Emperor Nero
and who is to stay all christians devote their life to god? in fact, I don't think even 1/4 do devote their life entirely to god. allow me to elaborate: whenever I go to church, I see familiar faces, most being students at my school. in church, they all look so holy and touched by god, at school, they are the biggest assholes...ignoring all christian teachings from the minute they step out of the church. then later on, they preach. I have seen too much hypocrisy that it has become too disgusting.
****
-- Christians (by Christian I mean followers of Christ) are, by defintion, called to surrender their lives to God. That's not to say all do, but it's what God wants of us. And, I believe, those who truly want to follow Jesus endeavor to hand their lives to God.
I'm very sorry about that. We Christians are anything but perfect. In fact, my mom was recently VERY hurt by some prominent members in our church, but does that mean they aren't Christians? I don't think so. The fact is, nobody knows the heart of anybody else. We can make as many assumptions as we want, but we JUST DON'T KNOW.
As for those who claim to be Christians and ignore God and His teachings, I really wish they wouldn't do that. It really is a horrible witness to the world. The thing is, these people may actually THINK they ARE saved, and that's an extension of their imperfection. (Of course, now I'm sinning by judging those people. But does that make my viewpoint invalid? Again, I don't think so -- it just goes to show that I am imperfect, just like them.)
On a quick side note, I want to make it clear that I DON'T think I'm perfect at all. I SIN all the time. Everybody does. It's a fact of life. Now, you may ask, "Who desides what sin is?" The only heartfelt way I can answer is, "God."
Grr... I'm drifting from topic to topic. There are too many things to address. Understand that I am not defending those who claim to be Christians but don't live like it. They will have to answer to God for their actions, like the rest of us. But even so, being a Christian isn't about actions. In my eyes, the poll you brought up has at least one fatal flaw: it doesn't take into account the fact that the popular opinion doesn't determine who goes to heaven and who doesn't. God does.
Here's something important to remember: If you believe Christ is the the Messiah, it all fits into place. Everything. All the arguments, when taken from a logical perspective and the assumption that God exists, work together to form an impermeable quilt (to me). The thing is, the same thing can be said for the other side. If you assume that God doesn't exist and/or that Christ isn't the Messiah, then your arguments will make complete sense to you. So, I don't think either one of us is going to change the other's mind, but I think it is important to maintain open discussion about these topics so that we, as falty human beings, don't get into the brainwashed position of, "My way's true and you just suck so STHU." The fact of the matter is that I do believe my way is true and that you can't persuade me to change my mind, but I'm still willing to hear what you have to say and discuss it with you in a calm, reasonable manner. Because nobody was ever truly converted to Christianity by having Christ shoved down their throat.
****
most people claiming to be true followers of christ are hypocrites...some truly try and some are successful; most give a half-assed job of trying to be like christ and think it's good enough. I bet many of you are offended right now because you're doing a quick self-assessment and came to the conclusion that you really do try to follow in god's footsteps. here's a very interesting statistics my psychology teacher told me about for those who are offended: 60% believe bill clinton is going to heaven; 95% believe mother theresa is in heaven, and 99% believe they are going to heaven. do you really believe those 99% have a better chance in getting into heaven than mother theresa? people who are ignorant or intentionally ignoring their own flaws really get to me. they think they are god's gift to the world and they think they're very close perfect so they sneer and judge their neighbors. I realize many of my own faults so that is why I do not claim I devote my life to god, nor do I claim to be a true christian. sadly, there are people out there who do claim such things while there are absolute scums.
****
I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with the generalization at the beginning of this last paragraph. Just because people are beyond imperfect doesn't make them hippocrites.
*weak smile* Um, seriously, no offense here, but it's almost hippocritical to call them hippocrites... I understand that you freely admit that you aren't perfect, but I seriously doubt that these people believe they are perfect. And, just like you, that's what keeps them from being hippocrites. They know they're screwing up, but they're trying to fix it (I would certainly hope!).
And: Anybody who seriously calls himself perfect immediately admits that he isn't, right?
Do we have to be perfect to devote our lives to God? And I didn't (mean to) say that my life is completely devoted to God. I (should have) said I want it to be, and that I'm struggling immensely with giving God every part of my life. You don't know how hard it is to be self-sufficient and then relinquish control to God.
