A case for religion, and against AA.

[JEDIYoda]

Of course, godlessness has proven to be no better:

I know...I was just making a point!!

 

[JEDIYoda]

The basic impulses to cause harm would still be there. However, the sacred texts encouraging harm would not. As the Western World moved away from Religion, all sorts of harm was reduced as well. I suspect a Religion free world would further improve on that.

That said, a certain amount of harm will always exist within society. Also, I doubt religion could be eliminated anyway. What motivates me is to at least affect the Religion we have in such a way that it continues to moderate.

There would still be the same amount of harm as well as wars as well as homeless as well as poor...etc...there would be absolutely no difference!! So why say that with Atheism the world would be a better place? The world would not be any better...............

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Of course, godlessness has proven to be no better:

Is is your suggestion that soviet communism follows strictly from atheism?

If that is not your suggestion, then your comment makes no sense.

If that is your suggestion, then you are simply wrong. If you hope to defend that idea, you are then invited to describe the prescriptive elements of atheism from which you can deduce a prescription for communism.

I think we already know how that's gonna go.

 

[serpretetsky]

Is is your suggestion that soviet communism follows strictly from atheism?

If that is not your suggestion, then your comment makes no sense.

If that is your suggestion, then you are simply wrong. If you hope to defend that idea, you are then invited to describe the prescriptive elements of atheism from which you can deduce a prescription for communism.

I think we already know how that's gonna go.

No, his point is the other way. Soviet communism led to athiesm, which was was no better. I don't know how well soviet communism actually eliiminated christianity/judaism, or how much better or worse the nation was after the empire, because my history isn't too good, but I'm fairly certain that's the argument he was making.

 

[justoh]

Soviet communism led to athiesm. my history isn't too good

...

 

[witeken]

Put simply: people will always discriminate and hate other people - whether they can blame it on religion or not. There will always be cultures that try and overtake another; people who feel superior; people who don't accept different people; people who crave power; people who want things that other people have and will take them... etc.

Getting rid of religion would not decrease this discrimination - people would still hate and then there will be something other people blamed their hate on (ie: history lessons, video games, movies... etc) and then a figurative "war against whatever it is" in order to get rid of it... we all like to believe in the goodness of humanity... perhaps that is the fairy tale we should be doing away with.

There are lots of ways to discriminate, but that doesn't mean you should add yet another one that's completely unnecessary. I do think getting rid of religion would make the world a much better place, but sure it won't get rid of much discrimination.

 

[justoh]

it won't get rid of much discrimination.

If you say so. Seems ridiculous.

 

[Retro Rob]

Is is your suggestion that soviet communism follows strictly from atheism?

If that is not your suggestion, then your comment makes no sense.

If that is your suggestion, then you are simply wrong. If you hope to defend that idea, you are then invited to describe the prescriptive elements of atheism from which you can deduce a prescription for communism.

I think we already know how that's gonna go.

My point is that all you need to do is add something Fundamental to atheism, for instance, Marxist-Leninist brand of atheism, and godlessness and anti-religion becomes just as dangerous as religious fundamentalism.

I do not believe atheism can stand without some sort of philosophy and/or ideology, just like theism is nothing without some fundamental element or belief.

While I do not blame atheism itself for the actions of atheistic dictators, I do think certain ideas and philosophies are a direct product of atheism, and those influence the actions of those who are atheists.

 

[justoh]

My point is that all you need to do is add something Fundamental to atheism, for instance, Marxist-Leninist brand of atheism, and godlessness and anti-religion becomes just as dangerous as religious fundamentalism.

I do not believe atheism can stand without some sort of philosophy and/or ideology, just like theism is nothing without some fundamental element or belief.

While I do not blame atheism itself for the actions of atheistic dictators, I do think certain ideas and philosophies are a direct product of atheism, and those influence the actions of those who are atheists.

First of all, you don't think. Stop kidding yourself.

