JohnnyGage
Senior member
The Hague, the Hague oh noes! Here comes the Hague....
I think even Holder tells the Hague to stick it.
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A day of reconing for Bush's Torture lawyers.
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The Hague, the Hague oh noes! Here comes the Hague....
I think even Holder tells the Hague to stick it.
Dear Sir, you are a known idiot. You constantly post things only a fool could believe. It is important, therefore, that you never set out on your own to postulate what you see as alternatives. You should devote your time to acquiring some sense before you suggest ideas to others. You should really change your name to FearlessAboutBeingStupid.
The next time you want to suggest what an alternative to torture might be I think it should be you jump out a window. There is an alternative that would make some real sense. It would cure your terror the terrorists will get you and free us up from another nut case.
P: No. Bush was and is a highly moral man who was charged with the protection of the country and like any moral man faced any number of dilemmas in doing so.
M: Yes, we are all moral men in our own opinion. Nobody says I am an asshole and I want to do evil.
P: He would have preferred to be a grown up frat boy but was turned into a more mature and introspective gentleman through his mid-life introduction to and subsequent marriage to Laura Bush, a greater and more steadying influence on his world view than is generally acknowledged. We should all be so lucky.
M: I would not disagree with this theme.
P: He did not want to be a tough guy, far from it, but the circumstances of his time in office forced him to confront the evil and brutality of the world early on. That he chose to confront such a condition directly rather than seeking accommodation is a tribute to his character and we should never accept any less of those we choose to be our national leaders. We have yet to see the current President demonstrate such insight and we now take on the risk that he will only learn his hard lesson in a way that will cost us lives.
M: His choices were exactly those of the Europeans the Americans stopped in their tracks by demanding trials rather than executions. He was not up to earlier Americans in moral vision. He responded at a much lower level of morality. Doesn't matter how difficult it was, he failed.
P: I laugh at the intimation that the decision to use enhanced interrogation was taken lightly or without great consideration of morality and legality. All of that deliberation can be found in easily available public records. Read them rather than the blogs for insight.
M: It doesn't matter how deep the deliberation, the decision was wrong.
P: I challenge you to put yourself in the position of making such choices where the lives of thousands, if not millions, of American are at stake on 9/11 and the subsequent months and years as the threat is more fully understood after years of inattention.
M: I can't imagine what I would do but I know where my instincts lie. I would have turned to the law to bring criminals to trial. I would hope I have the courage to take the high road, the road that earlier men took to greatness. But I am a nobody. Who can say.
P: Out of intellectual curiosity I do take some time to try to understand the perspective of men and women choosing the course of violence, anarchy and the tempting salvation from despair or the exultation which martyrdom represents. In the end, though, it doesn't really matter, for such people have always been manipulated into deadly action by more cynical players with more self serving goals. They are the true cowards. And it is the responsibility of responsible leaders in the U.S. to protect us from their intents.
M: Doubtless they are cowards too. But it is not a matter of responsibility to protect, it is a matter of the right way to truly protect who we are as Americans and not just our lives. If you practice terrorism against terrorists it does not matter in the slights who wins.
P: I am kind of a results based guy. Bush and Cheney did their best to protect the country in a time of threat and under circumstances of inadequate intelligence and thus great uncertainty. They have been unfairly vilified, considering how successful they were in this task. Imagine the level of demonification they would have faced should their efforts been proved inadequate and the U.S. were subjected to more attacks at the level of 9/11?
M: I totally reject the ends justify the means approach. I am absolute in my moralism. Torturing other people is evil at all times and for any reason forever.
P: The focus shifted to overseas locations, the battles were fought on foreign land rather than here and you now have very little fear of a future attack here. That may be a misplaced confidence as enemies still exist and the systems that spawn them are still active. You should pray that an appeasing leadership does not overcome the efforts that were expended in the recent past. History shows that appeasement and the lack of a reality based world view has resulted in war; we may be forced to learn this harsh lesson again.
M: We have much more fear then we ever had before because we have increased the hatred directed at us immeasurably. We are a wide open target. The only way to sanctuary for the vulnerable is to be loved and deserving of that love. People rarely kill their best friends, no?
M: Yes, we are all moral men in our own opinion. Nobody says I am an asshole and I want to do evil.
P: He would have preferred to be a grown up frat boy but was turned into a more mature and introspective gentleman through his mid-life introduction to and subsequent marriage to Laura Bush, a greater and more steadying influence on his world view than is generally acknowledged. We should all be so lucky.
M: I would not disagree with this theme.
