I cannot argue with that.
If we can agree to stop citing the origins of someone's beliefs, or the lack thereof as evidence, we can have a more productive talk..
See: Genetic Fallacy, please.
Orgins will never prove anything true, or false. My beliefs have to originate somewhere, as does your lack of it. Nothing can be gained from aruging origins.
What "meat"? You're, again, making an unsubstantiated claim that somehow religion full-proofed itself, and just like your typical idiotic militant atheist, cannot provide a single shread of non-speculative evidence to back this claim.
You have a faith, because you don't have any evidence. That's, by your definition, exactly what faith is.
You can call it faith in science, reasoning and logic if you want. I don't care what you call it. But at least I attempt to look for answers that make sense without jumping to "because God" when I don't know.
sandorski
No Lifer
- Oct 10, 1999
- 70,768
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I cannot argue with that.
If we can agree to stop citing the origins of someone's beliefs, or the lack thereof as evidence, we can have a more productive talk..
See: Genetic Fallacy, please.
Orgins will never prove anything true, or false. My beliefs have to originate somewhere, as does your lack of it. Nothing can be gained from aruging origins.
You're using it wrong. That fallacy has to do with using an outdated definition of a word. It has nothing to do with what the discussion of your original Theistic experience is about.
Pray To Jesus
Diamond Member
- Mar 14, 2011
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- 0
- 0
sandorski
No Lifer
- Oct 10, 1999
- 70,768
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Upon further investigation, I seem to have misunderstood the fallacy. However, I really don't see how he is using that fallacy. He has been simply pointing out that Children usually adopt the position of their parents in regards to this issue. That is simply a fact.
He's stating the obvious. Saying I'm a Christian because my parents were does nothing to address the veracity of my beliefs, which I though he wanted to discuss.
I bought a chevy because my parents own chevys doesn't tell us whether or not its a good brand of vehicle.
jhbball
Platinum Member
- Mar 20, 2002
- 2,917
- 23
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Sorry Rob, you're using 'genetic fallacy' incorrectly here. I'm not saying 'your parents were Christian, therefore your faith is false'. I simply asked you to provide the reasons you believe your God is the one true god, considering the fact you've never actually considered any of the other religions. You gave the answer 'because God', as expected.
No fallacy found.
Well, if you're not employing the Genetic Fallacy, they why even mention the origins of my beliefs?
Mentioning my parents' beliefs then, and the fact I was "born in the United States" was pointless then, right?
For what reason? So that you can compare them to Islam's and tell me that's why that isn't evidence?
Your cover is blown.
JEDIYoda
Lifer
- Jul 13, 2005
- 33,986
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http://www.believers.org/argue.htm
Arguing With Atheists
I find it hard to comprehend how an atheist can look at all the evidence I see for God and the Bible and not be converted.
At the same time, the atheist looks at his evidence and cannot comprehend how I could believe in God and the Bible.
How can this be?
It is not because one of us is stupid and the other intelligent. Nor is it because only one of us accepts some things "by faith" -- we both do that -- because our knowledge is limited.
The explanation is that the atheist is like a color-blind person looking at a rainbow -- he just does not see it all -- even though he looks at it and thinks he sees it. This is exactly what the Bible says happens.
2 CORINTHIANS 4:3-4 NKJ
3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing,
4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.
Argument and logic will never convince any color-blind person of the beauties of the rainbow. If we truly want others to embrace the Truth we must use spiritual weapons to free them -- not just human logic.
Proof?
No one can prove that God does not exist. And no one (but God Himself) can prove that God does exist.
The best that either side of this question can do is to present evidence supporting their position.
As someone who truly believes in the existence of God, I see overwhelming evidence that God exists -- and that the Bible is true.
Perspective makes a big difference. One person looks at a glass as half full -- another sees it as half empty.
Some people already know everything -- and refuse to listen to anything. When people choose to focus only on certain questions to the exclusion of all others -- they can believe almost anything they want to believe.
Some people say it doesn't matter what proof they are shown, they will not believe in God and the Bible because "it is impossible, therefore any evidence that seems to point that direction is flawed."
It is a waste of time to argue with people who think like that.
Why Doesn't God Settle This?
You might be frustrated with God -- thinking that He should have made things clearer so it would be impossible to doubt. (For one possible explanation, please read this.)
