A fun game in alternative history: If Arabs won in 1948...

[SamurAchzar]

Back in 1948, the Israeli government had that fork in the road choice, to be a government promoting equal rights for its indigenous Jews, Palestinians, and Arab population, sadly it favored only Jews, and until Israel reverses that course, Israel will never know any peace.

What are you talking about? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab–Israeli_War

The 1948 Arab–Israeli War, known by Israelis as the War of Independence (Hebrew: מלחמת העצמאות‎, Milhemet HaAtzma'ut) or War of Liberation (Hebrew: מלחמת השחרור‎, Milhemet HaShachrur) and by Palestinians as the Catastrophe (Arabic: النكبة‎, al-Nakba), was the first in a series of wars fought between the newly declared State of Israel and its Arab neighbours in the long-running Arab-Israeli conflict.

The war commenced upon the termination of the British Mandate of Palestine in mid-May 1948 following a previous phase of civil war in 1947–1948. After the Arab rejection of the 1947 United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine (UN General Assembly Resolution 181) that would have created an Arab state and a Jewish state side by side, five Arab states invaded the territory of the former British Mandate of Palestine.

Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Lebanon and Syria attacked the state of Israel, leading to fighting mostly on the former territory of the British Mandate and for a short time also on the Sinai Peninsula and southern Lebanon.[citation needed] The war concluded with the 1949 Armistice Agreements, but it did not mark the end of the Arab-Israeli conflict.

 

[JEDIYoda]

What are you talking about? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab–Israeli_War

Lemon law has a way of writing his own version of history....

 

[JEDIYoda]

Quote:
Originally Posted by SamurAchzar
I agree that in retrospect, it was a pretty lousy decision. The thing I don't like is how many discussions degenerate to the very right of existence of Israel. It's about time, 60 years and many wars later, that it's accepted as a done deal.

The only way for there ever to be peace there and here is for the jews to move out and admit they were wrong.

You do not know what you are talking about and I seriously doubt your whole family is Jewish....just by the very nature of your meaningless dribble!!

 

[kylebisme]

The only way for there ever to be peace there and here is for the jews to move out and admit they were wrong.

Zionists do need to own up to the fact that their movement started this mess, but more ethnic cleansing isn't the answer. Even Hamas is down for a two-state solution on the basis of international law, and while I'd prefer to see one state with equal rights for all, the two states is a far practical solution.

What are you talking about? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_War

He is talking about the ethnic cleansing that you continue to deny even though it is well documented historical fact. You can find a limited preview of the revised version of the first book to go into Israel military records of that ethnic cleansing here, written by an ardent Zionist historian who contends the ethnic cleansing didn't go far enough.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Zionists do need to own up to the fact that their movement started this mess, but more ethnic cleansing isn't the answer. Even Hamas is down for a two-state solution on the basis of international law
[/q]

Not according to their agenda and rhetoric. They are fanatic Muslim clerics waging a Jihad on the Israelis. In reality they are no different than Hizballah - they will continue to confront Israel even after their territorial claims are settled in full.
FFS look at their Charter.

[q]
and while I'd prefer to see one state with equal rights for all
[/q]

Just as I'd like to see the entire population of Guantanamo released in your neighborhood. Hey, equality for all.

[q]
He is talking about the ethnic cleansing that you continue to deny even though it is well documented historical fact. You can find a limited preview of the revised version of the first book to go into Israel military records of that ethnic cleansing here, written by an ardent Zionist historian who contends the ethnic cleansing didn't go far enough.

First of all, the term Ethnic Cleansing might be a little misleading here, as it might be assumed that Israel murdered civilians - while in reality most of them simply fled the war of 1948.

Second, Israel should have completed this task and expel the remaining Arab civilians. They never wanted to truly coexist with the Jewish in Israel, and up to this moment don't see themselves as Israelis. They have a fast reproduction rate and I feel there will be some kind of civil war sometime in the horizon - unless Israel wisely demands population exchanges with the Palestinians coming to negoitate a final agreement.
There are many places inside Israel that a Jew can't set a foot at, while there's Jewish area in Israel that an Arab will has to fear for his life. Israeli Arabs have a high rate of tax evasion, have no loyalty to the country and don't do the mandatory IDF service. They might be right from their POV, but it doesn't matter.

I mean, you can look at it from a bullshit PC liberal point of view, or you can look in reality. And in reality, Arabs and Jews don't really get very well together, mostly because of the refusal of the former to accept the latter (and maybe rightly so). Separating between the populations is the most humane, just thing you can do. Better have people lose their homes than lose their lives.

