A case for religion, and against AA.

[witeken]

His argument is based on Probability, not Faith. Granted we don't currently know how common Life is or can be, but given enough time we will have a better grasp on determining what the Probability is. That said, we have Evidence of Life, we still have no Evidence of a god.

It doesn't have to be based on probability; I could formulate it another way:

Is life possible in this universe? Yes.
Number of planets: ~1.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000

If you say that there are no aliens, that means that you have to reduce this gigantic number by 24 orders of magnitude, and keep just "1". No one knows how to do that.

 

[Retro Rob]

We find Proteins in Meteorites. As a precursor to Life as we know it, it suggests that Life could be quite common. Our data set is too small to draw too many conclusions yet. There is the possibility of Life existing elsewhere in our Solar System, but it will take us some time and money to investigate that.

Sure, but having only proteins without precise conditions are just proteins on a meteorite.

Water, is also a precursor, is useless for creating life if its just sitting in glass on a kitchen table.

My point is, you will find elements that are essential to life anywhere.

Doesn't mean a whole lot if they aren't in a productive environment, again, just in my opinion.

 

[JEDIYoda]

We find Proteins in Meteorites. <-- quite literally proves nothing without the rest of what is needed to form life.
As a precursor to Life as we know it, it suggests that Life could be quite common. <-- it suggests?? Meaning again nothing without the rest of the puzzle.

Our data set is too small to draw too many conclusions yet. <-- so why just say it means nothing? Don`t blame the lack of data.....

There is the possibility of Life existing elsewhere in our Solar System, but it will take us some time and money to investigate that. <--- there is also a possibility that there is a red sun and planet where everybody has superhuman strength and can fly and has heat vision....

So let me get this right if we were to add all the elements that would be needed to create intelligent life and let`s say we mix them together what do we get? I hypothize that we get a glob of elements and that is all........

Yet amino acids are found in meteorites...
http://scitechdaily.com/amino-acids-found-in-meteorites-that-experienced-high-temperatures/

Yet up to now there is not another planet exactly like ours in the entire universe.....as of yet discovered. It appears as if there are similar planets but none 100% exactly like ours.
We could even be so bold as to say if and when we find one exactly like ours with the exact same everything, we will probably find life as we know it on that planet....

Yet if 10,000 years from now there is no other life......could we say that a Divine being -- God created......nah Atheists will still find an argument explaining that way.......

 

[alzan]

I'm calling scientists who hold that view as having faith. That includes both theists and atheists persons.

People other than scientists hold that view.

Did I miss witeken's post where he claimed to be a scientist?

The probability, IMO, is very low. I say that because the more we learn about the conditions for life as we know it, the more exoplanets we have to rule out.

Really, we're hoping we find earth-like conditions elsewhere. There is more to this than just finding life for the sake of science, in my opinion.

I bet that as soon as we find intelligent life (if it exists), the world's religions would be directly confronted with the findings, and made to account for their beliefs that God created only the Earth to be inhabited.

I have no doubt about that.

Probably due to your persecuted victim attitude.

 

[JEDIYoda]

People other than scientists hold that view.

Let me see if I get this right -- people other than those scientists that Retro Rob talks about can also have faith? Interesting..thx for pointing that out!!

 

[witeken]

JEDIYoda, you want hard proof that other life exists (which there is no proof of), but you don't need any proof that God exists?

 

[lotus503]

So let me get this right if we were to add all the elements that would be needed to create intelligent life and let`s say we mix them together what do we get? I hypothize that we get a glob of elements and that is all........

Yet amino acids are found in meteorites...
http://scitechdaily.com/amino-acids-found-in-meteorites-that-experienced-high-temperatures/

Yet up to now there is not another planet exactly like ours in the entire universe.....as of yet discovered. It appears as if there are similar planets but none 100% exactly like ours.
We could even be so bold as to say if and when we find one exactly like ours with the exact same everything, we will probably find life as we know it on that planet....