Here are some interesting Scriptures concerning people not being able to believe unless God reveals Himself to them : Matthew 11:27, Luke 10:22, John 6:44, John 6:64-65.
Interestingly, after people turned away from Him, Jesus made no effort to change their minds (John 6:66-67).
Obviously, God does not reveal Himself to everyone in the same measure. Does that mean God is unfair? No. Just that He knows people's heart and how they will respond.
God Wants Diligent Seekers
It seems God is not interested in revealing Himself to casual inquirers -- He desires diligent seekers.
HEBREWS 11:6 NKJ
6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
Does It Seem Foolish?
1 CORINTHIANS 2:14 NKJ
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1 CORINTHIANS 1:18-20 NKJ
18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent."
20 Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
1 CORINTHIANS 1:27-29 NKJ
27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty;
28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are,
29 that no flesh should glory in His presence.
PSALM 14:1 NKJ
1 The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, They have done abominable works, There is none who does good.
Does God Want Us To Defend Him?
Mainly, God wants us to be a witness by walking with Him and walking in love toward our fellow-man. (God commanded us to love our neighbors -- but did not command us to convert them.) However, there are scriptures indicating Christians should not leave every question unanswered.
TITUS 1:9-11 NKJ
9 holding fast the faithful word as he has been taught, that he may be able, by sound doctrine, both to exhort and convict those who contradict.
10 For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision,
11 whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole households, teaching things which they ought not, for the sake of dishonest gain.
1 PETER 3:15 NKJ
15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear;
2 CORINTHIANS 5:11 NKJ
11 Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are well known to God, and I also trust are well known in your consciences.
Do Not Quarrel
Never argue with the wrong attitude, or for the wrong motives. Never argue to win, but to help the other person. And never fight.
2 TIMOTHY 2:23-26 NKJ
23 But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife.
24 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient,
25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth,
26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.
1 CORINTHIANS 2:4-5 NKJ
4 And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
5 that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.
Let us all, who claim to be followers of Christ, show His love -- even to those who claim to be His enemies. Let us give them a demonstration of the power of God through His Holy Spirit.
Jesus Christ Must Be Our Focus
Jesus perfectly showed what God is like (John 14:7). Before Jesus Christ came to earth, we had a very incomplete picture of what God was really like (John 1:17-18).
As should be obvious from its name, the Old Testament gives a very incomplete picture -- apart from the New Testament. Explaining every question raised about God's character from the Old Testament is fruitless. Jesus gives us the true, clear picture of God's character.
Our focus should be Jesus Christ. No one can honestly fault Him. He is alive, and will soon return, and can deal with these arguers Himself.
Arguing With Atheists
I find it hard to comprehend how an atheist can look at all the evidence I see for God and the Bible and not be converted.
At the same time, the atheist looks at his evidence and cannot comprehend how I could believe in God and the Bible.
How can this be?
It is not because one of us is stupid and the other intelligent. Nor is it because only one of us accepts some things "by faith" -- we both do that -- because our knowledge is limited.
The explanation is that the atheist is like a color-blind person looking at a rainbow -- he just does not see it all -- even though he looks at it and thinks he sees it. This is exactly what the Bible says happens.
2 CORINTHIANS 4:3-4 NKJ
3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing,
4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.
Argument and logic will never convince any color-blind person of the beauties of the rainbow. If we truly want others to embrace the Truth we must use spiritual weapons to free them -- not just human logic.
Proof?
No one can prove that God does not exist. And no one (but God Himself) can prove that God does exist.
The best that either side of this question can do is to present evidence supporting their position.
As someone who truly believes in the existence of God, I see overwhelming evidence that God exists -- and that the Bible is true.
Perspective makes a big difference. One person looks at a glass as half full -- another sees it as half empty.
Some people already know everything -- and refuse to listen to anything. When people choose to focus only on certain questions to the exclusion of all others -- they can believe almost anything they want to believe.
Some people say it doesn't matter what proof they are shown, they will not believe in God and the Bible because "it is impossible, therefore any evidence that seems to point that direction is flawed."
It is a waste of time to argue with people who think like that.
Why Doesn't God Settle This?
You might be frustrated with God -- thinking that He should have made things clearer so it would be impossible to doubt. (For one possible explanation, please read this.)
Here are some interesting Scriptures concerning people not being able to believe unless God reveals Himself to them : Matthew 11:27, Luke 10:22, John 6:44, John 6:64-65.