Of course atheism can "stand without some sort of philosophy." All it requires is a lack of belief. In order for anyone to be moral, of course it requires philosophical consideration. Atheism is the lack of belief in gods, for the billionth time. It could be someone completely untouched by religious influence as well as philosophical reflection, but not necessarily.

Also for the billionth time, stalin's atheism is as relevant as his mustache to his behavior. And as hitchens famously points out,

Now, ok, moving to Marxism, moving to Leninism. Ok, in Russia in 1917, for hundreds of years millions of people have been told the head of the State is a supernatural power. The Czar is not just the head of the Government, not just a king, but he stands between heaven and earth. And this has been inculcated in generations of Russians for hundreds of years. If you're Joseph Stalin, himself a seminarian from Georgia, you shouldn't be in the totalitarianism business if you can't exploit a ready-made reservoir of credulity and servility that's as big as that. It's just waiting for you to capitalize on. So what do you do? Well we'll have an Inquisition, for one thing; we'll have miracles, for another, Lysenko's biology will produce four harvests a year; we'll have harvestry hunts; we'll tell everyone they must be grateful only to the leader for what they get and they must thank him and praise him all the time and that they must be aware all the time of the existence of the counter-revolutionary devil who waits to—you see where I'm going with this.

That's not secularism. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRhczvtmbWE

Take on his challenge, if you...

could come up with an example of a society which had fallen into slavery and bankruptcy and beggary and terror and misery because it had adopted the teachings and the precepts of Spinoza and Einstein and Pierre Bayle and Thomas Jefferson and Thomas Paine, then I'd be impressed and that would be a fair test on a level playing field, but you will find no such example. Indeed, the nearest such example that we do have is these great United States, the first country in the world to have a Constitution that forbids the mention of religion in the public square, except by way of limiting it and saying that the State can take no interest in establishment of faith. Best known under the rubric of the wall of separation. My new slogan is, “Mr. Jefferson, build up that wall.”

 

[PowerEngineer]

My point is that all you need to do is add something Fundamental to atheism, for instance, Marxist-Leninist brand of atheism, and godlessness and anti-religion becomes just as dangerous as religious fundamentalism.

Since it's been a while since I last said this, let me suggest that the danger comes when people develop absolute certainty about their beliefs irrespective of what the origins of those beliefs might be. (Youtube Brownowski and the Ascent of Man)

I do not believe atheism can stand without some sort of philosophy and/or ideology, just like theism is nothing without some fundamental element or belief.

I'd put it a little differently by saying that the ideas of theism and atheism can be expected to pieced into a larger philosophy/ideology puzzle.

While I do not blame atheism itself for the actions of atheistic dictators, I do think certain ideas and philosophies are a direct product of atheism, and those influence the actions of those who are atheists.

I think that "direct product" is way too strong for either theism or atheism. As I said above, I suggest terrible acts are more a direct product of absolute certainty in the truth of one's beliefs. IMHO the humility of doubt is a blessing we should all nurture.

 

[justoh]

I think that "direct product" is way too strong for either theism or atheism. As I said above, I suggest terrible acts are more a direct product of absolute certainty in the truth of one's beliefs. IMHO the humility of doubt is a blessing we should all nurture.

The absolute certainty in the truth of one's beliefs isn't enough, there also needs to be prescriptive conduct involved, of which there isn't any in atheism, for the billionth time plus 2 (and counting). Derpity derp derp.

That someone is an atheist says absolutely nothing about what they believe. That someone is religious says a lot, necessarily. derp?

 

[PowerEngineer]

The absolute certainty in the truth of one's beliefs isn't enough, there also needs to be prescriptive conduct involved, of which there isn't any in atheism, for the billionth time plus 2 (and counting). Derpity derp derp.

That someone is an atheist says absolutely nothing about what they believe. That someone is religious says a lot, necessarily. derp?