In all honesty, I suspect that their isn't a single person on this Earth who can say that they have honestly given God every part of their life. It's too hard; we're too self-serving and sinful. But God says that he loves us anyway. "All" he asks is that we develop a relationship with him, and live as similarly to Christ as we can. Even if you don't make it (and none of us truly do), you can still go to heaven. But it's not supposed to be about getting to heaven -- it's supposed to be about pleasing God.
Again, who am I to say whether or not somebody is going to heaven? I don't know their heart. What I can say is that Jesus has said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life." Take that as you will, but understand that I believe God will hold you accountable...
****
there's this guy in my history class who thinks he is religious and devoted to god. he believes in the absolute strict interpretation of the bible so he preaches like crazy, not to mention has very little respect for other religions and think all non-christians are immoral. he even specifically told some of my hindu friends their religion is "laughable" and they are "heathens." he had done other things which I do not care to talk about (since it involves person details about people I love), but just know that those actions are prohibited in the bible, which he claims to abide by.
****
Again, I'm sorry that this young man (Sounds funny to say that -- I'm only turning 18 on Saturday) is not living up to the standards set forth in the Bible. Like I said before, I really wish he wouldn't do that because it paints Christianity in a bad light.
In reality, he MIGHT be saved. I don't know. His actions would indicate that he is not but, like I said, I am not his judge and I don't know his heart.
I certianly don't think he should call anybody's religious beliefs "laughable" (no matter how much he or I disagree with them) but (umm, heh), by one definition, the word "heathen" would be appropriate:
First definition from Dictionary.com:
---
hea·then (hthn)
n., pl. hea·thens or heathen.
1)
a)One who adheres to the religion of a people or nation that does not
acknowledge the God of Judaism, Christianity, or Islam.
b)Such persons considered as a group; the unconverted.
---
Honestly, though, I don't want to get into an argument about this, because it's entirely semantics...
****
IMO, there two real misconceptions:
1) christians are moral people who devote their life to god. granted, there are some people who absolutely love god and try their best to abide by his teachings, but sadly, they are in the extreme minority. most THINK and CLAIM they are religious but they are either ignorant to or purposely ignore their own faults, and these people are in the majority. for those of you who are offended at the latter statement, be reminded of the statistics - there are more people who think they are going to heaven than people who think mother theresa, who I believe to be a true christian, is in heaven. I'm sorry to say I don't have actual first hand sources of that statistic besides from what my teacher told me, but if you poll an unsuspecting crowd, you will come up with similiar results...and the larger the crowd, the more accurate the results (ex. asking 2 people if they think they're going to heaven won't be very accurate since one could say yes, anoter could say no - the results would be 50%). my point? people are ignorant to their own faults so it's rather hard to trust somebody who claims to be an adament christ follower.
****
I must admit I am a little offended by that generalization. And I'm not saying that because it does or doesn't apply to me. I'm saying it because you are making the same assumption that many people crucify (excuse the pun -- it wasn't intended) Christians for (presumably) making. That you know these people's hearts... Nobody truly knows the heart of anybody else, but we can all think we know.
I'm sorry to say that there is a big misconception that Christianity says works will get you to heaven. Because that's not true. It's not something we earn -- it's a gift.
****[/b]
misconception number 2: non-christians are immoral. take the guy I was mentioning ealier for example. although many may not be as bad as him, I still believe many christians have slight prejudices in thinking at least non christians are not as moral as themselves.
****
Well, here we have to define what immoral means. To me, immoral means living or acting in a way that God doesn't want us to. By that definition, every one of us is immoral. But the amount of immoraltiy in each individual, according to God, doesn't matter.
You said:
"I still believe many christians have slight prejudices in thinking at least non christians are not as moral as themselves."
And, unfortunately, that is all too true. It sounds smug and self-serving to say it (I know), but, as Christians, we are not perfect, just forgiven.
