IT people have an attitude because, yes, everyone treats them like crap. People treat them like crap because the people the IT people deal with either have more education, make more money, or both. If you're going in to IT, you know this. You know you "only" have IT education, and you know you're "only" going to make IT money. It aint some big mystery. Don't like it? You have two options: 1) go back to school and get a better job 2) change human nature so people don't have superiority complexes.
alkemyst
No Lifer
- Feb 13, 2001
- 83,769
- 19
- 81
Perhaps a toner monkey or something you are refering too...
I am more IS though, but regardless the code changes and implementations we roll out increases efficiency and profits majorly. Also it helps others make more for the company.
However, one user errors repeated over and over shows incompetance, in our company if we document several, the user goes back to training.
Also accounting doesn't bring in 'income' either, they definitely contribute though, same with office management,...many IS/IT departments bill their time back out to the departments though and become 'profit' centers.
Sorry some geek can get you so tweaked. He is probably doing your chick too as he fixes he iPod.
LOLOriginally posted by: FreshPrince
IT is the only department in companies that gets used and abused...
it's just a job, like anyone else have a job. although, we often do about 10 people's jobs, while others only do 1 job...
how often do you see IT openly criticize marketing for designing that stupid looking billboard? or engineering for taking their sweet ass time creating total crap that's not even marketable? we almost never do that to any department, because we're too busy helping stupid people. you take away the routers, firewalls, app servers like: email, database, file, and the phones/blackberries now what do you get? A company that can't even survive for a day. We make what you do everyday possible. Without us how will marketing keep in contact with their customers? they can't email or chat on the phone about nothing. What about engineering? what happens when we take away your computers or stop backing up your files? no firewall to protect your crappy work from being hacked or stolen? Not that anyone want to steals your crap anyways...
what about the design team? what happens when we take away your precious MACs or your $20K color printer? not that it matters because most of you are too busy downloading mp3's to your ipods and praying to the steve blowjobs shrine right? :laugh:
Accounting, what will you do without that database server? I guess you can do everything on paper like the old days...LOL. Ya, that's right, we implemented CRM and made you look obsolete
HR, what heppens when we take away the computers and stopped encrypting your files? I guess you can start storing everything on paper as well? How do you use companies like choicepoint to do background checks? without their IT folks, I guess it'll take 6 months to verify a candidate right?
executives, what do you do when we take away your emails or blackberries? you might as well kill yourself now? and no, you haven't gotten any emails in the last 2 minutes...stop freaking out about it. why do you have to keep every piece of email back to 1991? You do know that pulling up a 1GB pst over the network is going to be slow right? what happens when we take away your media center pc and your plasma screen or dish? I guess no more golf channel ...
consultants what will you do without your laptop or blackberry? I guess you can lug a large briefcase full of papers with you, and when you're done, use your client's fax machine to fax everything back to the office :roll:
on top of all the above trivial things, we have our real responsibilities to handle as well:
build more servers, workstations, firewalls
configure more laptops, blackberries, routers, switches, printers, fax machines, phones, copiers
configure more email, database, CRM
document everything for audits and make sure everything is complient with recent laws
prepare for budgets, yes that's why we can't upgrade your office from 2000 to 2003 on your whim. don't blame me if your short sighted boss didn't budget you a laptop this year...and no, the SQL server box you see on my shelf can't be used for you as well. If you want one, you're gonna have to pay for it. your ass isn't on the line when IT gets audited...
manage lazy employee
oh ya, we also backup the 800 Terabytes of your "important" data stored on the network weekly. yes, that's 800 terabytes...we all know you've duplicated your files atleast 10 times on the network...why don't we have disk quotas? because you keep lying to your boss that you need the space.
In short, IT people are over-worked, under-paid, and have to make miracles out of your shoe-string budgets.
, good post. I'm the Systems Admin for my corporation and I set the tone and work ethic for IT. The end user does not fear us and we do not treat their ignorance with contempt; even if they deserve less than a helping hand. I will however hand them their ass if they shrug their incompetence off on IT; because we do endeavor to provide all tools that are necessary to move our corporaton forward and there is no one, NO ONE who puts in more evening and weekend hours keeping the "Revenue Generators" and core systems in play.I like how it's convenient to flap an argument to extremes to support a bent. Sure, it's easy to say that this or that is not a direct revenue generator. But, that's also aged thinking in today's technology steeped business world.
