head in the sand, so there's no reason I should bother.

 

[Freshgeardude]

I adressed that here:


The most notable example is the King David Hotel bombing, a Zionist terrorist attack Israeli leaders recently commemorated:

I have studied those attacks before. I don't nessasarily agree with them, they did send a message.



Note the lame excuse about phone calls, as that doesn't make it any less a horrific act of terrorism regardless. Also note the presence of Benjamin Netanyahu, as his Likud party evolved out of the Zionist terrorist group Irgun who committed the bombing.

Blah blah blah. Calling phone call warnings as a lame excuse. where have I heard you say that before. Oh yea, Operation cast lead. Warnings are warnings, whichever way you want to view it. The decision by the people hearing the warnings should be responsible for not acting upon them, similarly how the US didnt respond to warnings for 9/11 and also for the Palestinians in gaza during operation cast lead.

I love it how you say "horrific act of terrorism" when an extremist Zionist group does something, but you wont say the same if Hamas or Hezbollah do something. You simply rationalize their acts of terrorism.

Your last arguement is so weak it is pitiful. You want to say that the israeli PM is from a party which came from a terrorist group.

HELLO HAMAS has been considered a terrorist group by the US and EU for a long time. Never called Israel a terrorist country.

Besides, if you read the wikipedia link that you posted, the only similarity between Irgun and Likud is their Centrists' ideals and Likud was NOT made from Irgun. After the establishment of the State of Israel, it was the Irgun wing of the Revisionist Party that formed Herut, which in turn eventually formed the Gahal party by absorbing the centrist General Zionists. In 1977 the new Likud Party, a right wing coalition dominated by the Revisionist Herut/Gahal

its like saying humans and monkeys are related. Yea, there is a relationship between the two, but their central ways of life are much much different.

Bolded is answers

 

[kylebisme]

The decision by the people hearing the warnings should be responsible for not acting upon them, similarly how the US didnt respond to warnings for 9/11...

OMG, you just blamed the US for being attacked on 9/11 in your twisted defense of terrorism? No, the terrorists are to blame, not the victims. That goes for Israel's massacre in Gaza too, dropping filters and calling people to tell them to run for their lives without giving them anywhere to run to for safety is just another form of terrorism.

I love it how you say "horrific act of terrorism" when an extremist Zionist group does something, but you wont say the same if Hamas or Hezbollah do something. You simply rationalize their acts of terrorism.

I've no issue condemning Hamas and Hezbollah's horrific acts of terrorism for exactly what they are, and do so regularly, while you love to delude yourself into imagining otherwise in your defense of Zionist terrorism.

Your last arguement is so weak it is pitiful.

Your attempted denial is pitiful. Irgun formed Herut, and Herut formed Gahal which eventually became Likud, and Kadama was split from that. Netehyau's father was also a leader in the Revisionist Zionist movement which both Irgun and Lehi formed from, and Livni's parents were Irgun, as was Olmert's, and Rahm Emanuel's father at that. These are facts, deal with them.

Yea, there is a relationship between the two, but their central ways of life are much much different.

Sure, they have people to drop their bombs from jets now. :\

 

[Freshgeardude]

OMG, you just blamed the US for being attacked on 9/11 in your twisted defense of terrorism? No, the terrorists are to blame, not the victims. That goes for Israel's massacre in Gaza too, dropping filters and calling people to tell them to run for their lives without giving them anywhere to run to for safety is just another form of terrorism.

I didnt accuse the US on being attacked. They just ignored warnings, which they probably filters out of the important list next to the hundreds of other threats they probably get.


I've no issue condemning Hamas and Hezbollah's horrific acts of terrorism for exactly what they are, and do so regularly, while you love to delude yourself into imagining otherwise in your defense of Zionist terrorism.

I never said I defended Zionist terrorism.

Answer this question. Do you consider the attacks of Hamas and Hezbollah by missile and mortar attacks an act of terrorism?

Your attempted denial is pitiful. Irgun formed Herut, and Herut formed Gahal which eventually became Likud, and Kadama was split from that. Netehyau's father was also a leader in the Revisionist Zionist movement which both Irgun and Lehi formed from, and Livni's parents were Irgun, as was Olmert's, and Rahm Emanuel's father at that. These are facts, deal with them.

So molecules became cells which became multi cell organisms, which became sea creatures, which became land animals, which became primates, and humans. So what?

Likud came from as you said "Irgun formed Herut, and Herut formed Gahal which eventually became Likud"
The only similarity between Irgun and Likud is the central idea of conservatism zionism. Attempting to comare the two is like comparing an apple to an orange. Likud isnt out to do what Irgun didnt fullfill.

your attempt to include Netanyau's father, Livni's parents, Olmerts and Rahm Emanuel in the arguement is hilarious. Ofcourse they would have been zionists. they all probably came from holocaust era Europe and the whole reason they were being persecuted there was because they were Jewish.

If we look back at your history, my history, or the history of any person, you WILL find an ugly past. Am I saying it is right? no. am I saying it was a generation ago? no. but the fact of the matter is that just because someones parents have one idealistic attitude doesnt mean you will have the same. This isnt the middle ages where if your father was a farmer, you were a farmer.

You need to deal with the fact that there is ugly on all sides and no matter what happens down the line, the next generation may not have the same ideals as the last

bolded

 

[kylebisme]

I didnt accuse the US on being attacked. They just ignored warnings, which they probably filters out of the important list next to the hundreds of other threats they probably get.

Of course various warnings got filtered out one way or another, and used that as an excuse to blame the US for having been attacked on 9/11.

I never said I defended Zionist terrorism.

You did attempt to defend Zionist terrorism by citing the alleged warnings to blame the victims of the King David Hotel bombing.

Do you consider the attacks of Hamas and Hezbollah by missile and mortar attacks an act of terrorism?

I know for a fact that they are acts of terrorism, and attest to that fact regularly.

Attempting to comare the two is like comparing an apple to an orange.

The relationship between Irgun and Likud is more like that of an apple and an the branch it fell from.

your attempt to include Netanyau's father, Livni's parents, Olmerts and Rahm Emanuel in the arguement is hilarious. Ofcourse they would have been zionists.

They were terrorists, well aside from Netanyau's father who from what I know was only associated with the ideological group which formed Irgun, but the rest were active members of that terrorist organization.

they all probably came from holocaust era Europe and the whole reason they were being persecuted there was because they were Jewish.

Sure, and now their children are persecuted Palestinians because they aren't Jewish, just as they were raised to.

You need to deal with the fact that there is ugly on all sides and no matter what happens down the line...

I don't have any trouble with that fact.

...the next generation may not have the same ideals as the last

You need to deal with the fact that the current generation in question has much the same ideals as the last, Likud's Platform openly denying Palestinians' right to sovereignty in their own homeland, just as Irgun did before them.