A case for religion, and against AA.

[Retro Rob]

That fact we cant find any evidence of his existence is also the evidence to disprove god. The lack of evidence in this case is the evidence.

What do you mean "find"? Has science ever looked for evidence of God? How can you expect to find something you never looked for?

 

[Zargon]

The problem is that most religious people don't care and don't want to hear about modern physics (eg. big bang, relativity, quantum mechanics and string theory) and they have not worked in a lab and seen evolution at work in bacteria. This is the "superior evidence".

look more hogwash!

I am thoroughly unconvinced of the existence of god, my mother is a minister and thus I grew up in a church.

however, many friends and family I have believe, including some with PhD's in ChemE from MIT, and a Dr in Physics that works on early detection radar for the DoD

most of the church my mother is a minister at are academics at rather large research university, so lets stop perpetuating that 'only idiots and non-science people' believe in god

its a condition that crosses all levels of society, race, ethnicity, economics, ETC

Some considered the greatest minds of their times were beleivers in a GOD.

Even Tesla(raised by a priest) repsected religion and the theory of god.

a lot of ideas fall into the reason for this thread

 

[soulcougher73]

What do you mean "find"? Has science ever looked for evidence of God? How can you expect to find something you never looked for?

Im sure every person that has been exposed to religion or knows of it has looked for god. The god myth just doesnt make sense with what is known and perceived in the real world.

I mean why play so hard to find when you want people to believe/worship you? Some 2000+ year old book isnt going to cut it when the stories make no logical sense with what is known of how the world/universe works.

 

[Retro Rob]

Im sure every person that has been exposed to religion or knows of it has looked for god.

That's not what I asked. You claim that there is no evidence. I asked a very specific question: "has science ever looked for God?".

I mean why play so hard to find when you want people to believe/worship you? Some 2000+ year old book isnt going to cut it when the stories make no logical sense with what is known of how the world/universe works.

The Bible doesn't explain how the Universe works, so how is it making illogical stories about it?

Secondly, of course the stories about what happened makes no sense to you because it violates regularities....that's why he's called "God", and why those stories are called "miracles".

If the stories in the Bible never violated natrual law, then it cannot be claimed to be a book from God. The whole point of those stories being in there is so that people can recognize a Divine being/intervention. God deliberately did them in that manner to differentiate between what's natrual and what's divine so that people could make a distinction.

I don't see why this is so hard to understand.

 

[JD50]

Because God is involved. That's the difference. With God, all things are possible.

Whether you believe God exists or lack that belief, that explains why we believe things like that. In order for us to know God was involved, those things had to defy natural law and human capability.

I'm shocked that many who claim they "used" to be believers fail to grasp these fundamentals.

LOL, of course, "because God." Maybe God made SlowSpyder out of pasta.

The problem is when people use these "miracles" to prove the existence of god.

 

[bunnyfubbles]

Like?

psychological blinders; its a pretty powerful tool to be convinced that you're really an immortal spirit temporarily trapped in a weak, meatbag body

 

[dphantom]

He can see God because God lives within him. Anyone who has "faith" in God because someone told him to is indeed simple-minded and I would highly question this "faith"....so you're framing this wrongly in my opinion. What you don't seem to understand is that faith comes from a deeply personal relationship with our creator which is evidence that's impossible to ignore. The kind of rational evidence you seem to want doesn't exist....however the spiritual evidence you actually need does. You are not the center of this universe as your ego would have you believe, God is the center of this universe and when your ego dies to this truth then you will know to the very depth of your soul what faith actually means. Surrender is incredibly difficult as our egos hold the lie dear. This may sound like mumbo-jumbo to you but I thought it was worth saying on the outside chance that you're actually open to attempting to understand something that's relatively common in our society but obviously completely foreign to you. I'm sure others more articulate than myself can explain this better...but I thought I'd give it a shot.

Very nicely articulated. Thank you.

 

[OverVolt]

The problem is that most religious people don't care and don't want to hear about modern physics (eg. big bang, relativity, quantum mechanics and string theory) and they have not worked in a lab and seen evolution at work in bacteria. This is the "superior evidence".

look more hogwash!

I am thoroughly unconvinced of the existence of god, my mother is a minister and thus I grew up in a church.

however, many friends and family I have believe, including some with PhD's in ChemE from MIT, and a Dr in Physics that works on early detection radar for the DoD

most of the church my mother is a minister at are academics at rather large research university, so lets stop perpetuating that 'only idiots and non-science people' believe in god

its a condition that crosses all levels of society, race, ethnicity, economics, ETC

Some considered the greatest minds of their times were beleivers in a GOD.

Even Tesla(raised by a priest) repsected religion and the theory of god.

a lot of ideas fall into the reason for this thread

Looks like atheists can be just as ignorant as anyone else. This is something I've noticed too. There isn't a whole lot of conflict between REAL academics and religion. Which is why as soon as someone says something like this I know they are actually more ignorant than the people they are bashing.

I'm also assuming atheists aren't too keen on accepting new ideas and would rather just make fun of other peoples ideas out of their own ignorance. Carry on ignoramuses.

Its really ironic that Atheists pretend to be educated but they likely don't know the meaning of that word either.

 

[OverVolt]

That's not what I asked. You claim that there is no evidence. I asked a very specific question: "has science ever looked for God?".



The Bible doesn't explain how the Universe works, so how is it making illogical stories about it?

Secondly, of course the stories about what happened makes no sense to you because it violates regularities....that's why he's called "God", and why those stories are called "miracles".

