A fun game in alternative history: If Arabs won in 1948...

[SamurAchzar]

Revisionist history will not get it, the time is rapidly running out for a peaceful solution. The Israeli strategy has not worked for 61 years, thinking it will work for another 61 years is only a fool's delusion.

As for me, I prefer a peaceful and rational resolution, if not, the terrorists will win in the long term.

I beg to differ - Israel built itself up brilliantly over 61 years while its neighbors - and the rest of the Arab world save for some Gulf states - went exactly nowhere. Look at Israel's GDP per capita compared to Syria, Lebanon, Egypt. Despite being under continuous threats and enduring ongoing military clashes, Israel only grew stronger. If in the 60's the military technologies were pretty similar between Israel and the Arabs, today Israel has some of the most advanced self developed military technologies in the world, it's not just a matter of better personnel anymore. And currently, Israel is the country which most effectively combats terrorism - did you ever wonder why Al Qaeda and their thugs don't even bother dealing with Israel?

I wouldn't be worried at all about the possibility of a WMD attack on Israel anytime soon, no sane country - not even the insane countries - would allow anything like that to happen from their territories.

Your rhetoric just makes me think Israel should take it counter terrorism activity few notches up, if anything (maybe they'll even get to kylebisme). As long as Islamic jihadists exist, the only solution is force and even more force and sometimes even brutal, inproportional, insane force. We've seen how well it worked with Hamas, things have been really quiet ever since Cast Lead.

Once the Palestinians crawl out of their dumps with a white flag and disarm, THEN start negotiating a retreat to the 1967 borders.

 

[peonyu]

Israel wouldnt lose. Even more than now, most of thier weapons were 'gifts' from our country to them. That included a massive ammount of high quality Tanks, Aircraft, AA guns, artillery and more ammo than they would ever need. All from the US. Compare that to the self financed arms that the Arabs were using...much of thier forces were what, cavalry? In 1948 to boot. And thier aircraft, the few they had, were WW1 models that could be shotdown by ancient rifles.

The conflict was very one sided from the start. And it still is, we still give Israel the best weapons that are available, while giving 0 to thier neighbors. The only thing we dont give Israel, weaponswise that I know of is nukes [but even then Israel wont deny or acknowledge they have nukes so who knows].

 

[peonyu]

Also without US financial support Israel wouldnt be around today either. So its not possible to say it was solely a Israel-Arab war even though it looks like it on the front. Behind the scenes, as I said in my other post...There was VERY heavy support to Israel by third party countries. Namely from the US, we gave them insane ammounts of weapons that otherwise they would not have had. And it would have been a more even war in that case. Actually it would be uneven, Israel had less soldiers. So less soldiers and same weapons [without America giving them modern weapons] they likely would have lost.

And financially ? We subsidized Israel heavily at the start, with billions upon billions of dollars to get them started as a country, from farming equipment to raw materials like cement to build thier cities. And we still do this to this day, with 8 billion or more a year in support. Without the US support Israel likely would have lost.

So that kind of ties in to why so many Arabs are also anti-US when they talk about Israel. You cant talk about Israel without bringing up America because our support for them has been above and beyond our support of any other country. Those "israeli" tanks they fought in 48? They were US tanks. The planes? US planes. The farm equipment? US made and delivered Tractors. etc etc.

If the US supported the Arabs and not Israel with the same fervor, then 48 would be talked about the other way around...'what if Isreal won blah blah'.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Your posts are ignorant at best:

Israel wouldnt lose. Even more than now, most of thier weapons were 'gifts' from our country to them.

Israeli tanks, trucks, assault rifles, radar systems, missiles, electronic defense systems, are all developed by Israel. Israel is the 4th largest exporter of defense systems in the world, beating US industry in many occasions and in many fields. The Merkava 4 is the most advanced battle tank in the world, and now has active defense countermeasures US is still years away from.
Even most of the electronic systems on the Israeli US made aircraft were developed by Israel.
Israeli company (Palsan) has contracts for about 1.3 billion USD for armoring American trucks in Afghanistan and Iraq.
Granted the USA makes many of the weapons used by Israel, as well as all aircraft.

That included a massive ammount of high quality Tanks, Aircraft, AA guns, artillery and more ammo than they would ever need. All from the US.

Wrong again buddy. Arabs were heavily supported by the USSR, who not only contributed equipment, but also actively sent in pilots to train and reinforce Egypt. All weapon systems in use by Syria, for example, are Russian made.

Until 1967 or so, Israel didn't receive much in support or weapons from the US. In fact I even think there was a weapon embargo. All military equipment was French or British, until the french stopped selling to Israel in the 1970's.