How do I generate revenue as an IT Manager? Hmm, you'd like remote access to download the marketing department's current powerpoint for your next high-profile meeting in the Virgin Islands? What's that, you'd like real-time 24hr wireless email, eh make that International email and voice communications and make sure we can do it with any device you want to use? Why stop there. How would you like it if we gave you real-time wireless CRM and Sale's Analysis to your PDA so you don't have to lug a laptop around and you can get your numbers on the fly. You'd like that wouldn't you, you revenue generating machine.
But that's just the "Revenue Generators". We're not digging into the ERP/MRP processes and the gads of IT equipment that serves up data for statistical analysis saving EVERY department from actually having to do everything the 'hard' way. Yeah, actually use that calculator that's sitting on your desk collecting dust.
My non-Revenue generating ass just put in copiers that scan to file and email and our new
e-documentation system proves our product historicity within seconds instead of days and it's become a critical aspect of our HIPAA, SOX, FDA, SEC compliance (yeah, that audit that used to take all of 4th quarter to validate? You can now do it in 1/4 the time). My non-Revenue generating system can serve up the data in seconds saving you from shutting down your department to do a lengthy manual audit of your extensive paperwork vault.
Sure, every department is important. But IT is still treated as the red headed step-child's second cousin's friend when it comes to anyone in corporate actually understanding the comprehensive VALUE that IT facilitates on nearly EVERY level of operation in most companies today.
The fact is, the poor judgement in thinking on the part of those who don't understand the value of IT is what fosters the frustration and ignorance in the workplace.
Everybody loves the person who cuts the checks, few if any people think about the system that's being maintained that the AP clerk uses to get payday 'done'.
For that matter, that new wireless email system that's supposed to revolutionize how our sale's reps do business.
I make business easier to get done. In fact, I make everyone's jobs easier as a result of the systems that I put into place, test, maintain and fix on call. No one puts in the hours me and my team does and NO ONE continually learns and trains as much in their job field in my company than we do.
So, how is it that we don't generate revenue? Here's a quick way to realize the value without having to mince words or draft ROI reports or have three other consultants come in and tell you the exact same thing I just told you... See that little switch there in the Server Room? yeah, lift the barrier block and throw that sucker. I'm sure someone will remember how to use a calculator and figure out how much a day of downtime costs my corporation in short order.
*Imagine how your revenue report would look if my business facilitating IT processes weren't as good as they are. We make you look good. We save the company money; which if you understand the broad concept and don't need wide sweeping gestures to get you there; means that we provide the vehicle to generate revenue.
Oh yeah, and the reason why our triple level authentication didn't prevent Joe Dirt from 'hacking' our email system and parsing trade secrets? Well, it might have had something to do with the fact that when you were late for your tee time with that prospective client you put your RSA key and Laptop w/password taped to it into the back seat of your rental car. When I submit the report, the CEO, being the nimble minded person that he is says; but that's only two levels of authentication - the RSA Key and the Laptop Login. Well, that's really all they needed being that the "Power User" had auto-entried all his passwords to every corporate resource and website he's bookmarked.
But I'M the one who gets the call at O'Dark thirty to lock down the system because someone 'hacked' our system. Rather than actually do my non-revenue generating job the next day I had to spend the day writing up an eloquent report detailing how our systems were not the cause of the compromise, how I've done everything possible to mitigate security breaches and how I'm going to prevent such issues from happening in the future; all the while being sure not to be sarcastic or roll my eyes or drop a name because *cough* you know, that's what those arrogant IT bastards do.
I love my work. We do it well. We are as invisible as we are able to be. But say that we don't generate revenue and you're only talking out of ignorance. Like I said, throw that switch on the wall over there. Let's see how fast your frustration level taps out... in real-time.
In regards to traditional accounting of costs; IT is a fixed cost; a non-revenue generator. But a company that only thinks of IT that way operates in ignorance and creates a liability in their inappropriate support or lack thereof of IT. Every department can be considered critical and indespensible. However, ONLY IT can immediately and irrepairably shut down business if it fails. Conversely, saying that failed IT systems can fail a business, that also means that IT generates revenue; albiet in a synergistic way.
Ah, almost forgot. EVERY department aside from IT has well defined roles or 'positions' that are specifically hired for. We have more overlap of job skills in IT than an 80 year old missing her dentures. Ask any one person in another department to do one of their co-workers tasks and you get looked at like you were from another planet.
Well, better stop there before the lengthy post becomes too much for you ADD Forum monkeys. too late.
**The OP was good too. There's truth to it. Just not an all encompassing truth when you roll up your sleeves and realize the value of IT.
