A dismantling of one of the last bastions of climate-change deniers

[Paratus]

OMG!!!! Houston did not get into the 80's yesterday!!!!

I know!

I got 4 inches of rain however. Did you guys get much?

 

[Londo_Jowo]

I know!

I got 4 inches of rain however. Did you guys get much?

We got that much as well. More on the way this morning.

 

[dphantom]

cold here. 60s yesterday tho up to 80s tomorrow for one day before back into 60s. early fall.

 

[Paratus]

We got that much as well. More on the way this morning.

Yup it's thundering already and I've got another tenth of an inch.

We were going to take the day off and go to Glaveston with the kids before school starts. Looks like that will have to be tomorrow.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Yup it's thundering already and I've got another tenth of an inch.

We were going to take the day off and go to Glaveston with the kids before school starts. Looks like that will have to be tomorrow.

I hope the yard is dry enough to mow tomorrow morning so I can get it done before I head out to Indonesia next week. The long wait to bring my grandson over here will come to an end next month.

 

[Paratus]

I hope the yard is dry enough to mow tomorrow morning so I can get it done before I head out to Indonesia next week. The long wait to bring my grandson over here will come to an end next month.

Saturday looks better but there's still a 40% of thunder storms in the afternoon. Dang it.

Good luck getting your grandson. Is this an adoption?

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Saturday looks better but there's still a 40% of thunder storms in the afternoon. Dang it.

Good luck getting your grandson. Is this an adoption?

No, his immigration interview is Sept 8th. Sad that a child of a permanent resident alien has to wait 5 years to get a immigrant visa.

 

[Paratus]

No, his immigration interview is Sept 8th. Sad that a child of a permanent resident alien has to wait 5 years to get a immigrant visa.

Yikes! Again good luck!

 

[OverVolt]

Has my bastion been dismantled yet

 

[shira]

N
Ask someone to answer the following question as a fast as possible:

John's mother has three sons; Snap, Crackle and ?

Spoiler

The answer is John but most people say Pop

I thought "Pop," but I was also thinking that John's mother had a daughter named John.

:awe:

 

[Paratus]

I thought "Pop," but I was also thinking that John's mother had a daughter named John.

:awe:

Nice.

 

[Paratus]

Has my bastion been dismantled yet

What bastion is that.

 

[maluckey]

Snarky attitude...check!

And can someone please tell me what the plan is for the WORLD to drop the temperature.....and why that is good? WIll it cost more than 16 Trillion dollars to fix?

Agriultural studies show that increased temps will not lead to less overall global crop production by itself. Move to a new location and Bingo! More crops

They all talk about shifting locations, less disease, the benefits of more CO2, and different insect control strategy.

Never cared for beach-front property anyways, and find it hard to listen to whoever thinks they're correct and shouting down the other side. The true test of a scientific theory is debate. The test of a cult is that debate is not allowed. Richard Feynman would be ashamed of how the court of public opinion is steering the debate.........

M

 

[sandorski]

Snarky attitude...check!

And can someone please tell me what the plan is for the WORLD to drop the temperature.....and why that is good? WIll it cost more than 16 Trillion dollars to fix?

Agriultural studies show that increased temps will not lead to less overall global crop production by itself. Move to a new location and Bingo! More crops

They all talk about shifting locations, less disease, the benefits of more CO2, and different insect control strategy.

Never cared for beach-front property anyways, and find it hard to listen to whoever thinks they're correct and shouting down the other side. The true test of a scientific theory is debate. The test of a cult is that debate is not allowed. Richard Feynman would be ashamed of how the court of public opinion is steering the debate.........

M

:\

 

[Paratus]

Snarky attitude...check!

And can someone please tell me what the plan is for the WORLD to drop the temperature.....and why that is good? WIll it cost more than 16 Trillion dollars to fix?

Agriultural studies show that increased temps will not lead to less overall global crop production by itself. Move to a new location and Bingo! More crops

They all talk about shifting locations, less disease, the benefits of more CO2, and different insect control strategy.

Never cared for beach-front property anyways, and find it hard to listen to whoever thinks they're correct and shouting down the other side. The true test of a scientific theory is debate. The test of a cult is that debate is not allowed. Richard Feynman would be ashamed of how the court of public opinion is steering the debate.........