Compare that to the self financed arms that the Arabs were using...much of thier forces were what, cavalry? In 1948 to boot. And thier aircraft, the few they had, were WW1 models that could be shotdown by ancient rifles.

Guess what? wrong again. From the 1948 war Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_War#Weapons

Largely leftover World War II era weapons were used by both sides. Egypt had some British equipment; the Syrian army had some French. German and British equipment was used by Israel.[118]

I don't recall any Spitfires being used in WWI... The Israeli planes (Messerschmidt) were stolen from the Nazis post war.

The conflict was very one sided from the start. And it still is, we still give Israel the best weapons that are available, while giving 0 to thier neighbors. The only thing we dont give Israel, weaponswise that I know of is nukes [but even then Israel wont deny or acknowledge they have nukes so who knows].

Wrong again:

Military cooperation

Between 1979 and 2003, the US has provided Egypt with about $19 billion in military aid, making Egypt the second largest non-NATO recipient of US military aid after Israel. Also, Egypt received about $30 billion in economic aid within the same time frame.

And it would have been a more even war in that case. Actually it would be uneven, Israel had less soldiers. So less soldiers and same weapons [without America giving them modern weapons] they likely would have lost.

Nope, Israeli soldiers proved again and again their superiority compared to the Arab soldiers even while using inferior weaponry. I'd like to see support for your claim that the Egyptians had worse weapons than Israel at any given time. They had top of the line Russian equipment, such as aircraft and anti missile batteries, which in the day was no less good than US made equipment.

From the Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_–_United_States_relations

During these years of austerity, the United States provided Israel moderate amounts of economic aid, mostly as loans for basic food stuffs; a far greater share of state income derived from German war reparations, which were used for domestic development.

France became Israel's main arms supplier at this time and provided Israel with advanced military equipment and technology. This support was seen by Israel to counter the perceived threat from Egypt under President Gamal Abdel Nasser with respect to the "Czech arms deal" of September 1955. During the 1956 Suez Crisis, in which Britain, France, and Israel colluded to gain Egyptian territory, the U.S., along with Soviet Union and the United Nations intervened on behalf of Egypt and forced a total withdrawal of their forces. Afterward, Nasser expressed a desire to establish closer relations with the United States. Eager to increase its influence in the region, and prevent Nasser from going over to the Soviet Bloc, U.S. policy was to remain neutral and not become too closely allied with Israel. In the early 1960s, the U.S. would begin to sell advanced, but defensive, weapons to Israel, Egypt and Jordan, including Hawk anti aircraft missiles.

And financially ? We subsidized Israel heavily at the start, with billions upon billions of dollars to get them started as a country, from farming equipment to raw materials like cement to build thier cities. And we still do this to this day, with 8 billion or more a year in support. Without the US support Israel likely would have lost.

Again US support was only given from the 1960's. Before that there were only basic loans, as described above.

So that kind of ties in to why so many Arabs are also anti-US when they talk about Israel. You cant talk about Israel without bringing up America because our support for them has been above and beyond our support of any other country. Those "israeli" tanks they fought in 48? They were US tanks. The planes? US planes. The farm equipment? US made and delivered Tractors. etc etc.

Go educate yourself. Not only did the Israeli almost exclusively use European made weaponry, its quality and quantity were far inferior to what the Arabs had. And again I'll refer you to the table here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab–Israeli_War#Weapons

And your people still lost. Speaks volumes of the Arab soldiers, eh?

 

[kylebisme]

The difference between a completely Jewish state and a completely Islamic state is that the Jewish state wont persecute anyone who is not jewish, wont beat them (police, not accounting for citizens) and wont kick them out simply because they want to visit.

Sure, as if Israeli police don't shoot at Jews who protest against the persecution of Palestinians just like anyone else, this being one notable example.

Under Muslim rule over Jerusalem, the western wall, which jews and muslims alike claim to be holy, was a trash dump for the muslims. Under jewish control, both can be there.

Rather, it was Christians which used the wall as a trash dump, and Muslims who cleaned it up.

the grave of, i believe, abraham, which is in an arab territory is too risky for a jew to go near today in fear of death.

Nonsense, the Cave of the Patriarchs has been under Israel occupation since Israel invaded the West Bank in 1967, and Palestinians are the ones who have limited access to it due to the restrictions of movement Israel imposes on them. On the other hand, Jews can visit it whenever they like, here is the official Israeli website for it which provides visitor information.

back in the 80s, they could go freely. (I know this because my dad took pictures there when he visited)

Back in 1994, the Zionist terrorist Baruch Goldstein was able to walk freely into the Cave of the Patriarchs and open fire to massacre 39 Palestinians and wound 125 more, and Israel has incressed security mesures there since then.