IT people, stop whining. It's unfortunate that the huge overinflated dot com boom of the mid to late 90s made yall feel important, get over it.
By now SampSon, though there may be a few stragglers; the only dot.com'ers still in IT are those who actually know what they're doing. Nothing overinflated about it.
People whine about the condition their latest Fedex package arrived in and post asking if they should sue somebody. Why should actual IT people get up in arms over ignorant assumptions in a technology forum?
iversonyin
Diamond Member
- Aug 12, 2004
- 3,303
- 0
- 76
That attitude was fairly common with _every_ group in the last 3 tech companies I've worked for...
Read my post in the other thread. The "A friendly reminder from your IT staff" thread.
Why should they get up in arms? Because posts like this hurt their fragile little egos.
Did you read the other thread? That thread is the IT perspective, and is only half-right.
I moved from IT to non-IT work, I know exactly how both sides of the coin are.
Thing is you don't get all the other depts sending mass emails around bitching about every aspect of their job like the IT guys do.
That's because we monitor the email
. And I moved from non-IT work into IT work and neither my team or nor the IT Depts. of companies that I correspond with foster a negative attitude such as you describe. did you move out of IT or were you forced out?
like the other guy said, those of us still in IT actually know what we're doing, are paid well to do our jobs, and are all in higher level IT management positions. Myself for example, have moved on to executive level, overseeing IT operations. Although, I still like to keep my technical skills current. Just because there are morons that can't cut it in the business, doesn't mean the rest of us are worthless.
PC support at my job sucks. The guys there are bums and constantly play on their beefed up systems. The unix and dba folks though are great to work with though. They don't give me that hard a time when I fill up all their server disk space with old data.
If you must know, the CD costs next to nothing. It is the liscense that worth $1000. BTW, if they try to install something that they don't have the liscense for, it could costs the company a whole lot more.
Yeah, that's what we like. 2nd hand he said she said. Now, if all of ATOT would only post from direct personal experience... Forum post count would probably drop by two thirds.
HumblePie
Lifer
- Oct 30, 2000
- 14,665
- 440
- 126
Playing devil's advocate...
Sorry if I get a little angered, self possessive and annoyed of having to fix everyone's computer 20 times a day for doing stuff like spilling soda in it, downloading viruses while trying to look at kiddie porn, wondering the best way to eat their mouse, or someone else completely retarded.
Been on both sides of the fence. I've known some really arseholic IT people, and some really retarded "normal" workers that give IT people every right to be arseholic to them.
Really, nice rant though.
give it a 6/10 for lack of anger.. not enough swear words.
give it a 8/10 for effort
give it a 2/10 for lack of originality.
total score, 5/10 because I'm feeling generous.
Sorry if I get a little angered, self possessive and annoyed of having to fix everyone's computer 20 times a day for doing stuff like spilling soda in it, downloading viruses while trying to look at kiddie porn, wondering the best way to eat their mouse, or someone else completely retarded.
Been on both sides of the fence. I've known some really arseholic IT people, and some really retarded "normal" workers that give IT people every right to be arseholic to them.
Really, nice rant though.
give it a 6/10 for lack of anger.. not enough swear words.
give it a 8/10 for effort
give it a 2/10 for lack of originality.
total score, 5/10 because I'm feeling generous.
Zebo
Elite Member
- Jul 29, 2001
- 39,398
- 19
- 81
We have excellent IT so no beef there.. all pros with CS degrees some masters degreed even who know they have a good thang... ~ 80K-120K ea and minimal work/stress. I talked to one recently and he said market is really bad so it's not like they can just up and leave and get the same.
Martin, here's how that "very, very" simple request is handled in my corporation.
1. Request is received, detail reviewed, software version and applicability is validated against overall objective of project. Technical issues are researched and detailed for vendor and end user to agree on. Once technical detail is agreed on and signed off by all parties, the timeline is balanced against existing corporate IT projects. EVERY department has critical tasks but not every issue is as important as another. So even if a task is relatively simple, it can take quite a while before either I or my staff address it in our schedule. I allow 2/3 of my schedule to be determined by exterior projects to core IT. 1/3 of my project timelines are non-negotiable; these are core infrastructure driven and requirements that keep the business operating; the stuff that I answer for directly.
