A first step to Dialogue: We need eloquent conservative thought.

[Atreus21]

Here's a pretty good series on what conservatives believe.

Part 1:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLD6VChcWCE

 

[Jhhnn]

He's a relative outsider now, to be sure -- I'm just thinking of conservatism in terms of the general school of thought, not necessarily Republican ideology as it is circa 2017. Someone who embodies the classic conservative values (lower taxes, emphasis on free market) without the logical extremes that have corrupted the Republicans lately.

The world has changed. Half of American families pay no federal income tax. A fair % of those have subsidized lifestyles & the financial elite is pulling away from the rest of us at warp speed. Mere fact. It sounds peachy & all, but Conservative ideology doesn't account for reality.

 

[Commodus]

Lower taxes on the wealthy.... yep that's a conservative value that is repugnant on any level. Any person advocating for such have reprehensible morals.

Well, as someone who's left-leaning, I would hope that a classic conservative would want lower taxes for everyone, not just the wealthy (and this could still allow for higher tax rates for those upper brackets).

The issue, as I see it, is that modern Republicans aren't really small government so much as "screw everyone else, I got mine." It's about protecting representatives and their business friends over doing something that would help the whole country. It's so detached from classic, responsible conservatism that its origins are barely recognizable.

 

[Jhhnn]

Well, as someone who's left-leaning, I would hope that a classic conservative would want lower taxes for everyone, not just the wealthy (and this could still allow for higher tax rates for those upper brackets).

The issue, as I see it, is that modern Republicans aren't really small government so much as "screw everyone else, I got mine." It's about protecting representatives and their business friends over doing something that would help the whole country. It's so detached from classic, responsible conservatism that its origins are barely recognizable.

You have a very idealized view of classic conservatism. It never was responsible. It was always FYGM. It just didn't seem so obvious prior to the concentration of wealth & power we have today.

 

[Commodus]

You have a very idealized view of classic conservatism. It never was responsible. It was always FYGM. It just didn't seem so obvious prior to the concentration of wealth & power we have today.

I'm not sure I agree... or at least, I think conservatives should be striving toward that definition. What we forget is that many pre-Reagan conservatives weren't nearly so take-the-money-and-run as they are now. Eisenhower warned of the creeping military-industrial complex. Hell, as terrible a person as Nixon was, he still helped get the EPA off the ground. It is in fact possible for conservatives to put the greater good of their country above their personal gain -- it's just been so long since we saw the Republican party do it that it seems like a pipe dream.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

I'm not sure I agree... or at least, I think conservatives should be striving toward that definition. What we forget is that many pre-Reagan conservatives weren't nearly so take-the-money-and-run as they are now. Eisenhower warned of the creeping military-industrial complex. Hell, as terrible a person as Nixon was, he still helped get the EPA off the ground. It is in fact possible for conservatives to put the greater good of their country above their personal gain -- it's just been so long since we saw the Republican party do it that it seems like a pipe dream.

There aren't really many or perhaps none, who represent either Conservative or Liberal values as they were. Conservatives have become greedy first and the Left is about using division when it was inclusive, hollow shells like the Right.

Like I said before all good things come to an end.

 

[Jhhnn]

There aren't really many or perhaps none, who represent either Conservative or Liberal values as they were. Conservatives have become greedy first and the Left is about using division when it was inclusive, hollow shells like the Right.

Like I said before all good things come to an end.

Yeh, they're just as bad, at least in your head.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Yeh, they're just as bad, at least in your head.

They are different, not better. I saw your ideological elders, your superiors, regress into birds mimicking speech. Tear the nation apart and yell victory. That's what most are good for anyway.

 

[Majes]

People can look at the same set of facts and draw different conclusions.
That's currently something that most people on both sides don't understand. This was readily apparent in the "Muslim Ban" thread. This issue is exacerbated when the news is deliberately obfuscating facts, and there are websites that just completely make things up.

So while one side says "This isn't a Muslim ban because it doesn't ban all Muslims" and the other side says "Trump's motivation behind it can be effectively demonstrated as a desire to ban muslims" neither is wrong. So we just circle endlessly until one or both sides start name-calling.

I don't have the answer for this problem. I'm just frustrated that both sides view the other as idiots. There's a ton of dialogue going on but who in their right mind would actually listen to an idiot?

I consider myself a conservative, but there's no voice I'd trust to speak for me. I do my best to inform my own opinions. That's part of the reason I visit these boards.