 

[Lemon law]

As ole Samur Achzur says, "Separating between the populations is the most humane, just thing you can do. Better have people lose their homes than lose their lives."

Spoken in the finest traditions of a lilly white southern slaveholder trying to defend the old Jim Crow South.

But in the defense of Jim Crow, they at least made an half hearted effort to advance the separate but equal argument. Israel simply herds the Palestinians into concentration camps and then pretends to be amazed that the Palestinians are not thrilled and happy.

In short sammy, its not only that Israel took that wrong fork in the road in 1948, 1949,... and then stopped, they are still pursuing the same policy still as they keep settling on disputed land in East Jerusalem and the West Bank. And none of your revisionist history can change that FACT.

And just like our Jim Crow south, they lost that5 separation argument and our country is the better for it. And in the fullness of time, Israel is going to lose in the same way. There are only two ways forward, either a separate Palestinian State, or
Israel will have to ASSIMILATE Palestinians with equal rights, thus dooming a Jewish majority dominated Israel. And as Israel fights against a Palestinians State, they only make a single State solution inevitable.

The time has now come for Israel to choose which they want, because business as usual will become no longer an option.

 

[Lemon law]

Accidental double post.

But maybe I should use the space to point out ole Sammy's signature line of "Yes, Yes, and furthermore, Yes.",
sounds very similar to the George C. Wallace cry of " Segregation now, segregation forever."

Ironically, as segregation became a thing of the past, the ever adaptive George C. Wallace retained the Governor position in Alabama for many years by treating whites and blacks equally. There is no reason Israel cannot do the same.

 

[Ozoned]

The Quran,,, the hadith,,, sharia law,,, won't allow a single state solution with equal rights.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Accidental double post.

But maybe I should use the space to point out ole Sammy's signature line of "Yes, Yes, and furthermore, Yes.",
sounds very similar to the George C. Wallace cry of " Segregation now, segregation forever."

Ironically, as segregation became a thing of the past, the ever adaptive George C. Wallace retained the Governor position in Alabama for many years by treating whites and blacks equally. There is no reason Israel cannot do the same.

Manipulating much? How is the situation of the blacks related to that of the Palestinians? Blacks never called for the demise of the USA, blacks never threatened the population with terrorism. Blacks didn't have any territorial claims, and never favored the interests of their African brethren over that of the US citizens. The blacks never came to being a majority, and most of all they weren't Muslims. I don't know if you noticed that already, but on a group level, Muslims don't tend to integrate very well with other societies.

 

[Lemon law]

Manipulating much Sammy, of course Muslims are going to react violently when Israel steals land and discriminates against Muslims.

And no I never noticed Muslims are unable to to integrate into other societies.

Here is the Wiki census.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Muslim_population

Gee, Canada with 2% Muslims must be a hot bed of violence. The USA may, by some estimates has twice as many Muslims as Jews.

Religious tolerance basically works the same world wide, religion itself is not such a divisive issue, but pair it with economic discrimination and it becomes an explosive issue.

 

[kylebisme]

Not according to their agenda and rhetoric.

Yes, according to their agenda and statements such as this one from the Chairman of the Hamas Political Bureau:

The first part: Hamas, we had announced, that is ready to cooperate with the law and with any international or regional effort or Arab, certainly to reach real peace in the region. We and all the Palestinians and Arabs accepted the borders of June 4, 1967. The problem is not with the Palestinians, Hamas, Fatah or the Arab.

There it is, the problem is that Israel simply refuses to accept the 1967 borders, which are the international recognized borders under international law.

They are fanatic Muslim clerics waging a Jihad on the Israelis.

In fact, they are refugees of ethnic cleansing and people born and raised under foreign military occupation, some of whom are fanatic Muslim clerics waging a Jihad on the state which ethnically cleansed their families from their homeland and continues to hold them under military occupation and colonize their homeland out from under them and killing off whoever gets in the way.

In reality they are no different than Hizballah - they will continue to confront Israel even after their territorial claims are settled in full.

That is a wildly speculative argument considering the fact that Israel still illegally occupies the Lebanese territory of Shebaa Farms and regularly violates Lebanese territory otherwise by terrorising the population with sonic-boom flyovers and such.

FFS look at their Charter.