P: He did not want to be a tough guy, far from it, but the circumstances of his time in office forced him to confront the evil and brutality of the world early on. That he chose to confront such a condition directly rather than seeking accommodation is a tribute to his character and we should never accept any less of those we choose to be our national leaders. We have yet to see the current President demonstrate such insight and we now take on the risk that he will only learn his hard lesson in a way that will cost us lives.
M: His choices were exactly those of the Europeans the Americans stopped in their tracks by demanding trials rather than executions. He was not up to earlier Americans in moral vision. He responded at a much lower level of morality. Doesn't matter how difficult it was, he failed.
P: I laugh at the intimation that the decision to use enhanced interrogation was taken lightly or without great consideration of morality and legality. All of that deliberation can be found in easily available public records. Read them rather than the blogs for insight.
M: It doesn't matter how deep the deliberation, the decision was wrong.
P: I challenge you to put yourself in the position of making such choices where the lives of thousands, if not millions, of American are at stake on 9/11 and the subsequent months and years as the threat is more fully understood after years of inattention.
M: I can't imagine what I would do but I know where my instincts lie. I would have turned to the law to bring criminals to trial. I would hope I have the courage to take the high road, the road that earlier men took to greatness. But I am a nobody. Who can say.
P: Out of intellectual curiosity I do take some time to try to understand the perspective of men and women choosing the course of violence, anarchy and the tempting salvation from despair or the exultation which martyrdom represents. In the end, though, it doesn't really matter, for such people have always been manipulated into deadly action by more cynical players with more self serving goals. They are the true cowards. And it is the responsibility of responsible leaders in the U.S. to protect us from their intents.
M: Doubtless they are cowards too. But it is not a matter of responsibility to protect, it is a matter of the right way to truly protect who we are as Americans and not just our lives. If you practice terrorism against terrorists it does not matter in the slights who wins.
P: I am kind of a results based guy. Bush and Cheney did their best to protect the country in a time of threat and under circumstances of inadequate intelligence and thus great uncertainty. They have been unfairly vilified, considering how successful they were in this task. Imagine the level of demonification they would have faced should their efforts been proved inadequate and the U.S. were subjected to more attacks at the level of 9/11?
M: I totally reject the ends justify the means approach. I am absolute in my moralism. Torturing other people is evil at all times and for any reason forever.
P: The focus shifted to overseas locations, the battles were fought on foreign land rather than here and you now have very little fear of a future attack here. That may be a misplaced confidence as enemies still exist and the systems that spawn them are still active. You should pray that an appeasing leadership does not overcome the efforts that were expended in the recent past. History shows that appeasement and the lack of a reality based world view has resulted in war; we may be forced to learn this harsh lesson again.
M: We have much more fear then we ever had before because we have increased the hatred directed at us immeasurably. We are a wide open target. The only way to sanctuary for the vulnerable is to be loved and deserving of that love. People rarely kill their best friends, no?
It is just my opinion. It just gives PJ another perspective to factor as he choses. I have to come over to his side a bit that Bush is not a monster because of the corrective in his post, but I still think Bush was wrong and I gave my reasons. Now PJ can consider what I said for what it might be worth, if anything. A hive mind is better than a single one, is many ways.
heyheybooboo
Diamond Member
umbrella39
Lifer
Why is it always black and white for you assholes? Again, GTFU.
Fear No Evil
Diamond Member
Right. People who think we should treat terrorists like terrorists are assholes. Terrorists should be treated with respect. Why not treat ME with the same respect you think we should treat people who kill innocent people? This is the American left today. Sarah Palin is a threat, Osama Bin Laden is a respected member of society.
umbrella39
Lifer
..and you still continue to act like a child still scribbling with crayons that anyone doesn't subscribe to your brand how to deal with things wants to shake hands and kiss their feet :roll: So again, GTFU
Fear No Evil
Diamond Member
What should we do to them? I realize that the left thinks Americans are stupid, but maybe you could dumb it down for us? Would we call them assholes and children? Apparently thats how you handle people who take the extreme position that we should treat terrorists badly? Or would calling them assholes and children be too extreme for them?
TastesLikeChicken
Lifer
Still fantasizing about someone, anyone, in the Bush admin being put on trial for "torture," LL?
Keep stomping your feet about it if you must, but it's a dead-end. You won't see it happen because no judge in the US, nor anyone in the Obama admin, is going to make such an unpopular move.
