A different kind of science denial

[Darwin333]

I just don't think it's as simple as that. The 'scientific method' didn't just appear one day, as a sudden revelation. Indeed it seems more a retrospective rationalisation of what people had been doing for some time without consciously deciding on it.

To start thinking in a 'scientific' way requires all kinds of intellectual and physical preconditions. Religion was one of the things that created those conditions.

I can't really sustain an argument over it because I've forgotten all the things I read about it in the past (like climbing a ladder that then falls over leaving you wondering how you got here, I just know I at some point decided I didn't agree with what you say here, even if I don't quite know why any more).

Besides, while I know I'm not being at all convincing, it doesn't seem that important an issue given where we are now. It's a matter for historians, really.

For any and all of religions help in advancing science it has done far worse in holding it back. Take Islam for example, at one point they were the absolute pinnacle of scientific discovery during their golden age. Then the religion changed and after that the scientific advances made by Islamic people literally fell off a cliff. We are talking billions upon billions of people taken completely out of the realm of science around the 13th century and with very few exceptions they have yet to recover. It has to be among the largest travesties in scientific advancement in our history. Muslims make up almost a quarter of the global population and yet have earned only 1.4% of Nobel prizes. It is impossible to even imagine the number of Newton's, Einstein's, and Tesla's (Nikoli not Musk) that were taken out of the scientific pool because of religion.

So yes, you can show many scientific discoveries that were helped by religion but how many geniuses and truly great scientific and mathematical minds were kept out of their respective fields because of religion? Obviously that is a number that is impossible to prove but one can only fathom the truly greats we have lost and that is just one example.

 

[Darwin333]

"Yeh, but we could go to Mars!" is a serious diversion from the reality of what's happening. It gets 'em every time. Dubya said the same thing back in 2004. Meanwhile, Trump cuts funding for real space science but keeps on studying luxury modes of transportation-

https://www.space.com/39674-trump-nasa-budget-funds-supersonic-experimental-plane.html

Who's being served?

I was talking about Musk, I am on record many many times saying that at the very least NASA's budget should be doubled. If you ask me what my favorite NASA program is I say all of them, fund the everliving shit out of them. They currently get 1/2 a penny of every tax dollar, a clean doubling would give them an entire penny. Hell I am for giving them an entire nickel!

I still think that two of the greatest tragedies is that we have given up the leadership in particle science and we can't even get astronauts to the space station that we largely funded. Thankfully it looks like a private company is going to solve the latter problem for us much cheaper than we will but no private company is going to complete the Superconducting Super Collider which would have been over 3 times more powerful than the collider at CERN. Most if not all of the tunnel for it was dug and still exists in Somewhere, Texas. It is my dream to buy it for my very own batcave one day, I think something like 15 miles of tunnel was dug already so I could have a mile of pot grow and still have 14 miles to do with as I please!

 

[hal2kilo]

I was talking about Musk, I am on record many many times saying that at the very least NASA's budget should be doubled. If you ask me what my favorite NASA program is I say all of them, fund the everliving shit out of them. They currently get 1/2 a penny of every tax dollar, a clean doubling would give them an entire penny. Hell I am for giving them an entire nickel!

I still think that two of the greatest tragedies is that we have given up the leadership in particle science and we can't even get astronauts to the space station that we largely funded. Thankfully it looks like a private company is going to solve the latter problem for us much cheaper than we will but no private company is going to complete the Superconducting Super Collider which would have been over 3 times more powerful than the collider at CERN. Most if not all of the tunnel for it was dug and still exists in Somewhere, Texas. It is my dream to buy it for my very own batcave one day, I think something like 15 miles of tunnel was dug already so I could have a mile of pot grow and still have 14 miles to do with as I please!

Don't necessarily agree about NASA budget but the bolded is really an embarrassment.

 

[realibrad]

For any and all of religions help in advancing science it has done far worse in holding it back. Take Islam for example, at one point they were the absolute pinnacle of scientific discovery during their golden age. Then the religion changed and after that the scientific advances made by Islamic people literally fell off a cliff. We are talking billions upon billions of people taken completely out of the realm of science around the 13th century and with very few exceptions they have yet to recover. It has to be among the largest travesties in scientific advancement in our history. Muslims make up almost a quarter of the global population and yet have earned only 1.4% of Nobel prizes. It is impossible to even imagine the number of Newton's, Einstein's, and Tesla's (Nikoli not Musk) that were taken out of the scientific pool because of religion.

So yes, you can show many scientific discoveries that were helped by religion but how many geniuses and truly great scientific and mathematical minds were kept out of their respective fields because of religion? Obviously that is a number that is impossible to prove but one can only fathom the truly greats we have lost and that is just one example.

Anyone that tries to say religion was a net positive for science is wrong. If they say that science has promoted it in some areas, that is true. I think the confusion is that saying science has promoted science is misunderstood as religion was a good for science overall.

 

[Jhhnn]

The day will come when climate change denialists will need to make excuses for themselves & lack of data will be one of them. I mean, who could have known w/o the data, right?

So why don't we get the data? First off because they really don't want to know & because other things like tax cuts at the top & luxury air travel are more important.

 

[Darwin333]

Don't necessarily agree about NASA budget but the bolded is really an embarrassment.

Why not? They get an absurdly small amount of the budget as it is and look at everything they do. Imagine how much more advanced we would be if we flipped the defense budget and the science budget.

And yes, we were leaders in particle physics since friggen WWII and now we will probably never lead in it again. Not to mention that we canceled the Superconducting Super Collider after already spending $2B on it and I can't stress this enough, its planned energy was 40Tev (20Tev per proton) versus CERN's 13 Tev (6.5Tev per proton). I doubt we will see a collider with that kind of power in our lifetimes now that we only give 1/4 of a shit about science, if even that much.

 

[pmv]

For any and all of religions help in advancing science it has done far worse in holding it back. Take Islam for example, at one point they were the absolute pinnacle of scientific discovery during their golden age. Then the religion changed and after that the scientific advances made by Islamic people literally fell off a cliff. We are talking billions upon billions of people taken completely out of the realm of science around the 13th century and with very few exceptions they have yet to recover. It has to be among the largest travesties in scientific advancement in our history. Muslims make up almost a quarter of the global population and yet have earned only 1.4% of Nobel prizes. It is impossible to even imagine the number of Newton's, Einstein's, and Tesla's (Nikoli not Musk) that were taken out of the scientific pool because of religion.

So yes, you can show many scientific discoveries that were helped by religion but how many geniuses and truly great scientific and mathematical minds were kept out of their respective fields because of religion? Obviously that is a number that is impossible to prove but one can only fathom the truly greats we have lost and that is just one example.

I'm unconvinced that the intellectual and cultural decline of the Islamic world was purely down to some internallly-driven change in the religion. There was also the little matter of parts of the Islamic world being devastated by the Mongols (I'm half inclined to think Iraq's current state can still be partly blamed on the Mongols, it's not all Dubya's fault), plus there's the rise of Europe and later European colonialism.

But I wouldn't disagree that love of reason and knowledge on the one hand, and religion on the other, have increasingly tended to go their separate ways in more recent times. I'm just arguing against the implication that 'boy, our ancestors were all morons to believe all that crap'. Science is part of intellectual life, the same stream that historically gave us religion, and there are continuities there as well as divergences.