A case for religion, and against AA.

[JEDIYoda]

Building blocks of life coming together over billions of years.How do you know that..judging by what took place on one planet among millions....

Perhaps you're hearing "it all happened to come together" because that's what you choose to hear. <-- most likely that is the way what you said was interpreted......

Humans and their ancestors have only been around at best ~200,000 years; Earth itself is 4.7 billion years old and the universe ~3x Earth's age. A billion years, let alone several billion is an incredibly long time span. It's quite possible that over billions of years those building blocks did come together to form intelligent life. <-- it`s quite possible that thre is intelligent life on another planet.....so...

Your statement that space is "dead" is somewhat laughable; humans have only visited the Earth's moon, there's far more to space than just our planets' satellite.<--- there is nothing to disprove the "dead" statement......

 

[Retro Rob]

Building blocks of life coming together over billions of years.

A billion years, let alone several billion is an incredibly long time span. It's quite possible that over billions of years those building blocks did come together to form intelligent life.

Given enough time, ANYTHING can happen. That requires a tremendous amount of faith....and the point I am glad you demonstrated so eloquently.

Science needs billions of years, that way, they can fit virtually anything inside the evolutionary paradigm.

Its a gap-filler... "I don't know, time did it".

 

[lotus503]

I have no issue with it being on faith, as to me, it means believing in God though not being able to see Him.

The only reason why I bring God into the picture is because intelligence is the key behind everything we use in the human world.

For instance, back in the 50s, science tried to recreate the early earth to determine how the amino acids and stuff came into existence so as to jump start evolution.

From what I recall, no matter what the scientists did in the lab, they were not able to create them all (I think they got a few), and that took some adjustments made by intelligent calculations to even get the few they had created.

That showed me one very important thing: those calculations had to be precise, and intelligence can only produce that sort of precision. Even if I am wrong about the God of the Bible (the God I follow), some agent with intelligence, had a hand in life on this planet to a greater or lesser degree.

I often ponder similar thoughts, I do think as pointed out just above that given billions of years, matter can do all sorts of stuff. Keep in mind at a basic level its just all atoms. But I've pondered was it intelligent life in the universe that seeded earth with the building blocks of DNA.

I can keep an open mind with relation to origins of life and intelligence behind those origins, Truth is I simply don't know. But when you start to add in all the other stuff of organized religion and put Mankinds tint on everything you start to lose me.

But we can certainly agree that there is potential in intelligent life creating the origins of man.

 

[sandorski]

Its one thing to have building blocks for life, and an entirely different thing for them to come together in such a way that intelligent beings are eventually born.

Essentially, what I am hearing is that it all just happened to "come together". Nothing in the human world just "comes together"...nothing useful just "came together" on its own.

We can rationalize that we were created by some external agent by how unique we are compared to our dead environment (space) and other lifeless planets (granting that we haven't seen every planet).

The only reason why we can deduce that a watch on a beach had a watchmaker is because it stands out completely from its environment. A smooth rock, in a pile of rocks, wouldn't mean that that rock was designed.

I apply the same logic to how "unique" out planet is to the rest of what we've observed so far. That can be replaced, though, but for now, special creation is the best explanation as to why we're so different than what we've seen in the universe so far.

Snowflakes come together, crystals come together, etc.

 

[Retro Rob]

I often ponder similar thoughts, I do think as pointed out just above that given billions of years, matter can do all sorts of stuff.

So are you saying that if I sit my IPhone (matter manipulated by man) on an office desk for 10 millions years, it will become something different that what it originally was?

Serious question.

I can keep an open mind with relation to origins of life and intelligence behind those origins, Truth is I simply don't know. But when you start to add in all the other stuff of organized religion and put Mankinds tint on everything you start to lose me.

I understand where you're going here.

But we can certainly agree that there is potential in intelligent life creating the origins of man.

Good point.

 

[Retro Rob]

Snowflakes come together, crystals come together, etc.

But do they become intelligent, self-aware snowflakes with the ability to reason, become civilized, and build things purely off "coming together"?

 

[alzan]

Given enough time, ANYTHING can happen. That requires a tremendous amount of faith....and the point I am glad you demonstrated so eloquently.

Science needs billions of years, that way, they can fit virtually anything inside the evolutionary paradigm.

Its a gap-filler... "I don't know, time did it".

"Anything can happen given enough time" requires faith? Not sure what you're trying to say.

Science doesn't need time to fill gaps in knowledge, scientists put forth hypotheses, those are then studied and proven or disproven based on what can be measured, detected, tested, etc.

 

[Retro Rob]

You made an excellent point.

We have one planet with life (that we know of), and to say that with time, intelligent beings can come to existence is something that cannot be falsified because we have only one piece of data to consider, and nothing to test since there are no planets with life that we've found.