I was originally supportive of the ban when i read through it. I tend to be a bit of an isolationist. I figured if there were people in these countries that were a threat then it was perfectly fine to put a temporary ban in place in order to rework the vetting process. I didn't see it as a Muslim ban, though I understand those arguments based on campaign rhetoric. However, I looked into the vetting process for Syrian refugees and it's pretty stringent so I don't really understand the need for this ban. I'm not going to join protests for this because as long as immigrants with green cards aren't being locked out I don't see anyone's rights being violated. On the other hand I've started to look into how I can help refugees.

 

[theeedude]

Multi-billion dollar Conservative think-tank industry can't in 7 years think of a better health care plan to replace Obamacare. Tells you all you need to know.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

"as immigrants with green cards aren't being locked out I don't see anyone's rights being violated."

From a Facebook friend:

"I see no reason my friend from Iran should have to choose between being by her father's death bed in Iran, and continuing to make six figures as a professor here."

I think it's our loss

Also, you support your point, so far, thoughtfully.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

Well, as someone who's left-leaning, I would hope that a classic conservative would want lower taxes for everyone, not just the wealthy (and this could still allow for higher tax rates for those upper brackets).

The issue, as I see it, is that modern Republicans aren't really small government so much as "screw everyone else, I got mine." It's about protecting representatives and their business friends over doing something that would help the whole country. It's so detached from classic, responsible conservatism that its origins are barely recognizable.

Considering the bottom 50% of the country doesn't pay federal income taxes (and are actually a negative on tax income at that), it's kinda hard to lower their taxes further. Can you not see how the middle and upper middle class is pissed off that a bunch of whiners are asking for more? Try paying into the system for once instead of taking from the system.

Piss off the rich (the few that are actually paying into the system) and see how that goes. Try asking France how that went.

 

[imported_tajmahal]

You have a very idealized view of classic conservatism. It never was responsible. It was always FYGM. It just didn't seem so obvious prior to the concentration of wealth & power we have today.

I just find it funny that a liberal/progressive/Democrat like Jhhnn with no honor, no honesty and a total lack of integrity feels as if they can speak for conservatives, but refuses to speak for themselves.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

"as immigrants with green cards aren't being locked out I don't see anyone's rights being violated."

From a Facebook friend:

"I see no reason my friend from Iran should have to choose between being by her father's death bed in Iran, and continuing to make six figures as a professor here."

I think it's our loss

Also, you support your point, so far, thoughtfully.

The ban is constructed with absolutely no consideration as to consequences. Doctors are cut off from patients, families harmed by a signature, an Iraqi general who fought with us who cannot visit his family here because he found he's a "terrorist" in the eyes of Trump or might as well be. Asinine and ill thought out or heartless policies by anyone isn't good. This ban is the worst Executive action I can think of going back to the internment of the Japanese.

 

[Atreus21]

Multi-billion dollar Conservative think-tank industry can't in 7 years think of a better health care plan to replace Obamacare. Tells you all you need to know.

Considering that Obamacare was a cure that was worse than the sickness, conservatives probably have a hard time selling the original sickness.

 

[bshole]

Considering the bottom 50% of the country doesn't pay federal income taxes (and are actually a negative on tax income at that), it's kinda hard to lower their taxes further. Can you not see how the middle and upper middle class is pissed off that a bunch of whiners are asking for more? Try paying into the system for once instead of taking from the system.

Piss off the rich (the few that are actually paying into the system) and see how that goes. Try asking France how that went.

I and many other middle class folks are ENRAGED at the systemic WAR that the upper class has prosecuted on the middle class. The modern "middle class" has the same buying power as the working poor had in the 60s. That did not happen overnight. It required that the rich remove the vote from the people via special interest money to politicians.

This is not even in dispute. We are now in a position where the top 0.1% owns as much as the bottom 90% FOR THE FIRST FUCKING TIME IN NEARLY A CENTURY, and here you are bitching about the crumbs that the poorest of the poor are getting. Unbelievable. How did the people who are shitting on YOU, get you to eat it with a smile and turn on those less fortunate than yourself? How did they get you to value THEIR welfare more than yours?

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

I and many other middle class folks are ENRAGED at the systemic WAR that the upper class has prosecuted on the middle class. The modern "middle class" has the same buying power as the working poor had in the 60s. That did not happen overnight. It required that the rich remove the vote from the people via special interest money to politicians.