I will bet my ass off, if the arab nations never attacked israel, in 48 or any time after, never fought them, let them have their territory and go to the other areas, the Israeli borders would be thinner than paper.

An absurd claim considering the fact that Zionist militias and terrorist groups were ethnically cleansing across both sides of the UN partition plan for months before those Arab nations attacked.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaPz7p-1-bk&feature=player_embedded

that is in sweden. Many of the countries with a 30% or greater muslim population, much of Europe for example, are falling into horrible problems because of them.

That bullshit Islamaphobic propaganda was thoroughly refuted last time you posted it.

I would also like to add this.

If the Islamic religion did not exist in this time, minus NK and leave a hole where Islam was, there would be international peace.

I've seen similar comments from people in regard to Judaism, and it's ignorant fucking bigot either way.

The facts to support this is that all of the problems in ME are Islamic extremists. The Islamic religion comes in one way of practice, full. You either agree with everything or are not islamic. This is why the religion is full of extremists.

Sure, it's like like there are any Jewish extemists who call any Jew who opposes Zionism a self-hater.

Your rhetoric just makes me think Israel should take it counter terrorism activity few notches up, if anything (maybe they'll even get to kylebisme).

Am I to take this to suggest you feel terrorised by the facts I refute your bigoted propaganda with you with? How do you figure Israel should "get to" me exactly?

 

[kylebisme]

Go educate yourself. Not only did the Israeli almost exclusively use European made weaponry, its quality and quantity were far inferior to what the Arabs had. And again I'll refer you to the table here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_War#Weapons

And your people still lost. Speaks volumes of the Arab soldiers, eh?

While peonyu's understanding of the history is obviously flawed, so is yours. The link you provided does nothing to support your claim that the weapons Israel had were inferior in quality or quantity, and the fact is that Israel was far better armed, mostly in quality but also in quality to some extent. Also, the "your people still" comment speaks volumes of your bigotry, it's as simple as Jews vs. everyone else and everyone else is inferior in your head, eh?

 

[SamurAchzar]

While peonyu's understanding of the history is obviously flawed, so is yours. The link you provided does nothing to support your claim that the weapons Israel had were inferior in quality or quantity, and the fact is that Israel was far better armed, mostly in quality but also in quality to some extent.

Well their weapons sure weren't American. If the Israelis using museum pieces as weapons doesn't say anything about their level of equipment, I don't know what does. This war has taken place immediately after the declaration of Israel, with the IDF nothing but a few days old organization, and no considerable armaments. The fact the Israeli stood on their feet is a miracle, or a testament to the quality of the people involved.

Now I don't understand how you figured out Israel had a quality advantage looking at this list, to me it looks otherwise. However I'd really appreciate to know you got to your facts.

Why don't you try to read: http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_independence_war_course.php

Especially this part:

Although the Israelis mobilized almost their entire military age population, the imbalance in numbers is very clear, even without considering additional support from Saudi Arabia and other countries allied with the Arab League; the imbalance in war material was even more unfavorable to the Israelis

How did you get to the conclusion Israel - then only few days old at most - had better weapons than the six Arab nations conspiring to destroy it, I have no idea (I'm sure you don't have one either).

Also, the "your people still" comment speaks volumes of your bigotry, it's as simple as Jews vs. everyone else and everyone else is inferior in your head, eh?

The bigotry only exists in your head. It's actually "Israelis vs. Arabs". And yes, the Israelis are better, because they built a better state despite being attacked, because they withstood years of abuse and because they integrated into the international community so well while the Arabs, at best, remained where they were 50 years ago. They are leaders in sciences, innovations (go see Patents registered per capita charts) and military technology. The Arabs are leaders of wasting oil money and oppressing their subordinates. Israeli did all this without having oil at their back yard.

I'd really like to hear of the Intel fabs in Jordan, Lebanon, Syria or Egypt. Let alone R&D centers. In fact you're probably using a CPU designed by bigoted oppressing Israelis at the moment.
Fool.

 

[werepossum]

Your posts are ignorant at best:

Israeli tanks, trucks, assault rifles, radar systems, missiles, electronic defense systems, are all developed by Israel. Israel is the 4th largest exporter of defense systems in the world, beating US industry in many occasions and in many fields. The Merkava 4 is the most advanced battle tank in the world, and now has active defense countermeasures US is still years away from.
Even most of the electronic systems on the Israeli US made aircraft were developed by Israel.
Israeli company (Palsan) has contracts for about 1.3 billion USD for armoring American trucks in Afghanistan and Iraq.
Granted the USA makes many of the weapons used by Israel, as well as all aircraft.