M

Moving crop land will cost significant money. I'd like to see these studies that show no loss in crop production. Just because Canada becomes warm enough to grow warm weather crops doesn't suddenly mean they get more sun. Northern latitudes will always have shorter growing seasons.

 

[werepossum]

Moving crop land will cost significant money. I'd like to see these studies that show no loss in crop production. Just because Canada becomes warm enough to grow warm weather crops doesn't suddenly mean they get more sun. Northern latitudes will always have shorter growing seasons.

We won't be moving crop land, we'll be adjusting crop selection. Modern crops come in many varieties from both selective breeding and genetic manipulation, with maximum yields in specific combinations of latitude, rainfall, and soil conditions. Legacy or heirloom crops grow well in a variety of climatic conditions since as "climate deniers" know, climate is naturally quite variable, but they have lower yields most years. (And probably much more important to big agribusiness, they aren't sterile so the farmer isn't forced to buy seed every year.)

A better question from your point of view might be when will the optimum cultivars begin exhibiting CO2 inhibition. Although a strong and necessary component of plant growth, plants breathe oxygen just as do we. At some level of concentration - this varies by species, cultivar, and other conditions - plants must expend excess energy to pump out CO2, since in high concentration it is toxic and how much a plant can use is dependent on many other factors which may be beyond our practical control. I have read some studies that place the inhibition line below 400 ppm for some species. It might well be nearer 1000 for most, but probably some plants (at least for some cultivars) will hit this limit at less than 500 ppm. At that point we have a brand new variable to consider and presumably designing an optimum cultivar becomes an order of magnitude more difficult.

 

[Moonbeam]

Moving crop land will cost significant money. I'd like to see these studies that show no loss in crop production. Just because Canada becomes warm enough to grow warm weather crops doesn't suddenly mean they get more sun. Northern latitudes will always have shorter growing seasons.

In Northern latitudes in the growing season the sun shines most of the day. I heard cabbage in Alaska are as big as cars.

edit: http://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt...-get-freakish-in-the-land-of-the-midnight-sun

Not that I think a massive climatic disruption is a good idea, mind you.

 

[maluckey]

In Northern latitudes in the growing season the sun shines most of the day. I heard cabbage in Alaska are as big as cars.

edit: http://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt...-get-freakish-in-the-land-of-the-midnight-sun

Not that I think a massive climatic disruption is a good idea, mind you.

Nor do I think that more heat is better. I do think that people spend an inordinate amount of time arguing about who's right, and almost no time at all about what the plan is. Who fucking cares if we're right (except ourselves)?

Since it is generally agreed that current events in motion won't stop in our lifetime, we owe it to the next generation to continue research into the potential effects (good and bad), forget who's right, and come up with a plan for success...and failure.

In this case, success means nothing changes, and trillions spent to fix it. Failure means adjusting cultivars, possibly shifting locations, re-education and trillions spent to fix it.

A bit of scenario planning and wargaming to find best and worst-case scenarios should start immediately. This can help planners arrive at a MinMax solution, so that the end-game is at the least, not terminal. Who knows? If we actually work towards a plan instead of who's right...we might find a way to continue on long enough to kill ourselves off some other way.

M

 

[werepossum]

Nor do I think that more heat is better. I do think that people spend an inordinate amount of time arguing about who's right, and almost no time at all about what the plan is. Who fucking cares if we're right (except ourselves)?

Since it is generally agreed that current events in motion won't stop in our lifetime, we owe it to the next generation to continue research into the potential effects (good and bad), forget who's right, and come up with a plan for success...and failure.

In this case, success means nothing changes, and trillions spent to fix it. Failure means adjusting cultivars, possibly shifting locations, re-education and trillions spent to fix it.

A bit of scenario planning and wargaming to find best and worst-case scenarios should start immediately. This can help planners arrive at a MinMax solution, so that the end-game is at the least, not terminal. Who knows? If we actually work towards a plan instead of who's right...we might find a way to continue on long enough to kill ourselves off some other way.

M

Agreed. I think there are many things we can do that make sense today. Reducing CO2 output makes sense regardless of whether we are convinced the sky is falling. More solar at the least will make fossil fuels last longer, and they make the most cost effective plastics too. More and better nuclear makes sense. Higher mandated insulation and efficiency makes sense. And basic research into things like efficiency, solar, waste heat capturing, etc. will always pay off in the long run.

