A discussion on the conservative/liberal struggle through this country's history

Mxylplyx

Diamond Member
Mar 21, 2007
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This might be considered a troll thread by some, but so be it.

I've been thinking about the meaning of conservative vs liberal, and how it applies to the history of our country, and societies around the world. The terms are not absolute in what value systems they represent, but instead describes an ideological position relative to what is considered the ideological middle in a society. For instance a liberal position in the US is allowing women into combat roles, whereas a liberal position in Saudia Arabia is allowing a woman to walk in public unescorted by a male relative.

With that said, is it unfair to say that the march of social progress over the years has always been a battle of conservatives trying to hold the reigns on the status quo vs liberals who are always trying to drag society forward? One might argue that conservatives only accomplishments throughout history is to merely provide a bit of measure and restraint to the march of liberalism, in that liberals often might want to move forward faster than society is willing to accept. Lets just give an example of liberal vs conservative debates over the centuries

The role of the church in government
Women s Rights
Civil Rights
Worker Rights
Social Programs (social security, medicare, unemployment, food assistance, etc)
Gay Rights

All those listed are ideological battles that have been lost or that conservatives have been constantly losing ground with over the years, and that has been the case throughout all of the western world.

Now there also many examples around the world where conservative ideology has successfully held the line against liberal influences, and even reversed liberalization in many instances.

Saudia Arabia
Yemen
Iran
Pakistan
India
Iraq

Obviously not shining beacons of the world. India might be an odd choice in that list, but many of their social constructs are extremely conservative.

So my ultimate point is...what role do conservatives feel they play in society? Is it to constantly temper the liberalization of society, or possibly reverse it? Many battles won by liberal movements in the past would be considered unthinkable to reverse by even the staunchest conservatives today. My theory is that conservative ideology is a refuge for the segment of society that is afraid of bold change, with many of those vested in the status quo. Perhaps they have a financial stake in the status quo, or a large measure of their influence is rooted in maintaining the status quo. A great model of what I believe would be the full realization of liberalization in society would be the fictional Star Trek universe. No money, no hunger, and no rich and poor. A society that transcends material want and basic need and collectively aspires for something higher. I'll end with the question, what would the full realization of conservative ideology look like?
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
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I think there is an underlying issue in the premise of this argument. Conservatives within a theocratic society are much much further to the right of conservatives within this country. Conservatives within this country still fall on the liberal side of the scale. Both of the major parties fall on this side of the scale.
 

Gunslinger08

Lifer
Nov 18, 2001
13,234
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I think that attempting to generalize political ideologies across State boundaries is a fallacy - especially comparing first world democracies/republics to theocracies.
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
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The role of the church in government
Women s Rights
Civil Rights
Worker Rights
Social Programs (social security, medicare, unemployment, food assistance, etc)
Gay Rights

You left out making divorce and having bastards acceptable.

Although I can see why you might want to forget that.
 

sm625

Diamond Member
May 6, 2011
8,172
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The problem is that if you take a random sample of x amount of people and ask them to write a 100 word essay on what is meant by the terms "liberal" and "conservative" you will find that 50% are incapable of even writing anything, and the remaining 50% will reach no concensus. But if you go with the broadest and most generalized definition, you find that 80% of people will identify with it. And yet the closer you get to the centers of power, the more confused and obfuscated even just the language becomes. That is no accident. It is in fact intentional and is actually the source of the vast majority of conflict.
 

Mxylplyx

Diamond Member
Mar 21, 2007
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A made the point towards the beginning that conservative vs liberal is always relative to the place and/or time. Very few conservatives would now call for the right of women to vote be taken away, but that very debate was an ideological battleground for conservative vs liberal in the past.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
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You left out making divorce and having bastards acceptable.

Although I can see why you might want to forget that.

And abortions by the dozens of millions. But it's not like liberals really miss all those black babies anyway.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,688
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I think there is an underlying issue in the premise of this argument. Conservatives within a theocratic society are much much further to the right of conservatives within this country. Conservatives within this country still fall on the liberal side of the scale. Both of the major parties fall on this side of the scale.

I agree but I think conservatives wish for here what they are terrified by over there because of a mere difference of religion. Conservatives strive for control to suppress their fears and liberals strive for education to eradicate them. We have, after all, only fear itself to fear. A conservative needs laws and punishment to maintain order, his order, whereas liberals need no control since their morals are internalized and self sustaining. Conservatives believe that man is evil and liberals know otherwise. This is why for conservatives, laws must be absolutes. When a conservative loses his morality he does so to indulge the criminal he has created within himself by suppression.
 

Mxylplyx

Diamond Member
Mar 21, 2007
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You left out making divorce and having bastards acceptable.

Although I can see why you might want to forget that.

There is a difference between something being acceptable and celebrated. Bristol Palin's bastard child demonstrates perfectly that despite your supposed social convictions, these things happen. The question is what to do with once the situation does arise. Should Bristol be forced to marry the father of her baby, even if it was the product of a one night stand or a rape? Many societies around the world would insist on just that.
 

Mxylplyx

Diamond Member
Mar 21, 2007
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I agree but I think conservatives wish for here what they are terrified by over there because of a mere difference of religion. Conservatives strive for control to suppress their fears and liberals strive for education to eradicate them. We have, after all, only fear itself to fear. A conservative needs laws and punishment to maintain order, his order, whereas liberals need no control since their morals are internalized and self sustaining. Conservatives believe that man is evil and liberals know otherwise. This is why for conservatives, laws must be absolutes. When a conservative loses his morality he does so to indulge the criminal he has created within himself by suppression.