This is not even in dispute. We are now in a position where the top 0.1% owns as much as the bottom 90% FOR THE FIRST FUCKING TIME IN NEARLY A CENTURY, and here you are bitching about the crumbs that the poorest of the poor are getting. Unbelievable.

Rage on, I agree. No one speaks for us. One side doesn't care about the less than rich and the other likes to climb a pedestal and pontificate about its virtues.

Sheeple indeed.

 

[ivwshane]

Considering that Obamacare was a cure that was worse than the sickness, conservatives probably have a hard time selling the original sickness.

Thanks for illustrating everyone's point. The right has their own set of alternative facts, you can't have a rational discussion if one side is irrational.

 

[piasabird]

Did Obama actually listen to any conservatives for the last 8 years? Hell No.

 

[ivwshane]

Did Obama actually listen to any conservatives for the last 8 years? Hell No.

Example two.

 

[theeedude]

Considering that Obamacare was a cure that was worse than the sickness, conservatives probably have a hard time selling the original sickness.

If the cure was really worse than the sickness, the original sickness would sell itself. The reality is that the whole conservative intellectual might of the country taken together can't in 7 years come up with a better solution than Obamacare they have been calling a disaster.
The only major health care change the conservative movement came up with since Nixon bet all our health on HMOs is Medicare prescription drug benefit that was never not paid for and is now causing prescription drug prices to explode.

 

[351Cleveland]

We need eloquent conservative thought.

Not for the sale of conservatives, but for the sake of engagement.

Let us remind ourselves that there is a language just as illiterate and worthless on the Left - postmodern gibberish.

We need somone to eloquently explain the meanings views of both sides in a common language.


Do we agree this would be a useful and good first step to dialogue?

I think the useful and first good step is to stop throwing insults around. Sadly, most on this forum are unable to do that, which is why I post so little. Its not worth the flames.

After that, I really don't need someone to speak for me. I can tell you my values and view points and explain why I hold them. You can label them however you want, but it is what I believe, not what someone told me I am because it fits a political profile. Been that way all my life.

 

[emperus]

People can look at the same set of facts and draw different conclusions.
That's currently something that most people on both sides don't understand. This was readily apparent in the "Muslim Ban" thread. This issue is exacerbated when the news is deliberately obfuscating facts, and there are websites that just completely make things up.

So while one side says "This isn't a Muslim ban because it doesn't ban all Muslims" and the other side says "Trump's motivation behind it can be effectively demonstrated as a desire to ban muslims" neither is wrong. So we just circle endlessly until one or both sides start name-calling.

I don't have the answer for this problem. I'm just frustrated that both sides view the other as idiots. There's a ton of dialogue going on but who in their right mind would actually listen to an idiot?

I consider myself a conservative, but there's no voice I'd trust to speak for me. I do my best to inform my own opinions. That's part of the reason I visit these boards.

I was originally supportive of the ban when i read through it. I tend to be a bit of an isolationist. I figured if there were people in these countries that were a threat then it was perfectly fine to put a temporary ban in place in order to rework the vetting process. I didn't see it as a Muslim ban, though I understand those arguments based on campaign rhetoric. However, I looked into the vetting process for Syrian refugees and it's pretty stringent so I don't really understand the need for this ban. I'm not going to join protests for this because as long as immigrants with green cards aren't being locked out I don't see anyone's rights being violated. On the other hand I've started to look into how I can help refugees.

I think by playing the false equivalency game as you do so well in this post, you give refuge and normalize the craziness of those on the right. You're argument is basically people shouldn't use their god given minds to decipher situations and should be slaves to the rhetoric that people use. This was a Muslim ban crafted to be legal.

You know it's not the crazies on the right that make me feel out country is fuxed. It's posts like yours above.

 

[agent00f]

Disagree. Buckley went to Yale and graduated with honors. That does not happen in the absence of a sharp intellect, it just doesn't. He was also a skilled orator. I would put him on the level of Hitchens.

He's skilled at the trappings of rhetoric, which is particularly impressive to the masses. This is a differing kind of thing to interesting intellectual ideas. Maybe you can provide examples of his original thoughts which might particularly impress smart people. Hint: they cite them in smart people publications.

 

[Jhhnn]

Try paying into the system for once instead of taking from the system.

It''s not for lack of trying but rather for lack of income. It's not like Lake Woebegon where all the children (jobs) are above average.

When the truth is told low income folks pay a lot in taxes, just not federal income taxes.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-an-abuse-of-tax-data/?utm_term=.ae23fc948350