Wrong again buddy. Arabs were heavily supported by the USSR, who not only contributed equipment, but also actively sent in pilots to train and reinforce Egypt. All weapon systems in use by Syria, for example, are Russian made.

Until 1967 or so, Israel didn't receive much in support or weapons from the US. In fact I even think there was a weapon embargo. All military equipment was French or British, until the french stopped selling to Israel in the 1970's.

Guess what? wrong again. From the 1948 war Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab–Israeli_War#Weapons


I don't recall any Spitfires being used in WWI... The Israeli planes (Messerschmidt) were stolen from the Nazis post war.

Nope, Israeli soldiers proved again and again their superiority compared to the Arab soldiers even while using inferior weaponry. I'd like to see support for your claim that the Egyptians had worse weapons than Israel at any given time. They had top of the line Russian equipment, such as aircraft and anti missile batteries, which in the day was no less good than US made equipment.

From the Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_–_United_States_relations





Again US support was only given from the 1960's. Before that there were only basic loans, as described above.



Go educate yourself. Not only did the Israeli almost exclusively use European made weaponry, its quality and quantity were far inferior to what the Arabs had. And again I'll refer you to the table here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab–Israeli_War#Weapons

And your people still lost. Speaks volumes of the Arab soldiers, eh?

We actually license a fair amount of technology from Israeli defense companies and sell them mostly aircraft. We sell Egypt very large numbers of Abrams tanks, probably the best offensive tank in the world (with the possible exception of the excellent Leopard 2), and many other advanced weapons. You do not sell those to Israel for the simple reason that for their type of warfare - defensive warfare, with occasional offensive thrusts straight into enemy armor - the Merkava is better, slower but more heavily armored and with the engine up front to provide additional protection and allow a rear egress and/or an infantry fire team. The Arabs may have had crap tanks in the '48 war but had good Soviet tanks (to the degree such a thing exists) and British tanks in the '67 and '73 wars, not to mention first line Soviet artillery and (in '73) anti-aircraft systems, both of which were among the best available. The Israelis had good aircraft, but a lot of their tanks were upgraded Shermans and other obsolete models. Israel's difficulty in getting good equipment - especially at the very times it is needed - and why she has developed such an impressive defense industry. When their very survival is at stake, smart people don't depend on others, especially those who tend to bouts of moral relativism.

Israel wins wars because of the training, dedication and bravery of its soldiers, and because for the Arabs it's a war of extermination, but for the Jews it's a war of survival.

 

[kylebisme]

Well their weapons sure weren't American.

Sure, in general anyway, and that is what I was refering to when I noted that peonyu's understanding of the history is obviously flawed.

If the Israelis using museum pieces as weapons doesn't say anything about their level of equipment, I don't know what does.

Their US made B-17 Flying Fortresses say something about their level of equipment.

This war has taken place immediately after the declaration of Israel, with the IDF nothing but a few days old organization, and no considerable armaments.

The Israel military was formed out of Zionist militia Haganah, along with the terrorist groups Irgun and Lehi, mostly lead by WWII veterans, and they had the armaments to ethnically cleanse hundreds of thousands of Palestinians from the region in the months prior to the declaration of Israel.

The fact the Israeli stood on their feet is a miracle, or a testament to the quality of the people involved.

The fact that Israel was able to ethnically cleanse hundreds of thousands of Palestinians from both sides of the UN partition plan is a testament to the ruthlessness of the people involved, and it was no miracle that they were able to do so as Palestinians had nothing approaching their level of armaments, and the Arab states didn't send in nearly as many troops as what Israel field.

Now I don't understand how you figured out Israel had a quality advantage looking at this list, to me it looks otherwise. However I'd really appreciate to know you got to your facts.

I was referring to the list you presented, and if you state specifically what armaments you are claiming gave the Arab states an advantage, I'd be happy to explain why you are wrong.

Why don't you try to read: http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_independence_war_course.php

I read it, and it is full of half-truths, as is all the Zionist propganada on that site I've read. Why do you reference such nonsense?

Especially this part:

That part implies the Arab states commited their full military to assist Palestinians, while in fact they did nothing of the sort. The Wiki page you linked previously has reasonable figures for the respective troop strenghts durring the conflict.