A more careful reading of what I said might show you that I didn't say that absolute certainty is "enough". I also said that theism and atheism are only a part of the full picture of one's beliefs. More thought (and humility)might help you avoid "derp" responses.

 

[justoh]

A more careful reading of what I said might show you that I didn't say that absolute certainty is "enough". I also said that theism and atheism are only a part of the full picture of one's beliefs. More thought (and humility)might help you avoid "derp" responses.

I'd put it a little differently by saying that the ideas of theism and atheism can be expected to pieced into a larger philosophy/ideology puzzle.


I think that "direct product" is way too strong for either theism or atheism. As I said above, I suggest terrible acts are more a direct product of absolute certainty in the truth of one's beliefs. IMHO the humility of doubt is a blessing we should all nurture.

It wasn't only what you stated, it's also what you implied by treating them as equivalent. See your comments that I bolded. What are an atheists beliefs? What ideas of atheism? How can you say that atheism is a part of what someone believes? Exactly. You can't. You don't know anything about what an atheist believes based only on what he doesn't.

Speaking to the thread topic, how do reasonable people not get angry with the religious (or people who may as well be religious) in these "discussions" where the same thing has to be stated over and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over. It's not a discussion. There's no progress. Just the same stupid shit over and over, and over, and over.

It's not just frustrating but also deeply insulting to rational people when the religious refuse to listen and constantly bring up, say, stalin as being a logical consequence of atheism.

Speaking of humility, now i imagine you'll say something non-responsive and won't acknowledge any error. Or just won't respond.

 

[alzan]

Again your personal definition......it actually pains you to think that many people now see Atheism morphing into a "religion"..........

Since when do you make the rules?? Spoken like a true atheist.......opinions are opinions deal with them........

BTW -- I do not feel your pain!!

Just as the quoted blog is "someone's personal definition".

Do you derive comfort from your descriptions of an agnostic or atheist of being "pained" that some theists view atheism as "morphing" into a religion? Or is it smugness? The way your statement is worded suggests the latter. A strange response from an adherent of a faith which teaches empathy and compassion to it's members.

perceive it as you please.....there is no explaining away via word games or Atheist talking points the FACT that it appears that slowly but surely Atheism is taking on the form of being a "RELIGION"....I know the truth must really hurt!!

More smugness and/or self-comfort.

As to your other point, the fact that people agree on a given ideology does not make that ideology a religion.

 

[serpretetsky]

...

Hi friend. While your post is very meaningful and I did get a lot of information out of it could you also expand a little more on your point. Some of the details didn't quite sink in. Thanks :biggrin:

 

[justoh]

Hi friend. While your post is very meaningful and I did get a lot of information out of it could you also expand a little more on your point. Some of the details didn't quite sink in. Thanks :biggrin:

I'm not your friend, buddy.

 

[MongGrel]

I still don't think I've ever met an Angry Atheist to be honest, unless someone is trying to shove things down their throat involuntarily.

 

[PowerEngineer]

It wasn't only what you stated, it's also what you implied by treating them as equivalent.

....

Speaking of humility, now i imagine you'll say something non-responsive and won't acknowledge any error. Or just won't respond.

You might do better by sticking to what I stated, rather than reacting to the kneejerk implications you want to add to them. I have a history of responding to thoughtful posts in this thread. Whether or not I respond to another post from you is completely in your hands.

 

[justoh]

You might do better by sticking to what I stated, rather than reacting to the kneejerk implications you want to add to them. I have a history of responding to thoughtful posts in this thread. Whether or not I respond to another post from you is completely in your hands.

I called it! A non-response. Are those statements from you that i quoted not from you? Why did you bother replying if you aren't going to respond to anything substantively? Then again, why am i bothering to ask these questions. I guess we're both idiots.

 

[JEDIYoda]

again..say what you will....it sure does seem like Atheism is on the verge of becoming a religion...sort of morphing into a religion.....
Atheism has its own set of evangelists......apologists......even people who are looked upon as leaders......
It has its own manuals as in scientific papers from scientists who are Atheists, which are used to back up what atheists believe.....