Yet if 10,000 years from now there is no other life......could we say that a Divine being -- God created......nah Atheists will still find an argument explaining that way.......

Bolded is correct lack of proof of something isn't proof of something else, that's flawed thinking.

 

[lotus503]

Let me see if I get this right -- people other than those scientists that Retro Rob talks about can also have faith? Interesting..thx for pointing that out!!

A basic tenet of faith is holding a belief absent evidence. which is fine.
Trouble only surfaces when you try to claim there is evidence for your faith, of which there simply is not.

 

[JEDIYoda]

JEDIYoda, you want hard proof that other life exists (which there is no proof of), but you don't need any proof that God exists?
__________________

Is that the best you can do......you cannot have your cake and eat it too.....
We have been through this many times let me remind you--

Originally Posted by JEDIYoda View Post
even when proof smacks Atheists right upside the head ....they will forever question the proof or the person who found the proof or the motives of that individual.........nothing would be accomplished! Nobody would change their mind.....it would become a never ending cluster.......so no it would not be the biggest scientific discovery........

Originally posted by Retro Rob --This, basically.

If God did prove himself today, they'd say "how do you know its the Christian God, and not the thousands of other gods...you have to prove its not those gods, first!".

Then, if God says he's Yahweh, they'd object and say: "Well, how do we know that its the exact God in the Bible....how do we know God inspired the dubious writers of the Bible?"

If he says he did, then they'd say: "Well anyone could claim to be Moses...how we know that its not someone else who claimed to be Moses?".

..and so on and so on. This is how they full-proof their arguments, buy pushing the question further and further back.

Wiketin you claim to be a scientists huh??

 

[sandorski]

Sure, but having only proteins without precise conditions are just proteins on a meteorite.

Water, is also a precursor, is useless for creating life if its just sitting in glass on a kitchen table.

My point is, you will find elements that are essential to life anywhere.

Doesn't mean a whole lot if they aren't in a productive environment, again, just in my opinion.

True, however it was once thought not possible. We have barely scratched the surface in our search for Life off Earth. Proteins are more important than Water in that search, they are more complex and essential for Life as we know it.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Bolded is correct lack of proof of something isn't proof of something else, that's flawed thinking.

I for one am not willing to believe that out of the billions and billions of planets in the universes that by chance this is the only planet with human life........it just did not happen by chance......

 

[lotus503]

Is that the best you can do......you cannot have your cake and eat it too.....
We have been through this many times let me remind you--




Wiketin you claim to be a scientists huh??

I have answered each of these points in addition to others on the thread.

Great claims require great clear concrete evidence. you say there is a God, I say prove it, you tell me you believe he exists based on a set of factors that prove nothing. Its not the belief thats the issue here, you are free to believe what you want, its posturing that belief as adequate evidence.

You say the atheist bar is too high or they move goal posts, I tell you the bar you set is way to low.

There is no evidence of God, that isn't manifest from mans own beliefs around things he does not or did not understand.

again I don't have a problem with that believe what you want, just don't try to pass it off as anything but belief and faith.

 

[witeken]

Is that the best you can do......you cannot have your cake and eat it too.....
We have been through this many times let me remind you--

You're only fooling yourself.

There's no evidence. But there are plenty of indications that humans invented all gods.

Wiketin you claim to be a scientists huh??

I don't.

 

[witeken]

I for one am not willing to believe that out of the billions and billions of planets in the universes that by chance this is the only planet with human life........it just did not happen by chance......

You happen to be born on earth. Unfortunately, the other people who were also born on earth haven't found any other life yet. And indeed, out of all those planets, I also think it's very unlikely that this is the only planet with life. But of course it's just by chance, the earth happened had the right conditions for life to occur.

 

[lotus503]

I for one am not willing to believe that out of the billions and billions of planets in the universes that by chance this is the only planet with human life........it just did not happen by chance......

well that's just it you have to draw a conclusion to something I am fine with not knowing the answer.