How did you get to the conclusion Israel - then only few days old at most - had better weapons than the six Arab nations conspiring to destroy it, I have no idea (I'm sure you don't have one either).

I get

The bigotry only exists in your head. It's actually "Israelis vs. Arabs".

That doesn't explain why you told peonyu "your people still lost", as he isn't Arab. On the other hand, Jewish supremacist bigotry explains it well.

And yes, the Israelis are better, because they built a better state despite being attacked, because they withstood years of abuse and because they integrated into the international community so well while the Arabs, at best, remained where they were 50 years ago. They are leaders in sciences, innovations (go see Patents registered per capita charts) and military technology. The Arabs are leaders of wasting oil money and oppressing their subordinates. Israeli did all this without having oil at their back yard.

I'd really like to hear of the Intel fabs in Jordan, Lebanon, Syria or Egypt. Let alone R&D centers. In fact you're probably using a CPU designed by bigoted oppressing Israelis at the moment.
Fool.

The West has been playing divide and conquer all over the Middle East since the fall of the Ottoman Empire, subverting democracy and propping up brutal dictators while flooding Israel with weapons and cash to perpetuate the conflict and line the pockets of the few at the expense of the masses. That doesn't make us all bigots though, just the ones who see all that as a sign of superiority, like yourself.

As for Intel, Israel is only one of many country they have fabs and R&D centers in, and they are currently working to create on one in Saudi Arabia, which is another regime I'd prefer not to support.

 

[JEDIYoda]

While peonyu's understanding of the history is obviously flawed, so is yours. The link you provided does nothing to support your claim that the weapons Israel had were inferior in quality or quantity, and the fact is that Israel was far better armed, mostly in quality but also in quality to some extent. Also, the "your people still" comment speaks volumes of your bigotry, it's as simple as Jews vs. everyone else and everyone else is inferior in your head, eh?

Funny coming from the same guy who started the wtc7 thread...rofl........credibility out the window!!

 

[tvarad]

.....

The West has been playing divide and conquer all over the Middle East since the fall of the Ottoman Empire, subverting democracy and propping up brutal dictators while flooding Israel with weapons and cash to perpetuate the conflict and line the pockets of the few at the expense of the masses. That doesn't make us all bigots though, just the ones who see all that as a sign of superiority, like yourself.

......

The Middle East was nothing but a conglomeration of tribal societies before the Western colonial powers gave it borders and created countries in the modern sense, so your postulate that the West "divided and conquered" goes out of the window. There were/are also many brutal dictators bitterly opposed to the West including Assad, Gaddhafi and Saddam Hussein which leads me to believe that the fundamental problem with the Middle East is that it is just not ready for democracy. Second the West exploited many other countries during colonial times and yet they have become powerful in their own right by focusing on internal and economic development, something that is severely lacking in the Middle East.

I also believe that if the Israelis and Palestinians are left to their own devices, they will come to some sort of agreement/arrangement mutually beneficial to both of them. The problem is all these parasite Arab/Muslim countries that are using the conflict to divert attention from their misrule (Iran immediately comes to mind).

 

[kylebisme]

The Iranian regime, along with Assad and Gaddhafi, are all reacting to our propping up dictators who allowed themselves to be corrupted by Western elites at the expense of their greater population. Iran in particular having had a progressive democratic government until we backed the Shah to overthrow it. On the other hand, Saddam was backed by us to overthrow the previous dictator of Iraq, and we pitted him against Iran after the Shah was deposed there.

Such examples provide the gist of what we've been doing, and Britain and France before us, throughout the Middle East since we "gave it borders and created countries in the modern sense" over the last century. That reflects more on our own general neglect of callous disregard for democracy than it says anything about Middle Easterners, as we are the ones who have been letting our industrialists control our foreign policy to exploit the piss out of whomever they choose to, in the Middle East and elsewhere.

As for the Israel/Palestine conflict in particular, that basically a microcosm of the larger situation. Israel has not only been left to do as it pleases though US veto power over the UN, but subsidized heavily with arms and cash, both to Israel itself and to those most subservient to them like Fatah, Egypt, and Jordan. That leaves Israel with no need to come to any agreement or arrangement with Palestinians, but rather free to continue colonizing away at what little of Palestine is left. Israel laughs off Obama's call for even just a temporary freeze on settlement expansion, the charges of war crimes in the Gaza massacre and else where, the International Court of Justice's ruling against the pall of Israel's security barrier cutting deep into Palestinian territory, and anything which contests their ongoing conquest of what little is left of Palestine.