Keep stomping your feet about it if you must, but it's a dead-end. You won't see it happen because no judge in the US, nor anyone in the Obama admin, is going to make such an unpopular move.
shira
Diamond Member
And you claim that it is a serious position to argue that those who opppose torturing even those we strongly believe are terrorists are advocating that we surrender to terrorism? I am one of those who unconditionally opposes torture and you seriously think that it is MY belief that the only credible alternative to torture is surrender?
You are a troll plain and simple. If you can't see it, that's consistent with the intellectual weight of your posts.
FNE: What should we do to them? I realize that the left thinks Americans are stupid, but maybe you could dumb it down for us? Would we call them assholes and children? Apparently thats how you handle people who take the extreme position that we should treat terrorists badly? Or would calling them assholes and children be too extreme for them?
M: Nobody would of course listen to me, but I would fight fire with fire. I would have set up an oasis in some desert over there and hired the finest prostitutes in the world. This I would have broadcast all over the Arab world as the 1000 virgin reward for anybody who turns in to law enforcement Taliban and Al Quaeda leadership. I would work on the logic of having 1000 here and now instead of dying for a mere 72.
M: Nobody would of course listen to me, but I would fight fire with fire. I would have set up an oasis in some desert over there and hired the finest prostitutes in the world. This I would have broadcast all over the Arab world as the 1000 virgin reward for anybody who turns in to law enforcement Taliban and Al Quaeda leadership. I would work on the logic of having 1000 here and now instead of dying for a mere 72.
PJABBER
Diamond Member
Not a bad idea in principle, but prostitutes are not virginal and that may be problematic.
In a way, though, you have hit on a real problem in the ME and an important factor in the recruitment of terrorists in the Middle East.
No, it is not Zionism, it is not the U.S. invading Iraq or even the call to the faithful by Muhammad's spiritual descendants. It is the lack of marriage opportunity in the Middle East.
Financial independence and marriage remain the mark of manhood and social standing in the Middle East, yet it is increasingly difficult to attain. In a part of the world where 60 percent of the population is under 25, this is a social time bomb.
The Wedding Shortage
The Economic Imperatives of Marriage: Emerging Practices and Identities Among Youth in the Middle East
For the most part, U.S. and European policymakers have ignored this marriage gap. And yet, it is one of the decisive trends shaping the region. "Those youths in the streets of Beirut are not just fighting for political change," says Mazen Younes. "They are asking about their own future."
So, forget about the hooker plan and come up with a plan for economic viability in the region that will allow people there to marry at an early enough age that they can get their groove on when the groove is worth getting on and you will see a marked reduction in social unrest... and the recruitment of men seeking those virgins they cannot get in the real world.
This next link from a funny lady is OT, even Westerners have a hard time getting married in the ME, albeit for other reasons -
Love, Sex and Marriage in the Middle East
PJABBER
Diamond Member
Good thought, Moon.
One is not truly alive unless one is peeking over the top of whatever little box they might find themselves in and scoping out the scenery. Myself, I like to jump in and out of my little box to get some mental exercise. As a result, I am pumped like Arnie, figuratively speaking...
I also support the considered use of simile, metaphor, personification, synecdoche and metonymy in the hope of an improvement in the quality of commentary at P&N. Sadly, so many of the comments I read reflect the state of schooling and the faults of a liberally biased education.
Lemon law
Lifer
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Yes, I still think its going to happen sooner or later, what is needed is more facts and proof, and if nothing else, GWB&co has exhibited rare competency in hiding the paper trail. What is needed now is one lower level rat to spill the beans, and real progress can be made in going from we know they broke the law to step by step how they broke the law needed by a court of law to proceed to step by step beyond a shadow of a doubt certainty.
The other thing to note is that the American people and this forum are rapidly growing to come into the realization that GWB&co do need to be punished for their crimes. Its been a sea change in attitude between now and a year ago.
And as the author of the question asks, what can be done if a foreign entity beats the US to the punch and indicts GWB&co torture officials?
Because the USA must either turn them over for trial or withdraw from the Geneva convention. Not an easy dilemma.
Lemon law
Lifer
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I do not disagree with tab3076 in any way, but simply wish to point out a Presidential pardon carries zero weight internationally.
Sooner or later we must cease to view our executive branch as God even if we have the military power to back it.
If GWB&co are not punished, some future US president will inevitably establish the precedent
that we cannot regard the executive as a God accountable to no laws. We somewhat learned that lesson with Nixon, but how quickly we forget.
jonks
Lifer
The Onion weighs in on the debate. A must watch.
http://www.theonion.com/conten...?utm_source=videoembed
http://www.theonion.com/conten...?utm_source=videoembed
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