2. Depending on the approved budget for both the requesting department and the IT department the review process involves consideration of using existing software pending license availability, other projects coming offline perhaps making equipment or software available or a there might be a periodic bulk purchase of software to buy down licensing costs. If it's a cost that for some unknown reason hits my department (usually because of poor budget planning on the behalf of the requesting party), then I typically leverage my own departments money to replace critical servers with new gear and then make the older (though still viable) equipment available for redistribution. If a department budgets for the cost of new gear then every penny they budgeted will be spent buying the best of what can be had for their purposes. A person can think their request is a quick and easy purchase because that's all they look at is their task. When you look at a corporations processes as a whole you have to take into account more detail than that of the narrowly focused request.
3. There is a lot of detail that can go into a simple request on the back end and depending upon the existing IT workload; can take a significant amount of time. If the project doesn't work, the blame isn't put on the requestor who might not have provided enough information or the vendor who insisted their app works on this version w/out issue. The blame for failed technology rides on IT.
4. Additional considerations include but are not limited to rights management, network connectivity, IP structure, existing technology and future capability, asset management, virus protection, product lifecycle, warranty requirements, test environments for new apps, test environments for old apps working with new apps...
5. And then there's triage. That is, dealing with much of what the hubbub is about. Trouble calls, helpdesk, end user critical issues. I'm not placing blame or being sarcastic about anything here. Often a whole day or week or even longer can be spent on putting out 'fires'. Issues that are critical and because of one reason or another take precedence over anything else that might be going on. That can skew a well thought out schedule.
There is more that goes into a project than everything above and at times there is less that goes into it all. It's really nice when something truly as simple as putting an SQL server online is something that I can get done soon after it's requested. I do make a point of getting "quick/simple" things done up front if I can, even if it stretches another timeline just a little because some things though small can have an immediate impact on a workflow. But those concessions are made when I understand all aspects of a project and can get the work done without jeopardizing existing tasks. That takes time up front. I don't just consider my personal interests in managing my IT Department but I think of everything that IT touches and consider myself as having ownership in that process.
*Asking for Cliff's notes already? Well, that's why you think your "very, very simple request to IT" should have been done in an hour when it was actually done in six weeks. Perhaps your IT Dept. isn't on the ball or just dropped the ball when it came to missing the reformat or mabye they just decided to sit back and laugh at the fact that you requested a reformat after an SQL install. Who knows. The fact of the matter is that there is a lot of important detail in even small IT decisions. It doesn't always take a lot to do a task, but often there are other tasks more important before it.
*Lest you think my reason for not getting your SQL server done is because I'm posting on ATOT; I wrote this up after hours and am finally putting it online.
Sheesh, amazing a company can even function with people like that...
I don't doubt that there are IT departments out there that earn their bad reputation. I just recognize that a lot of the bad reputation is unwarranted and that the ignorance in the mud slinging is more often from misinformation and inexperience than it is through an accurate understanding of facts
1. Request is received, detail reviewed, software version and applicability is validated against overall objective of project. Technical issues are researched and detailed for vendor and end user to agree on. Once technical detail is agreed on and signed off by all parties, the timeline is balanced against existing corporate IT projects. EVERY department has critical tasks but not every issue is as important as another. So even if a task is relatively simple, it can take quite a while before either I or my staff address it in our schedule. I allow 2/3 of my schedule to be determined by exterior projects to core IT. 1/3 of my project timelines are non-negotiable; these are core infrastructure driven and requirements that keep the business operating; the stuff that I answer for directly.
2. Depending on the approved budget for both the requesting department and the IT department the review process involves consideration of using existing software pending license availability, other projects coming offline perhaps making equipment or software available or a there might be a periodic bulk purchase of software to buy down licensing costs. If it's a cost that for some unknown reason hits my department (usually because of poor budget planning on the behalf of the requesting party), then I typically leverage my own departments money to replace critical servers with new gear and then make the older (though still viable) equipment available for redistribution. If a department budgets for the cost of new gear then every penny they budgeted will be spent buying the best of what can be had for their purposes. A person can think their request is a quick and easy purchase because that's all they look at is their task. When you look at a corporations processes as a whole you have to take into account more detail than that of the narrowly focused request.
3. There is a lot of detail that can go into a simple request on the back end and depending upon the existing IT workload; can take a significant amount of time. If the project doesn't work, the blame isn't put on the requestor who might not have provided enough information or the vendor who insisted their app works on this version w/out issue. The blame for failed technology rides on IT.
4. Additional considerations include but are not limited to rights management, network connectivity, IP structure, existing technology and future capability, asset management, virus protection, product lifecycle, warranty requirements, test environments for new apps, test environments for old apps working with new apps...
