A discussion on the conservative/liberal struggle through this country's history

[cwjerome]

The topic my or may not be troll but it's ignorant. I suppose I am a conservative because that's the way we've defined our labels today, but I have little in common with a conservative from 75 years ago, 150 years ago, or 225 years ago. I have very little in common with conservatives from other countries today. My conservatism has much less to do with "conserving" something and much more to do with a set of ideals. Besides, you will find a wide range of conservatives in the US right now with many different beliefs. So to use conservatives as a monolithic construct and compare it across time and chasms of cultural geography tells me the OP does not have an intelligent grasp of the subject and is part of the problem today of simplistic political understandings that are based on cliches.

 

[cave_dweller]

The topic my or may not be troll but it's ignorant. I suppose I am a conservative because that's the way we've defined our labels today, but I have little in common with a conservative from 75 years ago, 150 years ago, or 225 years ago. I have very little in common with conservatives from other countries today. My conservatism has much less to do with "conserving" something and much more to do with a set of ideals. Besides, you will find a wide range of conservatives in the US right now with many different beliefs. So to use conservatives as a monolithic construct and compare it across time and chasms of cultural geography tells me the OP does not have an intelligent grasp of the subject and is part of the problem today of simplistic political understandings that are based on cliches.

Liberal conservative my ass. Like everyone else you think that your own culture is right, proper and moral. Hence, they tend to use their own cultural standards and values to judge the behavior and beliefs of people from different cultures. This will also leads to thinking other peoples culture is strange and savage.

 

[Mxylplyx]

Why do you keep making everything about the girl?

Let me quote your previous response

Maybe you shouldn't allow teenage girls to go on camping trips unsupervised with teenage boys?

How many conservative societies, including our own from the past, have you seen that enforce sexual fidelity from the male side? Many strict conservative societies (the recent rape issue in India for example) go so far as to blame the female when she is raped for putting themselves in that position. Suggesting that "liberal influences" explain why Bristol Palin managed to get herself knocked up holds no water unless you are suggesting trying to regulate her sexual behavior through legal means, otherwise these instances are simply chalked up to normal human behavior. Liberalization and the freedom that comes from it can produce some adverse outcomes, but the alternative to it is oppression. Oddly enough the main tool used to mitigate this specific issue, birth control and contraception, many conservatives wish to make as difficult to access as possible.

 

[michal1980]

I agree but I think conservatives wish for here what they are terrified by over there because of a mere difference of religion. Conservatives strive for control to suppress their fears and liberals strive for education to eradicate them. We have, after all, only fear itself to fear. A conservative needs laws and punishment to maintain order, his order, whereas liberals need no control since their morals are internalized and self sustaining. Conservatives believe that man is evil and liberals know otherwise. This is why for conservatives, laws must be absolutes. When a conservative loses his morality he does so to indulge the criminal he has created within himself by suppression.

And yet liberals are always calling for more gun control laws and/or gun BANS.

The also work against large soda's, and smoking, etc etc etc.

your head needs to be checked.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

And yet liberals are always calling for more gun control laws and/or gun BANS.

The also work against large soda's, and smoking, etc etc etc.

your head needs to be checked.

Stole my reply pretty much. I'll have whatever cocktail he is having.

 

[nehalem256]

How many conservative societies, including our own from the past, have you seen that enforce sexual fidelity from the male side?

I was not aware that it was considered acceptable for men to commit adultery in the US.

EDIT: And a lot of this stems from an inherent difference between a man and a woman. A woman cannot be made to unknowingly raise another woman's child.

Many strict conservative societies (the recent rape issue in India for example) go so far as to blame the female when she is raped for putting themselves in that position.

If I walked into say South Chicago with a money sack and KKK T-shirt would I deserve any blame for getting my ass kicked and robbed?

Suggesting that "liberal influences" explain why Bristol Palin managed to get herself knocked up holds no water unless you are suggesting trying to regulate her sexual behavior through legal means, otherwise these instances are simply chalked up to normal human behavior.

Or through the parents not allowing unsupervised coed camping trips between teenagers.

Liberalization and the freedom that comes from it can produce some adverse outcomes, but the alternative to it is oppression.

I think you mean does produce. And I would consider forcing me to pay for the consequences of those freedoms to be oppression as well.

Oddly enough the main tool used to mitigate this specific issue, birth control and contraception, many conservatives wish to make as difficult to access as possible.

Difficult? Is that why I can walk into any number of conveniently located stores and purchase them.

But of course by "difficult to access" you mean I have to pay for them. In fact this was used as an argument by liberals for why BC pills should not be made OTC.

 

[Ausm]

You left out making divorce and having bastards acceptable.

Although I can see why you might want to forget that.

You shouldn't be so self deprecating...

 

[cwjerome]

Liberal conservative my ass. Like everyone else you think that your own culture is right, proper and moral. Hence, they tend to use their own cultural standards and values to judge the behavior and beliefs of people from different cultures. This will also leads to thinking other peoples culture is strange and savage.

I don't really know what you're talking about. I was talking about how the OP is ignorant in trying to make meaningful comparisons between conservatives across the globe and through time. Yes, I think the culture that I belong to has plenty of immoral and incorrect aspects, but let's try to stay on topic eh?

 

[Atreus21]

I'll end with the question, what would the full realization of conservative ideology look like?

I don't know. But I do know what the full realization (or attempted full realization) of "liberal" ideology looked like. While it lasted. After millions dead.