The "Hamas Charter" was written by some nobody decades ago, never ratified by Hamas, and no one demonstrates allegiance to it. Granted, they aren't going to be bullied into denouncing it either as long as Israel continues to colonize what little is left of Palestine. On the other hand, look at the Likud Platform, which was ratified by Likud, and their members do demonstrate allegiance too, denying Palestinians right to sovereignty in what little they have left of their homeland under international law, while continuing to colonize it out from under them:

The Jewish communities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza are the realization of Zionist values. Settlement of the land is a clear expression of the unassailable right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel and constitutes an important asset in the defense of the vital interests of the State of Israel. The Likud will continue to strengthen and develop these communities and will prevent their uprooting.
...

The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river.

Again, the problem is that Israel simply refuses to accept the 1967 borders, which are the international recognized borders under international law.

Just as I'd like to see the entire population of Guantanamo released in your neighborhood. Hey, equality for all.

It seems more like you'd prefer the entire population of Guantanamo, Palestinians and perhaps Arabs as a whole denied human rights eternally. Am I right?

First of all, the term Ethnic Cleansing might be a little misleading here, as it might be assumed that Israel murdered civilians - while in reality most of them simply fled the war of 1948.

Nearly half of them were driven out in the months prior to the 1948 war, some were murdered, and there was much pillaging and a bit of raping too. It was an act of ethnic cleansing, as described by the definition of the term.

Second, Israel should have completed this task and expel the remaining Arab civilians. They never wanted to truly coexist with the Jewish in Israel, and up to this moment don't see themselves as Israelis.

They are non-Jews who had their homeland overrun by Jews bent on turning it into an ethnic nationalist state for themselves. Do you suggest any ethnic group which wants to form an ethnic nationalist state pick their plot of land and expel all those who would prefer not to be second class citizens in such a state, or do you just promote such bigotry when it comes to Israel?

They have a fast reproduction rate and I feel there will be some kind of civil war sometime in the horizon - unless Israel wisely demands population exchanges with the Palestinians coming to negoitate a final agreement.

Perhaps we can ship them off to Poland and wall them into ghettos there. :twisted:

There are many places inside Israel that a Jew can't set a foot at...

Name one, and I'll find you a Jew who can attest to walking freely there.

...while there's Jewish area in Israel that an Arab will has to fear for his life.

That is even more true over in the Palestinian territories, in Arab areas which Israelis regularly assault.

Israeli Arabs have a high rate of tax evasion, have no loyalty to the country and don't do the mandatory IDF service. They might be right from their POV, but it doesn't matter.

Rather, many of them are too poor to be required to pay taxes, and though military service isn't manditory for them a few do enlist.

I mean, you can look at it from a bullshit PC liberal point of view, or you can look in reality. And in reality, Arabs and Jews don't really get very well together, mostly because of the refusal of the former to accept the latter (and maybe rightly so). Separating between the populations is the most humane, just thing you can do. Better have people lose their homes than lose their lives.

I'm not a liberal, and I don't give a shit about political correctness, but I'm not a bigot either, and I'm aware of the reality of Palestinians accepting the principle of peace on the basis of international law which Israel continues to reject. I would be great if you could bring yourself to come to terms with such facts.

 

[Freshgeardude]

The difference between a completely Jewish state and a completely Islamic state is that the Jewish state wont persecute anyone who is not jewish, wont beat them (police, not accounting for citizens) and wont kick them out simply because they want to visit. IF THERE IS NO CONFLICT

Under Muslim rule over Jerusalem, the western wall, which jews and muslims alike claim to be holy, was a trash dump for the muslims. Under jewish control, both can be there.

the grave of, i believe, abraham, which is in an arab territory is too risky for a jew to go near today in fear of death. back in the 80s, they could go freely. (I know this because my dad took pictures there when he visited)


I will bet my ass off, if the arab nations never attacked israel, in 48 or any time after, never fought them, let them have their territory and go to the other areas, the Israeli borders would be thinner than paper.

 

[Freshgeardude]

Manipulating much Sammy, of course Muslims are going to react violently when Israel steals land and discriminates against Muslims.

And no I never noticed Muslims are unable to to integrate into other societies.

Here is the Wiki census.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Muslim_population

Gee, Canada with 2% Muslims must be a hot bed of violence. The USA may, by some estimates has twice as many Muslims as Jews.

Religious tolerance basically works the same world wide, religion itself is not such a divisive issue, but pair it with economic discrimination and it becomes an explosive issue.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaPz7p-1-bk&feature=player_embedded

that is in sweden. Many of the countries with a 30% or greater muslim population, much of Europe for example, are falling into horrible problems because of them.