It's hard for many Christians (including me) to understand but one sin is not more sinful than another. Me being proud and bragging about my GPA is just a sinful as a murderer killing somebody. I know, logically, it doesn't make sense and, to us, they are completely different acts. But, in the eyes of God, a sin is a sin is a sin. Fortuanately, according to Christianity, He offers a way for EVERYBODY to be forgiven no matter how many sins they've committed. And that is through Jesus' death on the cross.
****
from my experiences, I am wary of anybody who claims to devote their life to god - this isn't a personal attack on you epsilon, but a general statement of christians...I don't know you and you could be the nicest, most loving person in the world or you could be the biggest asshole who claims to love god dearly. my priest said that if you tell a truly humble person he's a bigot, he will not deny that or he will ask why do you think that. but if you accuse a bigot of being a bigot, he will viciously lash out at you. apply that in this situation: true christians will rarely ever claim to be one since they realize they are not perfect and that they still have room for self improvement while people who put on the facade of true christians will get intensely offended when you point out they are not following christ's teachings.
****
Phew, I've been on the computer for nearly two hours, and your last paragraph could lead to another two hours of typing, but I'll try to simplify as much as possible (for my body's sake).
I agree completely with your statement about the bigot. And I can tell you how I'd react. I'd flatly deny that I'm a bigot, but then I'd ask you why you thought so. *grin* So that puts me somewhere in the middle. I really don't think I'm a bigot, but I won't lash out at you for calling me one. I'll try to understand where your (what I think is a) misconception of me comes from.
Quote:
"true christians will rarely ever claim to be one since they realize they are not perfect and that they still have room for self improvement while people who put on the facade of true christians will get intensely offended when you point out they are not following christ's teachings."
First, I have to say that I see that quote as making the mistake of thinking Christians equate themselves with perfection. An intelligent Christian will never claim to be perfect. But neither will any type of intelligent person.
In fact, I believe that a true Christian will never flaunt his or her Christianity in the face of another and will try (I say try because we're all human -- he or she would have to get past the pride of being criticized) to listen carefully when you tell them you don't think they are living up to their own standards.
There, that's the last part in a nutshell (nine minutes). Now I need to take a break.
I really hope you took to heart what I said here and that you'll earnestly reply.
Thanks a lot for even reading this far.
Epsilon
and who is to stay all christians devote their life to god? in fact, I don't think even 1/4 do devote their life entirely to god. allow me to elaborate: whenever I go to church, I see familiar faces, most being students at my school. in church, they all look so holy and touched by god, at school, they are the biggest assholes...ignoring all christian teachings from the minute they step out of the church. then later on, they preach. I have seen too much hypocrisy that it has become too disgusting.
****
-- Christians (by Christian I mean followers of Christ) are, by defintion, called to surrender their lives to God. That's not to say all do, but it's what God wants of us. And, I believe, those who truly want to follow Jesus endeavor to hand their lives to God.I'm very sorry about that. We Christians are anything but perfect. In fact, my mom was recently VERY hurt by some prominent members in our church, but does that mean they aren't Christians? I don't think so. The fact is, nobody knows the heart of anybody else. We can make as many assumptions as we want, but we JUST DON'T KNOW.
As for those who claim to be Christians and ignore God and His teachings, I really wish they wouldn't do that. It really is a horrible witness to the world. The thing is, these people may actually THINK they ARE saved, and that's an extension of their imperfection. (Of course, now I'm sinning by judging those people. But does that make my viewpoint invalid? Again, I don't think so -- it just goes to show that I am imperfect, just like them.)
On a quick side note, I want to make it clear that I DON'T think I'm perfect at all. I SIN all the time. Everybody does. It's a fact of life. Now, you may ask, "Who desides what sin is?" The only heartfelt way I can answer is, "God."
Grr... I'm drifting from topic to topic. There are too many things to address. Understand that I am not defending those who claim to be Christians but don't live like it. They will have to answer to God for their actions, like the rest of us. But even so, being a Christian isn't about actions. In my eyes, the poll you brought up has at least one fatal flaw: it doesn't take into account the fact that the popular opinion doesn't determine who goes to heaven and who doesn't. God does.