We do not know exactly how life started, we do not know if intelligent life exists outside earth and we do not know if there is a God beyond Mans invention of him.

Because we do not know these answers we can look at evidentiary factors/mathematical probability with each and if inclined form a belief based on these, thats the simple truth of what your doing when making a choice to believe in god.

taking information and forming a beliefs based on your life experience, that process requires no evidence whatsoever, its subjective and highly interpretive.

Its the conclusion you draw absent evidence, but present as evidence I find flaw with.

 

[JEDIYoda]

You happen to be born on earth. Unfortunately, the other people who were also born on earth haven't found any other life yet. And indeed, out of all those planets, I also think it's very unlikely that this is the only planet with life. But of course it's just by chance, the earth happened had the right conditions for life to occur.

Atheist talking point...by chance now that's convenient.....but if that's what you believe...it`s your belief! Go for it!

 

[lotus503]

Atheist talking point...by chance now that's convenient.....but if that's what you believe...it`s your belief! Go for it!

He isn't stating absolutes, you stating God is real and exist is an absolute.

there is a difference between entertaining an idea based on available data and then drawing concrete conclusions from that data.

he is stating he thinks its unlikely, you are stating God is real and exists, do you see the difference?

 

[witeken]

Atheist talking point...by chance now that's convenient.....but if that's what you believe...it`s your belief! Go for it!

It's not a belief, it are just the laws of nature.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

Sure, but my point is that it will weaken the very foundation of, at least, the religions based on the Bible. The Bible clearly indicates that life only exists on Earth.

If life exists elsewhere (and I mean intelligent life), then the Bible has serious problems to account for on that topic.

Nope John 16: I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

No reason Jesus couldn't also incarnate for alien species. No reason the meaning of all of creation couldn't be all persons, no matter the planet of their origin.

 

[Retro Rob]

True, however it was once thought not possible. We have barely scratched the surface in our search for Life off Earth. Proteins are more important than Water in that search, they are more complex and essential for Life as we know it.

Its one thing to have building blocks for life, and an entirely different thing for them to come together in such a way that intelligent beings are eventually born.

Essentially, what I am hearing is that it all just happened to "come together". Nothing in the human world just "comes together"...nothing useful just "came together" on its own.

We can rationalize that we were created by some external agent by how unique we are compared to our dead environment (space) and other lifeless planets (granting that we haven't seen every planet).

The only reason why we can deduce that a watch on a beach had a watchmaker is because it stands out completely from its environment. A smooth rock, in a pile of rocks, wouldn't mean that that rock was designed.

I apply the same logic to how "unique" out planet is to the rest of what we've observed so far. That can be replaced, though, but for now, special creation is the best explanation as to why we're so different than what we've seen in the universe so far.

 

[Retro Rob]

Nope John 16: I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

No reason Jesus couldn't also incarnate for alien species. No reason the meaning of all of creation couldn't be all persons, no matter the planet of their origin.

If that's true, you should be able to confirm it elsewhere on the Bible. Can you show my anywhere else where it references aliens as Gods "sheep"?

If not, then you're just reinterpreting one text to make it fit current thinking.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Its one thing to have building blocks for life, and an entirely different thing for them to come together in such a way that intelligent beings are eventually born.

Says who? You? On what basis? Are you a texas sharpshooter?

Essentially, what I am hearing is that it all just happened to "come together". Nothing in the human world just "comes together"...nothing useful just "came together" on its own.

What thing is "on its own" in this universe?

We can rationalize that we were created by some external agent by how unique we are compared to our dead environment (space) and other lifeless planets (granting that we haven't seen every planet).

No, we can't. You are committing a very plain fallacy that I've personally shown to you before, and that you simply refuse to acknowledge.

The only reason why we can deduce that a watch on a beach had a watchmaker is because it stands out completely from its environment. A smooth rock, in a pile of rocks, wouldn't mean that that rock was designed.