Don`t say that Atheist believe in nothing..that is being disingenuous to the cause of Atheism.............everybody believes something!
u
There is no denying that perception does exist!!

 

[bunnyfubbles]

atheism isn't about believing in something (deities), its not not having belief in something (deities), typically due to lack (or rather, non-existence) of empirical evidence for theism (entirely possible for someone to be an ignorant atheist), i.e. you don't begin to believe in something until there is reason to do so

"atheism" can no more be a "religion" than "theism" is a "religion" (of which, on its own its not, one can believe in a deities while not being religious, this even has its own term - deism)

 

[JEDIYoda]

atheism isn't about believing in something (deities), its not not having belief in something (deities), typically due to lack (or rather, non-existence) of empirical evidence for theism (entirely possible for someone to be an ignorant atheist), i.e. you don't begin to believe in something until there is reason to do so

"atheism" can no more be a "religion" than "theism" is a "religion" (of which, on its own its not, one can believe in a deities while not being religious, this even has its own term - deism)

sorry once again....as an atheist you believe in something.....there is something you believe in...whether it be your fellow man or something else.....
The problem is you all are in denial.....
You have evangelists who speak out for the cause of Atheism.....
You have books and writings and scientific journals that speak out for atheism....

I am sorry that you are in denial but the truth of the matter is that Atheism is becoming a religion....sorry to pop your atheist talking points but the fact are even in the US Military there is even a push by Atheist for Atheist Military Chaplains....

Their are Atheist Churches even.......so please explain again....why you don`t believe that Atheism is becoming the "NEW" religion???

 

[alzan]

sorry once again....as an atheist you believe in something.....there is something you believe in...whether it be your fellow man or something else.....
The problem is you all are in denial.....
You have evangelists who speak out for the cause of Atheism.....
You have books and writings and scientific journals that speak out for atheism....

I am sorry that you are in denial but the truth of the matter is that Atheism is becoming a religion....sorry to pop your atheist talking points but the fact are even in the US Military there is even a push by Atheist for Atheist Military Chaplains....

Their are Atheist Churches even.......so please explain again....why you don`t believe that Atheism is becoming the "NEW" religion???

There

Is your religion Theism? Because that's not the definition of theism; though I'm relatively certain you could cherry pick or construe a definition that suits your purpose.

You seek to see similarities only, at least for the purposes of this particular thread, while ignoring the stark differences. You play word games with yourself and others; and since it's your game with your rules you can't help but to "win".

Brava!

 

[Retro Rob]

Since it's been a while since I last said this, let me suggest that the danger comes when people develop absolute certainty about their beliefs irrespective of what the origins of those beliefs might be. (Youtube Brownowski and the Ascent of Man)

I don't think there is anything wrong with being absolute in your beliefs. Even if an atheist was absolutely certain a god or Yahweh didn't exists, so what? As long as it isn't required that I share that belief, I'm cool with it.

FWIW, I don't doubt God exists and I belief what the Bible says as regards his existence. The difference being, that I don't require you to accept that, nor do I even expect you to.

I think that "direct product" is way too strong for either theism or atheism. As I said above, I suggest terrible acts are more a direct product of absolute certainty in the truth of one's beliefs.

Sure, and I see what you're saying.

IMHO the humility of doubt is a blessing we should all nurture.

Not really...I think it depends on the nature of those doubts. As a matter of opinion, people who are doubtful of everything tend to think they're correct all the time and everyone else is wrong. Nothing humble about that. I think its rare that people honestly and objectively question their own viewpoints, but we're quick to advocate doubting the views of others.

It has to be balance to be humble, IMO. Too much doubt leads to incredulity, too little leads to credulity.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Their...There..that`s the best you can do.....get over it...this I not a doctoral thesis where spelling counts....

actually the stark differences to not negate the similarities...do they??