5. And then there's triage. That is, dealing with much of what the hubbub is about. Trouble calls, helpdesk, end user critical issues. I'm not placing blame or being sarcastic about anything here. Often a whole day or week or even longer can be spent on putting out 'fires'. Issues that are critical and because of one reason or another take precedence over anything else that might be going on. That can skew a well thought out schedule.
There is more that goes into a project than everything above and at times there is less that goes into it all. It's really nice when something truly as simple as putting an SQL server online is something that I can get done soon after it's requested. I do make a point of getting "quick/simple" things done up front if I can, even if it stretches another timeline just a little because some things though small can have an immediate impact on a workflow. But those concessions are made when I understand all aspects of a project and can get the work done without jeopardizing existing tasks. That takes time up front. I don't just consider my personal interests in managing my IT Department but I think of everything that IT touches and consider myself as having ownership in that process.
*Asking for Cliff's notes already? Well, that's why you think your "very, very simple request to IT" should have been done in an hour when it was actually done in six weeks. Perhaps your IT Dept. isn't on the ball or just dropped the ball when it came to missing the reformat or mabye they just decided to sit back and laugh at the fact that you requested a reformat after an SQL install. Who knows. The fact of the matter is that there is a lot of important detail in even small IT decisions. It doesn't always take a lot to do a task, but often there are other tasks more important before it.
*Lest you think my reason for not getting your SQL server done is because I'm posting on ATOT; I wrote this up after hours and am finally putting it online.
Sheesh, amazing a company can even function with people like that...
I don't doubt that there are IT departments out there that earn their bad reputation. I just recognize that a lot of the bad reputation is unwarranted and that the ignorance in the mud slinging is more often from misinformation and inexperience than it is through an accurate understanding of facts
crystal makes a good point in reply to [/b]Martin[/b] in that a CD or box on the shelve is relatively inexpensive; that it's the licensing which costs. We get that a lot. Departments want to provision more software than they budgeted for and when they hit their license count they want the IT Dept. to suck up the cost or just turn a blind eye to a few 'extra' installs. Yeah, like they're going to pony up when it comes time to answer the auditors.
Svnla
Lifer
- Nov 10, 2003
- 17,986
- 1,388
- 126
I worked on both sides <IT and then Finance/Accounting, and Operations> and I have to say I seen enough morons on both sides.
Morons in IT: "my dial up modem at home is special, its speed is almost as fast as fast as a T1 line" and when in doubt, just reformat the hard drive and reinstall everything <that is that moron's solution on almost every IT's problems>.
Morons in other departments: we show them how to do things over and over but they can't remember or bother to make note. We ask them not to use the new install program because it was not ready but they did anyway so we have to spend many hours to repair and reinstall their systems.
Everyone in all departments have their own unique roles and duties. You can't say this department is better/more important/generate more revenue/etc. than others. Just do your job to the best of your ability and try to get along with everyone.
Morons in IT: "my dial up modem at home is special, its speed is almost as fast as fast as a T1 line" and when in doubt, just reformat the hard drive and reinstall everything <that is that moron's solution on almost every IT's problems>.
Morons in other departments: we show them how to do things over and over but they can't remember or bother to make note. We ask them not to use the new install program because it was not ready but they did anyway so we have to spend many hours to repair and reinstall their systems.
Everyone in all departments have their own unique roles and duties. You can't say this department is better/more important/generate more revenue/etc. than others. Just do your job to the best of your ability and try to get along with everyone.
Wow there is a lot of venting going on here. I think every department has its share of arrogant/cranky people. Try not to let it bother you. Focus on trying to make your office a better place to work instead of letting IT troll get to you. How is that for sunshine in my first post? By the way, I'm in the IT dept and I know the arrogance you are talking about. I have also witnessed the arrogance of other departments including engineering, accounting, security, facilities, contracts, legal.
CLIFFS:
People of all shapes, colors, races, education, sexes, ages, religions can be arrogant cranky son of a bishes. It is not just IT folks. Who is your sys admin? I'm gonna call him/her show them this post and have your account deleted. Then we will wait for your next post. I hope you were not posting this at work! Laugh you dork! It was meant to be funny.
CLIFFS:
People of all shapes, colors, races, education, sexes, ages, religions can be arrogant cranky son of a bishes. It is not just IT folks. Who is your sys admin? I'm gonna call him/her show them this post and have your account deleted. Then we will wait for your next post. I hope you were not posting this at work! Laugh you dork! It was meant to be funny.
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