I don't see how one could reasonable believe the Israel/Palestine conflict could end until the world stands up to stop it, just like the conflict created by apartheid in South Africa didn't end until the world stood up to stop that. Granted, it takes owning up to a lot of wrongs which many are uncomfortable with acknowledging, and are too busy pointing their fingers at the wrongs of other side to even consider. Hence the need for the Truth and Reconciliation Commission in South Africa, which would surely do good for Israelis and Palestinians too if only we took the initiative to arrange such closure to the conflict rather than continuing to perpetuate it.

 

[Zebo]

In the muslim religion it singular not tangential to subjugate and humiliate infidels and even those not quite muslim enough to the total regulation of life and explanation of the universe Islam offers stunting economic and human growth. So being without oil Palestine would have been a backwards tribal racist shithole like any other Muslim country.

Hell just look what they did to the beautiful hotels, power plants and housing and beaches Israeli had built on the Sinai before returning it to Egypt.

 

[kylebisme]

Israel tore down their settlements in the Sinai themselves before withdrawing, and your screed against Islam is just as delusional as your account of that history.

 

[SheriffA00]

I hear there are a million Palestinians in Israel, is that true ?

I doubt there would be a million Jews living in Palestine.

20% of the current Israeli population are Palestinians. These Palestinians are treated as second class citizens even though they are Israeli citizens. Often these neighborhoods within Israel are not given the same rights as the other 80%. Laws are often passed to ensure that the minority is kept from obtaining government positions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel

 

[SheriffA00]

A balance of fairness???
as in you get 1 tank...we get one tank...you get one f-16 we get one f-16??
The balance need not come from the Israeli side....
The problem is the Palestinian people do not have the will to elect a government that is not hell bent on destroying Israel........no balance of fairness will ever come into play as long as you have more than one entity in Palestine who does not care about Peace or the Palestinian people...that entity I am talking about is NOt Israel...it`s Hamas and Hezbollah....and whatever other faction wants Israeli`s dead.....

O)kay--I am now waiting for all the Palestinian sympathizer to rise up in arms..lol

The balance needs to come from the UN. Israel is in violation of more resolutions than any other country or group in the entire world. This is despite the US vetoing most resolutions that go against Israelis continued aparthied of the Palestinian people. When the AIPAC Lobby finally disappears from America you will see an equal treatment. Until then the politicians that vote for Israel will continue to do so to ensure their pockets stay fat and their are not attacked via smear campaigns.

 

[EagleKeeper]

A balance of fairness???
as in you get 1 tank...we get one tank...you get one f-16 we get one f-16??
The balance need not come from the Israeli side....
The problem is the Palestinian people do not have the will to elect a government that is not hell bent on destroying Israel........no balance of fairness will ever come into play as long as you have more than one entity in Palestine who does not care about Peace or the Palestinian people...that entity I am talking about is NOt Israel...it`s Hamas and Hezbollah....and whatever other faction wants Israeli`s dead.....

O)kay--I am now waiting for all the Palestinian sympathizer to rise up in arms..lol

The balance needs to come from the UN. Israel is in violation of more resolutions than any other country or group in the entire world. This is despite the US vetoing most resolutions that go against Israelis continued aparthied of the Palestinian people. When the AIPAC Lobby finally disappears from America you will see an equal treatment. Until then the politicians that vote for Israel will continue to do so to ensure their pockets stay fat and their are not attacked via smear campaigns.

One must also realize that the majority of the resolutions were political based led from the Arab nations and backed by the communist blocs.

Look at how many resolutions have been put up against the Palestinians and their proxies

 

[SheriffA00]

Where do I start, so many errors here. let me touch upon a few. First of all the jews back in the early part of the 19th century were the ones committing terrorist attacks. They were blowing up buses and buildings. The Palestinians did not come up with this by themselves. They saw it work for the jewish people.

The restraint issue is FALSE. Israel went into Gaza becuase over 10 years of rockets, 11 people were killed. The incursion into Gaza cost another 11 lives. Gaza lost over 1400 lives in 3 weeks, not 10 years.

This means for every Israeli life they killed 66 Palestinian lives. This also means every day of the incursion Israel killed 66 Palestinians. Lets not forget Lebanon, where the numbers are similar.

There were even t-shirts printed with an image of pregnant palestinian woman in sniper cross hairs. The bottom read, "1 shot, 2 kills".

let me quote Ariel Sharon, “I vow that if I was just an Israeli civilian and I met a Palestinian I would burn him and I would make him suffer before killing him.”

The argument of restraint is garbage.