 

[cave_dweller]

Let me quote your previous response



How many conservative societies, including our own from the past, have you seen that enforce sexual fidelity from the male side? Many strict conservative societies (the recent rape issue in India for example) go so far as to blame the female when she is raped for putting themselves in that position. Suggesting that "liberal influences" explain why Bristol Palin managed to get herself knocked up holds no water unless you are suggesting trying to regulate her sexual behavior through legal means, otherwise these instances are simply chalked up to normal human behavior. Liberalization and the freedom that comes from it can produce some adverse outcomes, but the alternative to it is oppression. Oddly enough the main tool used to mitigate this specific issue, birth control and contraception, many conservatives wish to make as difficult to access as possible.

Be careful using India as a example as then you will be moving into multiculturalism. Kings wanted their heirs again, so they had multiple queens. Had a male sooner or later, then the same is followed for generation’s. That’s why a Rahul Gandhi leads Congress and not a Priyanka.

 

[cave_dweller]

I don't really know what you're talking about. I was talking about how the OP is ignorant in trying to make meaningful comparisons between conservatives across the globe and through time. Yes, I think the culture that I belong to has plenty of immoral and incorrect aspects, but let's try to stay on topic eh?

I should have said society rather than you. My fault but I am on topic. Your views are influenced by your culture. Correct or wrong?

 

[Mxylplyx]

I don't know. But I do know what the full realization (or attempted full realization) of "liberal" ideology looked like. While it lasted. After millions dead.

Social liberalism and totalitarianism have absolutely nothing in common

 

[cwjerome]

I should have said society rather than you. My fault but I am on topic. Your views are influenced by your culture. Correct or wrong?

Do I breath air and require water?

Nobody lives outside of culture, what's your point? Never mind, I don't really care. The important thing here is the OP has little to no rational training in political science or comparative historical analysis and it shows badly.

 

[Moonbeam]

Quote:
Originally Posted by michal1980
And yet liberals are always calling for more gun control laws and/or gun BANS.

The also work against large soda's, and smoking, etc etc etc.

your head needs to be checked.

Stole my reply pretty much. I'll have whatever cocktail he is having.

These are just examples of liberals voting internalized morality, that it is wrong to sell things to people who are mentally unable to control their self hate knowing full well they can't. Coke used to do even better when it was full of cocaine. But us liberals we just want to take the fun out of life by making it hard to kill yourself or use sheep for their wool and meat.

 

[monovillage]

Social liberalism and totalitarianism have absolutely nothing in common

Authoritarian liberalism.

BTW thanks for your Benghazi thread, over 2 months and 750+ posts!

 

[shadow9d9]

And how many teenagers do you think are responsible, intelligent, and well educated?

I think this is a big issue that liberals have where they seem to believe everyone is responsible, intelligent, etc. Liberal values may work okay for those people. But there are large numbers of people for whom they are a disaster.

And there is a difference between not being supervised all the time and essentially asking for trouble to happen (ie unsupervised camping trips with alcohol).

I don't think many adults are that responsible, intelligent, etc. I don't think there is as much of an age issue as a human issue.

 

[Juddog]

Interesting topic. For a truly balanced view, I recommend people on both sides of the isle watch this TED speech from Jonathan Haidt. It's mostly aimed towards liberals that have a set preconceived notion towards conservatives, but I suggest that people on both sides of the isle watch it.
http://www.ted.com/talks/jonathan_haidt_on_the_moral_mind.html

The gist of it is that people like to think that "the other side" is stupid and irrational, but the fact of the matter is that both sides contribute to society and share common moral values.

My personal take on it is that conservatives are important in that they keep the traditions and are keepers of knowledge, transferring these traditions and knowledge through the generations and keeping them alive. Without conservatives in the mix, liberals would go too far and spin society out of control until it became a state of anarchy.

On the other hand, liberals are important in that they stress the edges of what society is capable of, slowly expanding the boundries of what it means to be human. Without liberals, new ideas wouldn't proliferate and gain momentum in terms of societal standards, so they are necessary as well.

In the end, think of it as the properties of a good sword. A sword that maintains strength, yet is flexible, is the ideal hand to hand weapon. A sword that is too hard (brittle) is prone to shattering, and a sword that is too flexible doesn't have enough strength to do damage. It is only by having the proper mix in the steel that makes the sword that it becomes an ideal weapon. In this analogy, the liberals are the bendable property, and the conservatives are the hardening property.

In that manner, a nation state can fail if it's too bendable / soft, precisely because of the overbalance of liberalism, allowing them to be an easy target to be taken over by other nation states. If the nation state is too hard (ie brittle and filled with conservatives), it doesn't grow and the citizens are miserable (look at North Korea as a prime example, or Afghanistan). It is only by having a proper mix of liberal and conservative citizens that a nation can be truly strong.

In the end, walking a line of balance is always the most difficult path; it's easy to be completely on one side or the other, in other words a black and white mentality. The more difficult path of a balanced approach, however, yields much better returns in the end, as it does with most things in life (for example eating too much food makes you fat, eating too little makes you weak). To walk the line of balance requires one to put yourself in the shoes of both sides, and it is only thus that the balance of humanity is maintained.

 

[Atreus21]

Social liberalism and totalitarianism have absolutely nothing in common

Until they're allowed to operate without substantive opposition, I'd agree.