Here's something important to remember: If you believe Christ is the the Messiah, it all fits into place. Everything. All the arguments, when taken from a logical perspective and the assumption that God exists, work together to form an impermeable quilt (to me). The thing is, the same thing can be said for the other side. If you assume that God doesn't exist and/or that Christ isn't the Messiah, then your arguments will make complete sense to you. So, I don't think either one of us is going to change the other's mind, but I think it is important to maintain open discussion about these topics so that we, as falty human beings, don't get into the brainwashed position of, "My way's true and you just suck so STHU." The fact of the matter is that I do believe my way is true and that you can't persuade me to change my mind, but I'm still willing to hear what you have to say and discuss it with you in a calm, reasonable manner. Because nobody was ever truly converted to Christianity by having Christ shoved down their throat.
****
most people claiming to be true followers of christ are hypocrites...some truly try and some are successful; most give a half-assed job of trying to be like christ and think it's good enough. I bet many of you are offended right now because you're doing a quick self-assessment and came to the conclusion that you really do try to follow in god's footsteps. here's a very interesting statistics my psychology teacher told me about for those who are offended: 60% believe bill clinton is going to heaven; 95% believe mother theresa is in heaven, and 99% believe they are going to heaven. do you really believe those 99% have a better chance in getting into heaven than mother theresa? people who are ignorant or intentionally ignoring their own flaws really get to me. they think they are god's gift to the world and they think they're very close perfect so they sneer and judge their neighbors. I realize many of my own faults so that is why I do not claim I devote my life to god, nor do I claim to be a true christian. sadly, there are people out there who do claim such things while there are absolute scums.
****
I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with the generalization at the beginning of this last paragraph. Just because people are beyond imperfect doesn't make them hippocrites.
*weak smile* Um, seriously, no offense here, but it's almost hippocritical to call them hippocrites... I understand that you freely admit that you aren't perfect, but I seriously doubt that these people believe they are perfect. And, just like you, that's what keeps them from being hippocrites. They know they're screwing up, but they're trying to fix it (I would certainly hope!
).And: Anybody who seriously calls himself perfect immediately admits that he isn't, right?
Do we have to be perfect to devote our lives to God? And I didn't (mean to) say that my life is completely devoted to God. I (should have) said I want it to be, and that I'm struggling immensely with giving God every part of my life. You don't know how hard it is to be self-sufficient and then relinquish control to God.
In all honesty, I suspect that their isn't a single person on this Earth who can say that they have honestly given God every part of their life. It's too hard; we're too self-serving and sinful. But God says that he loves us anyway. "All" he asks is that we develop a relationship with him, and live as similarly to Christ as we can. Even if you don't make it (and none of us truly do), you can still go to heaven. But it's not supposed to be about getting to heaven -- it's supposed to be about pleasing God.
Again, who am I to say whether or not somebody is going to heaven? I don't know their heart. What I can say is that Jesus has said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life." Take that as you will, but understand that I believe God will hold you accountable...
****
there's this guy in my history class who thinks he is religious and devoted to god. he believes in the absolute strict interpretation of the bible so he preaches like crazy, not to mention has very little respect for other religions and think all non-christians are immoral. he even specifically told some of my hindu friends their religion is "laughable" and they are "heathens." he had done other things which I do not care to talk about (since it involves person details about people I love), but just know that those actions are prohibited in the bible, which he claims to abide by.
****
Again, I'm sorry that this young man (Sounds funny to say that -- I'm only turning 18 on Saturday
) is not living up to the standards set forth in the Bible. Like I said before, I really wish he wouldn't do that because it paints Christianity in a bad light.In reality, he MIGHT be saved. I don't know. His actions would indicate that he is not but, like I said, I am not his judge and I don't know his heart.
I certianly don't think he should call anybody's religious beliefs "laughable" (no matter how much he or I disagree with them) but (umm, heh), by one definition, the word "heathen" would be appropriate:
First definition from Dictionary.com:
---
hea·then (hthn)
n., pl. hea·thens or heathen.
1)
a)One who adheres to the religion of a people or nation that does not
acknowledge the God of Judaism, Christianity, or Islam.
b)Such persons considered as a group; the unconverted.
---
Honestly, though, I don't want to get into an argument about this, because it's entirely semantics...