 

[Jaskalas]

A better question from your point of view might be when will the optimum cultivars begin exhibiting CO2 inhibition. Although a strong and necessary component of plant growth, plants breathe oxygen just as do we. At some level of concentration - this varies by species, cultivar, and other conditions - plants must expend excess energy to pump out CO2, since in high concentration it is toxic and how much a plant can use is dependent on many other factors which may be beyond our practical control. I have read some studies that place the inhibition line below 400 ppm for some species. It might well be nearer 1000 for most, but probably some plants (at least for some cultivars) will hit this limit at less than 500 ppm. At that point we have a brand new variable to consider and presumably designing an optimum cultivar becomes an order of magnitude more difficult.

Are you saying some plants exhibit reduced growth at 400, and 500ppm CO2?

 

[feralkid]

Move to a new location and Bingo! More crops.

It doesn't really work like that.

 

[Paratus]

Agreed. I think there are many things we can do that make sense today. Reducing CO2 output makes sense regardless of whether we are convinced the sky is falling. More solar at the least will make fossil fuels last longer, and they make the most cost effective plastics too. More and better nuclear makes sense. Higher mandated insulation and efficiency makes sense. And basic research into things like efficiency, solar, waste heat capturing, etc. will always pay off in the long run.

:thumbsup:

 

[WHAMPOM]

In Northern latitudes in the growing season the sun shines most of the day. I heard cabbage in Alaska are as big as cars.

edit: http://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt...-get-freakish-in-the-land-of-the-midnight-sun

Not that I think a massive climatic disruption is a good idea, mind you.

Cold weather crops do great in 24 hour daylight, tomatos and corn get grown in a greenhouse to survive the temperatures inland from the coast. Alaska's Southern Pacific coast is wonderful (as a Northern rain forest) the other 99% not so much unless you like bog and perma-frost.

 

[werepossum]

Are you saying some plants exhibit reduced growth at 400, and 500ppm CO2?

Starting somewhere between 400 and 500, yes, if memory serves. But it depends on species, solar radiance, day length, and the availability of macro and micro nutrients. It's really complicated to say for sure because of so many variables (for instance, with aquatic plants it can even vary with which allelopathic compounds are present, both from vascular plants and from algae and cyanoalgae) but at some point, CO2 absolutely becomes an inhibitor. With too much CO2, plants suffocate just as any creatures using oxygen respiration. To avoid that, they use energy that would otherwise go into growth to remove excess CO2. Thus if CO2 gets too high for the other variables, we may have to go with a less sensitive cultivar than with the one providing the best combination of yield, taste and resistance.

Edit: I should add that in some circumstances high CO2 can also inhibit photosynthesis, resulting in a double whammy.

Edit too: I should also point out that most plants will exhibit better growth at high CO2 concentration, especially given adequate fertilizer.

 

[shira]

Snarky attitude...check!

And can someone please tell me what the plan is for the WORLD to drop the temperature.....and why that is good? WIll it cost more than 16 Trillion dollars to fix?

Agriultural studies show that increased temps will not lead to less overall global crop production by itself. Move to a new location and Bingo! More crops

They all talk about shifting locations, less disease, the benefits of more CO2, and different insect control strategy.

Never cared for beach-front property anyways, and find it hard to listen to whoever thinks they're correct and shouting down the other side. The true test of a scientific theory is debate. The test of a cult is that debate is not allowed. Richard Feynman would be ashamed of how the court of public opinion is steering the debate.........

M

"Moving to a new location" to keep the mean surface temperature the same won't result in the same crop yields because crops grown at more extreme latitudes (where you'd need to move to) won't receive the same duration of solar radiation as those formerly grown at lower latitudes.

http://www.livescience.com/51155-globally-plants-will-not-benefit-as-climate-warms.html

New research in the peer-reviewed journal PLOS Biology suggests plants in the north will remain limited by solar radiation — which is scarce at northern latitudes due to the shape of the Earth and its rotation, and is not likely to change as a result of climate — curbing any positive effects of warming and additional carbon dioxide. Furthermore, many plants in tropical regions will be unable to tolerate excessively high heat, especially if accompanied by drought.