Which things in this universe are not designed, Rob? How can you tell?

I apply the same logic to how "unique" out planet is to the rest of what we've observed so far. That can be replaced, though, but for now, special creation is the best explanation as to why we're so different than what we've seen in the universe so far.

Which planets are not unique, Rob?

I repeat my earlier exhortation: it should be no wonder where the stereotypes of theists originate.

 

[lotus503]

Its one thing to have building blocks for life, and an entirely different thing for them to come together in such a way that intelligent beings are eventually born.

Essentially, what I am hearing is that it all just happened to "come together". Nothing in the human world just "comes together"...nothing useful just "came together" on its own.

We can rationalize that we were created by some external agent by how unique we are compared to our dead environment (space) and other lifeless planets (granting that we haven't seen every planet).

The only reason why we can deduce that a watch on a beach had a watchmaker is because it stands out completely from its environment. A smooth rock, in a pile of rocks, wouldn't mean that that rock was designed.

I apply the same logic to how "unique" out planet is to the rest of what we've observed so far. That can be replaced, though, but for now, special creation is the best explanation as to why we're so different than what we've seen in the universe so far.

I want to address the bold, because I agree with this I do believe that God is but one of many potential explanations for the origins of life.

But most of what I see isn't just rationalizing that god could be an answer, rather a fairly rigid doctrine that says you must accept this as the only outcome. My issue isn't that you bring God in as a potential solution to how life or the universe began, its that it must be your only solution based on "Faith" or "Belief" not evidence.

 

[alzan]

Its one thing to have building blocks for life, and an entirely different thing for them to come together in such a way that intelligent beings are eventually born.

Essentially, what I am hearing is that it all just happened to "come together". Nothing in the human world just "comes together"...nothing useful just "came together" on its own.

We can rationalize that we were created by some external agent by how unique we are compared to our dead environment (space) and other lifeless planets (granting that we haven't seen every planet).

The only reason why we can deduce that a watch on a beach had a watchmaker is because it stands out completely from its environment. A smooth rock, in a pile of rocks, wouldn't mean that that rock was designed.

I apply the same logic to how "unique" out planet is to the rest of what we've observed so far. That can be replaced, though, but for now, special creation is the best explanation as to why we're so different than what we've seen in the universe so far.

Building blocks of life coming together over billions of years.

Perhaps you're hearing "it all happened to come together" because that's what you choose to hear.

Humans and their ancestors have only been around at best ~200,000 years; Earth itself is 4.7 billion years old and the universe ~3x Earth's age. A billion years, let alone several billion is an incredibly long time span. It's quite possible that over billions of years those building blocks did come together to form intelligent life.

Your statement that space is "dead" is somewhat laughable; humans have only visited the Earth's moon, there's far more to space than just our planets' satellite.

 

[Retro Rob]

I want to address the bold, because I agree with this I do believe that God is but one of many potential explanations for the origins of life.

But most of what I see isn't just rationalizing that god could be an answer, rather a fairly rigid doctrine that says you must accept this as the only outcome. My issue isn't that you bring God in as a potential solution to how life or the universe began, its that it must be your only solution based on "Faith" or "Belief" not evidence.

I have no issue with it being on faith, as to me, it means believing in God though not being able to see Him.

The only reason why I bring God into the picture is because intelligence is the key behind everything we use in the human world.

For instance, back in the 50s, science tried to recreate the early earth to determine how the amino acids and stuff came into existence so as to jump start evolution.

From what I recall, no matter what the scientists did in the lab, they were not able to create them all (I think they got a few), and that took some adjustments made by intelligent calculations to even get the few they had created.

That showed me one very important thing: those calculations had to be precise, and intelligence can only produce that sort of precision. Even if I am wrong about the God of the Bible (the God I follow), some agent with intelligence, had a hand in life on this planet to a greater or lesser degree.