****
IMO, there two real misconceptions:
1) christians are moral people who devote their life to god. granted, there are some people who absolutely love god and try their best to abide by his teachings, but sadly, they are in the extreme minority. most THINK and CLAIM they are religious but they are either ignorant to or purposely ignore their own faults, and these people are in the majority. for those of you who are offended at the latter statement, be reminded of the statistics - there are more people who think they are going to heaven than people who think mother theresa, who I believe to be a true christian, is in heaven. I'm sorry to say I don't have actual first hand sources of that statistic besides from what my teacher told me, but if you poll an unsuspecting crowd, you will come up with similiar results...and the larger the crowd, the more accurate the results (ex. asking 2 people if they think they're going to heaven won't be very accurate since one could say yes, anoter could say no - the results would be 50%). my point? people are ignorant to their own faults so it's rather hard to trust somebody who claims to be an adament christ follower.
****
I must admit I am a little offended by that generalization. And I'm not saying that because it does or doesn't apply to me. I'm saying it because you are making the same assumption that many people crucify (excuse the pun -- it wasn't intended) Christians for (presumably) making. That you know these people's hearts... Nobody truly knows the heart of anybody else, but we can all think we know.I'm sorry to say that there is a big misconception that Christianity says works will get you to heaven. Because that's not true. It's not something we earn -- it's a gift.
****[/b]
misconception number 2: non-christians are immoral. take the guy I was mentioning ealier for example. although many may not be as bad as him, I still believe many christians have slight prejudices in thinking at least non christians are not as moral as themselves.
****
Well, here we have to define what immoral means. To me, immoral means living or acting in a way that God doesn't want us to. By that definition, every one of us is immoral. But the amount of immoraltiy in each individual, according to God, doesn't matter.
You said:
"I still believe many christians have slight prejudices in thinking at least non christians are not as moral as themselves."
And, unfortunately, that is all too true. It sounds smug and self-serving to say it (I know), but, as Christians, we are not perfect, just forgiven.
It's hard for many Christians (including me) to understand but one sin is not more sinful than another. Me being proud and bragging about my GPA is just a sinful as a murderer killing somebody. I know, logically, it doesn't make sense and, to us, they are completely different acts. But, in the eyes of God, a sin is a sin is a sin. Fortuanately, according to Christianity, He offers a way for EVERYBODY to be forgiven no matter how many sins they've committed. And that is through Jesus' death on the cross.
****
from my experiences, I am wary of anybody who claims to devote their life to god - this isn't a personal attack on you epsilon, but a general statement of christians...I don't know you and you could be the nicest, most loving person in the world or you could be the biggest asshole who claims to love god dearly. my priest said that if you tell a truly humble person he's a bigot, he will not deny that or he will ask why do you think that. but if you accuse a bigot of being a bigot, he will viciously lash out at you. apply that in this situation: true christians will rarely ever claim to be one since they realize they are not perfect and that they still have room for self improvement while people who put on the facade of true christians will get intensely offended when you point out they are not following christ's teachings.
****
Phew, I've been on the computer for nearly two hours, and your last paragraph could lead to another two hours of typing, but I'll try to simplify as much as possible (for my body's sake
).I agree completely with your statement about the bigot.
And I can tell you how I'd react. I'd flatly deny that I'm a bigot, but then I'd ask you why you thought so. *grin* So that puts me somewhere in the middle. I really don't think I'm a bigot, but I won't lash out at you for calling me one. I'll try to understand where your (what I think is a) misconception of me comes from.Quote:
"true christians will rarely ever claim to be one since they realize they are not perfect and that they still have room for self improvement while people who put on the facade of true christians will get intensely offended when you point out they are not following christ's teachings."
First, I have to say that I see that quote as making the mistake of thinking Christians equate themselves with perfection. An intelligent Christian will never claim to be perfect. But neither will any type of intelligent person.
In fact, I believe that a true Christian will never flaunt his or her Christianity in the face of another and will try (I say try because we're all human -- he or she would have to get past the pride of being criticized) to listen carefully when you tell them you don't think they are living up to their own standards.
There, that's the last part in a nutshell (nine minutes
). Now I need to take a break. I really hope you took to heart what I said here and that you'll earnestly reply.
Thanks a lot for even reading this far.
Epsilon
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