Lemon Law,

This simple assumption on "what if" goes, in my eyes, to clarify several points:

1. No Arab country, let alone Arab population, was ever in an existential danger because of Israel. Ever. If Israel wasn't attacked in 1948, I'm pretty certain it would not go to war over anything. The population was non-aggressive - many well educated European Jews who ran away from the issues in Europe. I can't see them initiating a war to expand their territory, although no one can know for sure;

2. For the Arabs, it was always a matter of respect more than anything else. They feel - justly - robbed and invaded. But this is weighed against the very existence of the Jewish people. One side feels injustice, while the other fears for its collective lives;

3. All considered, Israel showed more restraint and civility in its conflicts than any other country around. Israel name is many times brought up with allegations of ethnic cleansing; this is of course bullshit. So far, the only country to attempt ethnic cleansing of Palestinians was Jordan (Black September);

4. However good intentioned you are, you still have to operate in a certain environment. That of the middle east can not be compared to Quebec. Your adversaries have certain moral and ways of operation, you have to adjust. If they fight from populated area, you WILL be forced to shoot into population, can't escape it. You can only try to minimize your losses;

5. The most amazing thing is - can you point at another country which is hanging on the brink of extinction like Israel? Which ONE country in the world got attacked over and over again by a multitude of countries and organizations, many times its size? It has no example anywhere.
Arabs have lost many wars and some territories but they are all still standing. An Israeli defeat would surely be a 2nd holocaust.

This is why, in my eyes, Israel is perhaps the only country in the world that can morally possess nuclear weapons. While other countries do it for influence and balance, in the case of Israel, it's a matter of life and death.
If you gave Israel the choice of WMDs or complete normalization and eternal peace, I don't think it would take more than one minute for the Israelis to decide.

This is not, and it has never been, a balanced conflict. This is not between two countries fighting for territory. This is much more profound.

 

[SheriffA00]

Very good you brought that up - It goes to show why there can never be true peace in the near future, and why Israel is justified in its fierce retaliation against attacks.

And this fierce retaliation will only harbor more terrorist and hate against Israel and its partners. For every dead Palestinian child their is an exponential increase in hatred towards Israel. If Israel hasn't figured it out yet its only getting worse and worse. It is human nature that when someone is against the wall he will do anything regardless of right and wrong to protect himself. Many Jewish scholars are starting to see this, that is why there is a divide growing within Israel and a new lobbyist group in the US trying to fix these ways. Israel has tried for 60 years to shed power through fear, it clearly has not worked.

The world now is starting to see the treatment of the Palestinians at the hands of Israel and its partners, and they are sympathizing. Motorola had to sell its Israel division, the UK has slowed down its arms exports, and massive boycotts are hurting Zionist organizations, former Israeli soldiers are joining human rights groups to tell of the horrors they committed. Every time a pro Palestinian speaks there is a massive effort to shut him up. Smear campaigns are started, universities are being forced to silence professors and cancels talks.

Despite Israel's best efforts to keep the media out of Gaza it failed. If Israel is the most moral army in the world, it should not fear letting the world see its actions. I promise you that the truth will prevail, as a Palestinian myself all i have to do is put a video camera in every Palestinians hands and let the world see the truth. Thank god for the internet, it gives even the poorest person the ability to be heard!!!

 

[JEDIYoda]

as a Palestinian myself all i have to do is put a video camera in every Palestinians hands and let the world see the truth. Thank god for the internet, it gives even the poorest person the ability to be heard!!!

I seriously doubt you are palestinian but let us pretend that you are...
No wonder your posts lack any historical accuracy.

No the jews were not blowing up buses and buildings...that is so totally idiotic and just plain stoopid comment on your part... your statements ned to have links...you made the accusation back it up.....


The restraint issue is so very very true you have no idea the damage that could have been inflicted......you also have no idea at all what the word restraint means!

shalom!

 

[BassBomb]

what if we lost WW2?

stupid questions

 

[SamurAchzar]

what if we lost WW2?

stupid questions

Only when you think of the situation thoroughly - and "what if" situations are key to that, can you realize two key points:

1. That it's very easy to support the poor oppressed Palestinians, but imaging them in a controlling position over the Jews in Israel is frightening;

2. That Israel is in existential danger each and every day, and its action should be seen in this light. It doesn't warrant it a completely free reign, but should definitely expand on its means of self defense compared to, lets say, Sweden.

 

[SheriffA00]

I seriously doubt you are palestinian but let us pretend that you are...
No wonder your posts lack any historical accuracy.

No the jews were not blowing up buses and buildings...that is so totally idiotic and just plain stoopid comment on your part... your statements ned to have links...you made the accusation back it up.....