I would also like to add this.

If the Islamic religion did not exist in this time, minus NK and leave a hole where Islam was, there would be international peace.

I am not talking about small (relative to the world) crimes like robberies, murders and rape, those will always be a part of society. Nor the fight with drug cartels etc.

The facts to support this is that all of the problems in ME are Islamic extremists. The Islamic religion comes in one way of practice, full. You either agree with everything or are not islamic. This is why the religion is full of extremists.

 

[Lemon law]

More bullshit from Freshgeardude, as Israel is the only remaining apartheid state in the world.

Israel is about as fair and balanced as Fox news.

 

[Lemon law]

Revisionist history will not get it, the time is rapidly running out for a peaceful solution. The Israeli strategy has not worked for 61 years, thinking it will work for another 61 years is only a fool's delusion.

As for me, I prefer a peaceful and rational resolution, if not, the terrorists will win in the long term.

 

[Freshgeardude]

More bullshit from Freshgeardude, as Israel is the only remaining apartheid state in the world.

Israel is about as fair and balanced as Fox news.

the only difference on what is considered bullshit by you and by me is the reader.


Everything I have said is not bullshit in my terms. most of the stuff you say is bullshit to me. the thing that matters most is what is true, which I believe to by my stuff.


Saying that about Fox News is better than any other news station. At least they give news CNN, NBC, MSNBC and other liberal media networks wouldnt even show because it would be against their ideals, even if it were true.

 

[tvarad]

Revisionist history will not get it, the time is rapidly running out for a peaceful solution. The Israeli strategy has not worked for 61 years, thinking it will work for another 61 years is only a fool's delusion.

As for me, I prefer a peaceful and rational resolution, if not, the terrorists will win in the long term.

It never ceases to amaze me that this small sliver of land that would disappear when compared to the size of any significant country can have the undies of the Islamic world so bunched up that they are willing to bring down the whole world because of it.

The terrorists will NOT win. The very fact that they have taken up targets that are of shock value rather than any military significance in their supposed "struggle" against Israel shows that they have already lost.

 

[Freshgeardude]

It never ceases to amaze me that this small sliver of land that would disappear when compared to the size of any significant country can have the undies of the Islamic world so bunched up that they are willing to bring down the whole world because of it.

The terrorists will NOT win. The very fact that they have taken up targets that are of shock value rather than any military significance in their supposed "struggle" against Israel shows that they have already lost.

I agree.

unless the terrorists get a hold of a nuclear weapon and launch it at tel aviv, jerusalem, haifa, or possibly eilat, while in itself would kill thousands of their "brethren," there is no way the terrorists will win.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Revisionist history will not get it, the time is rapidly running out for a peaceful solution. The Israeli strategy has not worked for 61 years, thinking it will work for another 61 years is only a fool's delusion.

As for me, I prefer a peaceful and rational resolution, if not, the terrorists will win in the long term.

sad....
very sad......
in fact almost pathetic that you would gussy up with that phoney baloney dribble ---- As for me, I prefer a peaceful solution......you should be more honest in what you say....
Well come to think of it it`s what you are not saying or are failing to leave out...

People lemon Law says he wants a peaceful soultion, that in and of itself is pathetic and well just plain assinine...
What lemon law failed to mentiion was that he is a Palestinian sympathizer who believes that everything that happens in the Middle East is Israel`s fault.
What he failed to mention was he believes Israel shopuld bend over and grab their ankles and allow themselves to be a*& raped in order to achieve peace.
In fact lemon law favors Israel giving back all the land they have acquired via military engagements.
The bottom line is Lemon Law belives that the palestinians can do no wrong and as such in his opinion it would seem he thinks Israel should man up and give back everything that in lemon law`s opinion does not belong to Israel!

There are just some things that will never ever happens.

Shalom!

 

[Lemon law]

Terrorists need not get a hold of nuclear weapons to win, not when they can use chemical and biological weapons with equal effect.

How far off is that day, as I worry its not far off.

And the only way to stave that off is for Israel and responsible Arabs to reduce tensions. The Annapolis peace conference showed the Arabs are ready, but Israel continues to keep increasing the tensions by settling on disputed land.

 

[tvarad]

Terrorists need not get a hold of nuclear weapons to win, not when they can use chemical and biological weapons with equal effect.

How far off is that day, as I worry its not far off.