Common Ancestry only happened one time....Darwinian evolution, one time. As far as we know, this could be one of many ways beings can come into existence, so we cannot remotely rule out special Creation.

Sometimes, evolutionary thinking can brainwash a person and cause "one-way thinking" just as good as good old religious indoctrination.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

So are you saying that if I sit my IPhone (matter manipulated by man) on an office desk for 10 millions years, it will become something different that what it originally was?

Your iPhone is something different every single subsequent moment of its existence. Do you think that the particles of the atoms that compose it are just sitting still? You only continue to call it an "iPhone" because the changes that take place are basically imperceptible to the un-aided human senses.

 

[alzan]

You made an excellent point.

We have one planet with life (that we know of), and to say that with time, intelligent beings can come to existence is something that cannot be falsified because we have only one piece of data to consider, and nothing to test since there are no planets with life that we've found.

Common Ancestry only happened one time....Darwinian evolution, one time. As far as we know, this could be one of many ways beings can come into existence, so we cannot remotely rule out special Creation.

Sometimes, evolutionary thinking can brainwash a person and cause "one-way thinking" just as good as good old religious indoctrination.

No we can't rule it out but given that it requires something that is outside of our ability to detect, measure, etc., it's a moot point.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

You made an excellent point.

We have one planet with life (that we know of), and to say that with time, intelligent beings can come to existence is something that cannot be falsified because we have only one piece of data to consider, and nothing to test since there are no planets with life that we've found.

When were there zero intelligent beings in the universe?

Common Ancestry only happened one time....Darwinian evolution, one time.

You've verified that it has not happened anywhere else in the universe? How did you do that?

As far as we know, this could be one of many ways beings can come into existence, so we cannot remotely rule out special Creation.

What things could "rule out special Creation," Rob? What could possibly be evidence that "special Creation" didn't happen?

Sometimes, evolutionary thinking can brainwash a person and cause "one-way thinking" just as good as good old religious indoctrination.

That's rich. How about you actually acknowledge my questions instead of continuing to bury your head in the sand, all the while lambasting others for their "one-way thinking."

 

[sandorski]

But do they become intelligent, self-aware snowflakes with the ability to reason, become civilized, and build things purely off "coming together"?

They don't, but they come together.

 

[Retro Rob]

When were there zero intelligent beings in the universe?

Never. God as always existed.

You've verified that it has not happened anywhere else in the universe? How did you do that?

I'm not saying it didn't. I'm pointing out that showing humans came via natural causes doesn't mean that that's the only means of creating intelligence. There's no way to show that it is, particularly if people believe intelligent life exists on other planets. We'd have to determine what brought them into existence first.

Other that, you'd be implying a universal negative, which zero supporting evidence.

What things could "rule out special Creation," Rob? What could possibly be evidence that "special Creation" didn't happen?

I believe special creation did happen. You need to rephrase your question.

That's rich. How about you actually acknowledge my questions instead of continuing to bury your head in the sand, all the while lambasting others for their "one-way thinking."

Stop being such an incredulous jackass and I will.



There are no personal attacks allowed in Discussion Club.



esquared
Anandtech Forum Director

 

[witeken]

So are you saying that if I sit my IPhone (matter manipulated by man) on an office desk for 10 millions years, it will become something different that what it originally was?

No, but the whole universe. Matter will clump together because of gravity: starts will form. Those will explode and create the elements necessary for life. When a new star forms, matter orbiting it will also clump together: planets. They contain the elements you need for life, and when the conditions are good, life will occur. And given enough time, they will evolve into all animals and organisms you see today, or something similar.

But do they become intelligent, self-aware snowflakes with the ability to reason, become civilized, and build things purely off "coming together"?

Humans are also just regular life, evolved from simple organisms. Just a few million years ago, humans didn't exist.

That's sort of the whole point of evolution/natural selection.

 

[Retro Rob]

No, but the whole universe. Matter will clump together because of gravity: starts will form. Those will explode and create the elements necessary for life. When a new star forms, matter orbiting it will also clump together: planets. They contain the elements you need for life, and when the conditions are good, life will occur. And given enough time, they will evolve into all animals and organisms you see today, or something similar.

Again, 'given enough time, anything can occur'. You cannot see why this is faith based. How many experiments verify this?

This is exactly the same as saying my phone will completely change to something other than what it is today if I give it millions of years.

Yet, that sounds silly, but it's exactly what you're saying.

May be I can sit a pile of bitumen on a potholed street for millions of years, and the holes will eventually be filled somehow without human intervention.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Never. God as always existed.

So who's talking about intelligent beings "coming into existence," then? I don't see anybody but you talking about it, but you don't believe it even happened.

I'm not saying it didn't.

That's exactly what you're saying. You are flatly lying right now.