The restraint issue is so very very true you have no idea the damage that could have been inflicted......you also have no idea at all what the word restraint means!

shalom!

Is it so out of the realm of reality that I am Palestinian. Does it hurt to know that Israel let one reach America via full scholarships plus stipends to reach the Phd level, become an American citizen, get invited to Clinton's inauguration, become a very successful real estate developer raise a family in america where the children are in medical school and engineers? How dare you say I'm not Palestinian?

The jews did in fact blow up buses, please read a book called the Israeli Lobby written by, yes you guessed it, a jew. He states that the jews were first acting as terrorist and they still are today. The difference is you call it state terrorism. Please get your facts from places other than Fox News and learn what the truth is.

If Israel did in fact restrain themselves then why did they use cluster bombs in lebanon in civlian areas that have a proven explosion rate of only 60%? That means the 10s of thousands of bombs released on Lebanon are laying around unexploded waiting for children to play with them and kill themselves.

Why did Israel use white phosphorus on the Palestinians? They do not cause any damage to rocket launch sites, but they will burn the flesh of a human right to the bone. If Israel did really show restraint then why is the most moral army in the world being being discussed in the UN for crimes against humanity. If they were truly showing restraint their name would not even be on the agenda?

 

[SamurAchzar]

And this fierce retaliation will only harbor more terrorist and hate against Israel and its partners. For every dead Palestinian child their is an exponential increase in hatred towards Israel. If Israel hasn't figured it out yet its only getting worse and worse.

Why don't the Palestinians put up their weapons, declare an unconditional surrender and THEN ask the world to enforce negotiations on Israel?

It is human nature that when someone is against the wall he will do anything regardless of right and wrong to protect himself.

Palestinians aren't protecting themselves, unless you can explain to me how suicide bombings protect the Palestinians, or shooting rockets from the Gaza strip after it was unconditionally transferred to Palestinians hands by the Israelis. Talk about kicking the bucket...
This is typical Palestinian behavior. When the Palestinian had the highest economical growth rate in the world, Arafat feared the public would settle for comfortable life and started the 2nd Intifada.

Many Jewish scholars are starting to see this, that is why there is a divide growing within Israel and a new lobbyist group in the US trying to fix these ways. Israel has tried for 60 years to shed power through fear, it clearly has not worked.

Israeli public again and again chose on leaders upon their promise of peace. Kadima party was elected with an overwhelming majority just to disengage from the Palestinians. I'd like to see a similar movement among the Palestinians.

The world now is starting to see the treatment of the Palestinians at the hands of Israel and its partners, and they are sympathizing. Motorola had to sell its Israel division, the UK has slowed down its arms exports, and massive boycotts are hurting Zionist organizations, former Israeli soldiers are joining human rights groups to tell of the horrors they committed.

Motorola sold a tiny fraction of its activities in Israel, and it had nothing to do with any boycott. Funny Palestinian sites declare it was done two days after the boycott - do you really think Motorola sold the division in two days?
So Motorola still has a huge activity in Israel, and so does Freescale (their semiconductor division), and so does Intel (just opened up another fab in Israel), and Google, and Cisco - you name it. US VCs rate Israel as 2nd in investments only to the Silicon Valley. The Israeli economy has never been stronger.
There was once a common notion that the Israeli economy needs peace. Well thanks to the Palestinians peace never came, but the Israeli economy never did better than now.

Despite Israel's best efforts to keep the media out of Gaza it failed. If Israel is the most moral army in the world, it should not fear letting the world see its actions. I promise you that the truth will prevail, as a Palestinian myself all i have to do is put a video camera in every Palestinians hands and let the world see the truth. Thank god for the internet, it gives even the poorest person the ability to be heard!!!

Yea, like previous Palestinians hoaxes done to make IDF look bad.

What kind of a country will your people set up? Will it be a democracy? Will it be different than any other Arab/Muslim country? Will it be peaceful towards Israel? We all know the answers, don't we.

I'm happy the Israeli public let go of the illusion of peace with the Palestinians, and with regret I'm seeing the Muslim world making sure the West knows their true face. I think the Palestinians are going to have 10 more tough years ahead of them. I wouldn't worry about Israel.

 

[SheriffA00]

One must also realize that the majority of the resolutions were political based led from the Arab nations and backed by the communist blocs.

Look at how many resolutions have been put up against the Palestinians and their proxies

Lets put it this way, when the US decides it needs advice on middle eastern issues, and there is not one voice in the US senate speaking for the arabs but there are many jewish experts that are speaking there is a problem!