And the only way to stave that off is for Israel and responsible Arabs to reduce tensions. The Annapolis peace conference showed the Arabs are ready, but Israel continues to keep increasing the tensions by settling on disputed land.

Setting aside the cyclical argument about who is right and who is wrong, let us assume for a moment that the Israelis lose their military magic potion that's kept the assorted thugs, dictators and plain clowns like Gaddafi running the Arab/Muslim world at bay for all these decades and the West decides to throw Israel under the bus to curry favor with the medieval mindset that's been causing all this terrorist mayhem. You can rest assured that their next target would be the civilized world itself (if it not already is) under some other trumped up victimization charge (like the Nazis did to re-arm after WWI). Luckily the civilized world is waking up and understanding the whole dimension to this Islamo-fascist assault on humanity.

Setting off a WMD is not going to have a 9/11 deer-in-the-headlights response. The world is much better prepared for such an eventuality and the Islamic world will be commiting collective hara-kiri if it allows such an attack to take place from it's terroritory (and that includes those who claim plausible deniability).

 

[Lemon law]

OK tvarad, lets play your game. The technologies are already in place. Chemical and biological weapons are already old hat, so is rocket technology, combine the two and terrorists are in the business of really making Israel hurt.

In terms of launch sites, that is the missing ingredient, lack of rocket range. But as that range increases launch site options go to every point on the compass. Does it really make any difference where the terrorist rocket carrying chemical and biological weapons comes from? Lets see, maybe from the Mediterranean sea, answer, Israel nukes the Mediterranean sea. Or maybe terrorists will choose to smuggle rockets into Lebanon, Jordan, or Egypt without the knowledge or consent of those countries. Then its even better yet for the terrorists when Israel attacks those nations in a false flag attack. Making it a matter of Arab survival to counter attack Israel.

Hope you get the point, terrorists are not very responsible folks and neither is the government of Israel. As Israel continues to kite hatreds and terrorist funding, that kind of a future train wreck becomes more and more inevitable.

The sensible course is and remains to defuse tensions that will in turn reduce terrorists funding and sympathies. And instead Israel continues settlement policies that do the opposite.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Terrorists need not get a hold of nuclear weapons to win, not when they can use chemical and biological weapons with equal effect.

How far off is that day, as I worry its not far off.

And the only way to stave that off is for Israel and responsible Arabs to reduce tensions. The Annapolis peace conference showed the Arabs are ready, but Israel continues to keep increasing the tensions by settling on disputed land.

More fear mongering on your part...
So I take it no comment is akin to agreeing what I stated.

Here is a link concerning the annapolis peace conference-- http://www.globalpolicy.org/compone...palestine/38341-the-annapolis-conference.html

The 2007 Annapolis conference revisited the possibility of an independent Palestinian state. However, the split between Hamas, which rules the Gaza Strip and Fatah, which controls the West Bank, must be resolved before an independent Palestine can emerge. In addition, Israel must stop building settlements in the West Bank and it must address the rights of the Palestinian refugees.

 

[JEDIYoda]

OK tvarad, lets play your game. The technologies are already in place. Chemical and biological weapons are already old hat, so is rocket technology, combine the two and terrorists are in the business of really making Israel hurt.

In terms of launch sites, that is the missing ingredient, lack of rocket range. But as that range increases launch site options go to every point on the compass. Does it really make any difference where the terrorist rocket carrying chemical and biological weapons comes from? Lets see, maybe from the Mediterranean sea, answer, Israel nukes the Mediterranean sea. Or maybe terrorists will choose to smuggle rockets into Lebanon, Jordan, or Egypt without the knowledge or consent of those countries. Then its even better yet for the terrorists when Israel attacks those nations in a false flag attack. Making it a matter of Arab survival to counter attack Israel.

Hope you get the point, terrorists are not very responsible folks and neither is the government of Israel. As Israel continues to kite hatreds and terrorist funding, that kind of a future train wreck becomes more and more inevitable.

The sensible course is and remains to defuse tensions that will in turn reduce terrorists funding and sympathies. And instead Israel continues settlement policies that do the opposite.

Notice anything wacko about this picture....
Lemon Law conveniently leaves out any mention of h
Hamas and Fatah being dealt with....interesting...so Israel is suppose to bend over and spread em wide huh.....

 

[tvarad]

Lemon Law,
Your scenarios remind me of a Looney Tunes cartoon sketch that have no basis in reality as to consequences. Maybe you should stop watching so much TV on Saturday morning.