I'm pointing out that showing humans came via natural causes doesn't mean that that's the only means of creating intelligence.

You don't believe that intelligence was created. You said you do not believe there was ever a time when zero intelligent beings existed. Therefore intelligence was not created, if we are to believe your claims.

There's no way to show that it is, particularly if people believe intelligent life exists on other planets. We'd have to determine what brought them into existence first.

What are some examples of things "brought into existence," according to you, and how can you establish that those things are "brought into existence"?

Other that, you'd be implying a universal negative, which zero supporting evidence.

You haven't the foggiest idea what you're even saying.

I believe special creation did happen. You need to rephrase your question.

No, I don't. I know that common ancestry happened, but I can cite examples of things that would falsify it if they were found. I want to know what could falsify the idea that special creation happened.

So? What would that be?

Stop being such an incredulous jackass and I will.

Did you forget your manners, Rob?

 

[witeken]

Again, 'given enough time, anything can occur'. You cannot see why this is faith based. How many experiments verify this?

The laws of nature allow life to exist. They don't allow phones to magically change.

 

[Retro Rob]

The laws of nature allow life to exist. They don't allow phones to magically change.

Phones are matter.

You cannot see why this line of thinking gives some credence to creationists claims that you need faith in time to account for consciousness. Matter somehow became conscious, no one knows how, but in the absence of that knowledge, we temporarily fill that gap with time.

If this is scientifically consistent, any matter should eventually become conscious, given the right amount of time, and the right circumstance. If not, then it isn't science, and is mere guesswork.

 

[alzan]

Phones are matter.

You cannot see why this line of thinking gives some credence to creationists claims that you need faith in time to account for consciousness. Matter somehow became conscious, no one knows how, but in the absence of that knowledge, we temporarily fill that gap with time.

If this is scientifically consistent, any matter should eventually become conscious, given the right amount of time, and the right circumstance. If not, then it isn't science, and is mere guesswork.

Is this what you mean?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Complexity/Consciousness


pos·tu·late - verb

verb: postulate; 3rd person present: postulates; past tense: postulated; past participle: postulated; gerund or present participle: postulating

/&#712;päsCH&#601;&#716;l&#257;t/

1. suggest or assume the existence, fact, or truth of (something) as a basis for reasoning, discussion, or belief. "his theory postulated a rotatory movement for hurricanes"

synonyms: put forward, suggest, advance, posit, hypothesize, propose

Is it true? Get back to me in a few billion years and we can talk about it.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Again, 'given enough time, anything can occur'. You cannot see why this is faith based. How many experiments verify this?

Without reason to believe that something can't happen, why shouldn't we believe that anything can happen? It isn't a matter of faith to understand that the laws of physics are actually descriptive, not prescriptive. Only a person who is dreadfully ignorant of epistemology would think otherwise.

This is exactly the same as saying my phone will completely change to something other than what it is today if I give it millions of years.

I repeat me earlier point: your phone is something different every second of every day.

How are you not embarrassed?

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Matter somehow became conscious

Did it? When was there not conscious matter in the universe?

If this is scientifically consistent, any matter should eventually become conscious, given the right amount of time, and the right circumstance. If not, then it isn't science, and is mere guesswork.

How do you know which matter is conscious and which matter is not?

 

[Dr. Zaus]

Again, 'given enough time, anything can occur'. You cannot see why this is faith based. How many experiments verify this?

http://www.fromquarkstoquasars.com/quantum-biology-can-life-control-quantum-forces/

This is exactly the same as saying my phone will completely change to something other than what it is today if I give it millions of years.
Yet, that sounds silly, but it's exactly what you're saying.

No.

May be I can sit a pile of bitumen on a potholed street for millions of years, and the holes will eventually be filled somehow without human intervention.

Yes.

 

[disappoint]

Sure, the wavelength is real.

But not the color. There are no laws that dictate that what you perceive as green, is how that wavelength looks to other people, other animals or aliens: Is your red the same as my red?

Your senses do not really exist, they're signals of your brain, the product of evolution.

Waaaat? The signals in your brain don't exist? Seriously?

Your brain exists, the signals exist. They are real. They can also be measured.

What label you assign to a certain wavelength of light matters not.

 

[witeken]

Waaaat? The signals in your brain don't exist? Seriously?

Your brain exists, the signals exist. They are real. They can also be measured.

What label you assign to a certain wavelength of light matters not.

Maybe you should read my post again? That's exactly what I said.

 

[soulcougher73]

I for one am not willing to believe that out of the billions and billions of planets in the universes that by chance this is the only planet with human life........it just did not happen by chance......

You have evidence there is no life in the universe? Please share your findings with the world please. Im sorry for doubting you before, i was unaware you had travelled the whole universe.