Interestingly, after people turned away from Him, Jesus made no effort to change their minds (John 6:66-67).
Obviously, God does not reveal Himself to everyone in the same measure. Does that mean God is unfair? No. Just that He knows people's heart and how they will respond.
God Wants Diligent Seekers
It seems God is not interested in revealing Himself to casual inquirers -- He desires diligent seekers.
HEBREWS 11:6 NKJ
6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
Does It Seem Foolish?
1 CORINTHIANS 2:14 NKJ
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1 CORINTHIANS 1:18-20 NKJ
18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent."
20 Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
1 CORINTHIANS 1:27-29 NKJ
27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty;
28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are,
29 that no flesh should glory in His presence.
PSALM 14:1 NKJ
1 The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, They have done abominable works, There is none who does good.
Does God Want Us To Defend Him?
Mainly, God wants us to be a witness by walking with Him and walking in love toward our fellow-man. (God commanded us to love our neighbors -- but did not command us to convert them.) However, there are scriptures indicating Christians should not leave every question unanswered.
TITUS 1:9-11 NKJ
9 holding fast the faithful word as he has been taught, that he may be able, by sound doctrine, both to exhort and convict those who contradict.
10 For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision,
11 whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole households, teaching things which they ought not, for the sake of dishonest gain.
1 PETER 3:15 NKJ
15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear;
2 CORINTHIANS 5:11 NKJ
11 Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are well known to God, and I also trust are well known in your consciences.
Do Not Quarrel
Never argue with the wrong attitude, or for the wrong motives. Never argue to win, but to help the other person. And never fight.
2 TIMOTHY 2:23-26 NKJ
23 But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife.
24 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient,
25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth,
26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.
1 CORINTHIANS 2:4-5 NKJ
4 And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
5 that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.
Let us all, who claim to be followers of Christ, show His love -- even to those who claim to be His enemies. Let us give them a demonstration of the power of God through His Holy Spirit.
Jesus Christ Must Be Our Focus
Jesus perfectly showed what God is like (John 14:7). Before Jesus Christ came to earth, we had a very incomplete picture of what God was really like (John 1:17-18).
As should be obvious from its name, the Old Testament gives a very incomplete picture -- apart from the New Testament. Explaining every question raised about God's character from the Old Testament is fruitless. Jesus gives us the true, clear picture of God's character.
Our focus should be Jesus Christ. No one can honestly fault Him. He is alive, and will soon return, and can deal with these arguers Himself.
sandorski
No Lifer
- Oct 10, 1999
- 70,768
- 6,336
- 126
JEDIYoda
Lifer
- Jul 13, 2005
- 33,986
- 3,321
- 126
that's why I refuse to even discuss the topic with any of you......
You can`t have a discussion where one side makes the rules.
You also cannot have a discussion where no matter what is said the other side will not agree..or as in your case just dismisses things as baseless!
Jesus Loves you!!
dphantom
Diamond Member
- Jan 14, 2005
- 4,763
- 327
- 126
Says the man who does not acknowledge his own faith.
You are loved even though you reject Jesus.Yeah, he answered too freaking quickly so I know he didn't read any of it.
Just bolded something he already had his mind made up about.
Incredulity is strong in Sandorski. But we'll probably get his drivel about him being religious and already having rejected everything you posted years ago, furthering the pointlessness in his participation in this thread.
sandorski
No Lifer
- Oct 10, 1999
- 70,768
- 6,336
- 126
No, you are correct such a discussion can't take place. That's why I use the rules accepted by almost everyone, including yourself.
Do you reject the Koran or the Bhagavad Gita? Do you believe in Allah as described by Mohammed or Krishna?
sandorski
No Lifer
- Oct 10, 1999
- 70,768
- 6,336
- 126
At least I know you have a memory. That's all true, btw, I didn't lie nor exaggerate.
sandorski
No Lifer
- Oct 10, 1999
- 70,768
- 6,336
- 126
Says the man who does not acknowledge his own faith.
What faith?
sandorski
No Lifer
- Oct 10, 1999
- 70,768
- 6,336
- 126
sandorski
No Lifer
- Oct 10, 1999
- 70,768
- 6,336
- 126
The Bible is not inerrant. A god, as Christians propose, would not write or inspire such a book and expect it to be compelling.
dphantom
Diamond Member
- Jan 14, 2005
- 4,763
- 327
- 126
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