I used to believe you are crazy, but then again I used to be a staunch neocon conservative. I got banned many years ago for calling you out. Now I see that you are actually brilliant.
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
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A great model of what I believe would be the full realization of liberalization in society would be the fictional Star Trek universe. No money, no hunger, and no rich and poor. A society that transcends material want and basic need and collectively aspires for something higher.

So complete and utter fantasy. The realization of liberalism requires humans to not be human.

I'll end with the question, what would the full realization of conservative ideology look like?

A world populated with moral hard-working people where immorality was not tolerated and/or rewarded by society.
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
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There is a difference between something being acceptable and celebrated. Bristol Palin's bastard child demonstrates perfectly that despite your supposed social convictions, these things happen. The question is what to do with once the situation does arise.

Bristol Palin demonstrates that liberalism has permeated even so called "conservative" enclaves.

Maybe you shouldn't allow teenage girls to go on camping trips unsupervised with teenage boys?

In another time we understood things like that.

Should Bristol be forced to marry the father of her baby, even if it was the product of a one night stand or a rape? Many societies around the world would insist on just that.

Why are you wording it like Bristol is the only one being forced to marry? Isn't normally the man who has the shotgun trained on him in such a wedding?
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
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A made the point towards the beginning that conservative vs liberal is always relative to the place and/or time. Very few conservatives would now call for the right of women to vote be taken away, but that very debate was an ideological battleground for conservative vs liberal in the past.

Sure it is and why the current crop of liberals in this country salivating over the death of the republican party is amusing. Every step forward the democrat party takes will be the line in the sand for a liberal or moderate to move right.

But when discussing politics on the world scale. It is helpful to understand the difference between right and left in the United States is pretty small and both sit near each other on the political scale.
 

Mxylplyx

Diamond Member
Mar 21, 2007
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So complete and utter fantasy. The realization of liberalism requires humans to not be human.

Maybe you just don't have enough faith in what humans are capable of? Humans lived in caves thousands of years ago and were not free to focus on anything but basic subsistence. Technology and social progress has freed our minds to accomplish great things. With greater technology and greater social progress, why can we not continue to advance

A world populated with moral hard-working people where immorality was not tolerated and/or rewarded by society.

Do tell what you would do with these people that you would consider immoral in your great society? In many societies today even having this debate would be considered immoral.
 

Mxylplyx

Diamond Member
Mar 21, 2007
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Bristol Palin demonstrates that liberalism has permeated even so called "conservative" enclaves.

Maybe you shouldn't allow teenage girls to go on camping trips unsupervised with teenage boys?

In another time we understood things like that.

So what are you suggesting, make a law regulating the behavior of teenage girls?
Saudia Arabia takes it a step further and doesn't allow females to leave the house unescorted by a male relative. Shouldn't we just do that to mostly eliminate unwanted pregnancies?
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
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So what are you suggesting, make a law regulating the behavior of teenage girls?
Saudia Arabia takes it a step further and doesn't allow females to leave the house unescorted by a male relative. Shouldn't we just do that to mostly eliminate unwanted pregnancies?

I am saying that allowing teenage boys and girls to hang out unsupervised in the woods (especially with alcohol being present) is asking for trouble.

Why do you keep making everything about the girl?
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
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Maybe you just don't have enough faith in what humans are capable of? Humans lived in caves thousands of years ago and were not free to focus on anything but basic subsistence. Technology and social progress has freed our minds to accomplish great things. With greater technology and greater social progress, why can we not continue to advance

People have progressed largely through selfishness which is an innate human trait. You are imagine a future in which people are not selfish.

Do tell what you would do with these people that you would consider immoral in your great society? In many societies today even having this debate would be considered immoral.

Immorality is making life choices that make you a charity case.
 

shadow9d9

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2004
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I am saying that allowing teenage boys and girls to hang out unsupervised in the woods (especially with alcohol being present) is asking for trouble.

Why do you keep making everything about the girl?

You can never supervise anyone all of the time. Education is the key. I was allowed to lock the door and be left alone at home with my girlfriend when I was 15-16... With responsible, intelligent, and educated children, it shouldn't be a big deal at all.
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
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Clumps of cells without brain matter are not "babies." Keep on dreaming!

You mean clumps of cells without brain matter are not "babies" unless a pregnant teenager says so and then we need to shower her with government benefits to protect her baby.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,688
6,737
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I used to believe you are crazy, but then again I used to be a staunch neocon conservative. I got banned many years ago for calling you out. Now I see that you are actually brilliant.

I am sorry you got banned. I am far from brilliant and my post was painted far more in black and white than it would be if I were trying to build a better case. Also I gave little to nothing to prove anything I said, just a quick opinion. Thank you for the complement.
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
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You can never supervise anyone all of the time. Education is the key. I was allowed to lock the door and be left alone at home with my girlfriend when I was 15-16... With responsible, intelligent, and educated children, it shouldn't be a big deal at all.

And how many teenagers do you think are responsible, intelligent, and well educated?

I think this is a big issue that liberals have where they seem to believe everyone is responsible, intelligent, etc. Liberal values may work okay for those people. But there are large numbers of people for whom they are a disaster.

And there is a difference between not being supervised all the time and essentially asking for trouble to happen (ie unsupervised camping trips with alcohol).