If the stories in the Bible never violated natrual law, then it cannot be claimed to be a book from God. The whole point of those stories being in there is so that people can recognize a Divine being/intervention. God deliberately did them in that manner to differentiate between what's natrual and what's divine so that people could make a distinction.

I don't see why this is so hard to understand.

Real science doesn't search for god, so I'm not sure what kind of psuedo-science crap the atheists have built their beliefs around.

 

[OverVolt]

No, absolutely not.

As an example, what if I said I have no organs, bones, blood, etc., my body is filled with delicious pasta but yet I live? I am not going to provide any evidence of this extraordinary claim. Anyone who thinks about this for a few seconds realizes that this goes against the natural order of how the universe works. And all the evidence points to the fact that I do have a normal body, I have had to wear casts, have taken medication that works, etc.

So now my only ridiculous position to take is telling you that you are not able to disprove that I don't have pasta in place of normal human parts, or to admit maybe I'm wrong.

This is the position some of you of faith are taking... that these ridiculous claims can't be unproven, so therefore you're just as right as an atheist. Your claims are the ones that go against the natural order of everything we know. The burden is on the faithful to provide evidence that jesus was the son of god, that he performed miracles that cannot otherwise be explained, etc. etc. The burden of proof is on the faithful to prove that their religion is the right one, that mohammad is allah's prophet, that jesus is god's divine son, etc.

Just the fact that the universe exists and literally no one knows why or how = some kind of creator must exist. Something like the big bang doesn't even begin to cover the why or how of what is going on with the universe or why we were so lucky to be on the planet we are on.

We wouldn't exists if it weren't for every minutiae of physics, science, chemistry, etc.

If there were no carbon, we wouldn't exist. Carbon is plentiful in the universe, why? Its because when you fuse hydrogen you get helium. When the hydrogen runs out and the star is hot enough, it produces helium. When it runs out of helium, and the star is hot enough, it produces oxygen and carbon by fusion. When those get depleted, the bigger and hotter stars produce iron.

Once enough iron is created the gravitational force becomes so great at the center of the star that the electrons under such great pressure, overcome the small nuclear force and crash into the nucleus/protons

The resulting explosion, happening at only one atom at first, increased the pressure within the star setting off nearby iron atoms. The star goes supernovae and the explosion is so intense it creates the small amounts of trace heavy elements that exist today. Uranium, Tin, gold, Mercury, etc.

Thats just one system within the universe that interacts that way. If gravity were any weaker or any stronger, it probably wouldn't work quote right. If electrons and protons were any different, it probably wouldn't quote right. If the small nuclear force were any different, it probably wouldn't work quote right.

So I guess believing in a creator is just being thankful for the literally quintillions of things you owe your existence to. Its unfathomable how lucky we are. We can describe atoms just fine or any other sciencey thing but we aren't even close to having a "theory of everything" of how it all fits together.

 

[SMOGZINN]

So I guess believing in a creator is just being thankful for the literally quintillions of things you owe your existence to. Its unfathomable how lucky we are. We can describe atoms just fine or any other sciencey thing but we aren't even close to having a "theory of everything" of how it all fits together.

Who made this god? How lucky is he that all the things are just right for him to exist! HE must have a creator!

 

[SlowSpyder]

Just the fact that the universe exists and literally no one knows why or how = some kind of creator must exist. Something like the big bang doesn't even begin to cover the why or how of what is going on with the universe or why we were so lucky to be on the planet we are on.

We wouldn't exists if it weren't for every minutiae of physics, science, chemistry, etc.

If there were no carbon, we wouldn't exist. Carbon is plentiful in the universe, why? Its because when you fuse hydrogen you get helium. When the hydrogen runs out and the star is hot enough, it produces helium. When it runs out of helium, and the star is hot enough, it produces oxygen and carbon by fusion. When those get depleted, the bigger and hotter stars produce iron.

Once enough iron is created the gravitational force becomes so great at the center of the star that the electrons under such great pressure, overcome the small nuclear force and crash into the nucleus/protons

The resulting explosion, happening at only one atom at first, increased the pressure within the star setting off nearby iron atoms. The star goes supernovae and the explosion is so intense it creates the small amounts of trace heavy elements that exist today. Uranium, Tin, gold, Mercury, etc.

Thats just one system within the universe that interacts that way. If gravity were any weaker or any stronger, it probably wouldn't work quote right. If electrons and protons were any different, it probably wouldn't quote right. If the small nuclear force were any different, it probably wouldn't work quote right.

So I guess believing in a creator is just being thankful for the literally quintillions of things you owe your existence to. Its unfathomable how lucky we are. We can describe atoms just fine or any other sciencey thing but we aren't even close to having a "theory of everything" of how it all fits together.

Explain to me how the universe existing and our current lack of knowledge of why or how we came into being equates to a god. I don't see a 'must be' type of connection. Neil deGrasse Tyson can explain another reason better than I can word it, just a short video (really just 1:00 - 2:30) -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HooeZrC76s0

I think you're looking at things through a much too human-centric view. What we are as life adapted to the livable conditions on this planet. Do you believe this whole giant universe was created so jesus/god could judge sin every time a life form somewhere touched itself?

 

[moonbogg]

Do you believe this whole giant universe was created so jesus/god could judge sin every time a life form somewhere touched itself?

I got a few more to add:

DONT EAT PORK
DONT EAT SHELL FISH
DONT DRINK BLOOD (but drink mine later)
DON'T EAT CERTAIN BIRDS
DONT WEAR TORN CLOTHES
WEAR NO LINEN MIXED WITH WOOLLEN GARMENTS
DON'T CUT YOUR HAIR
DON'T CUT YOUR BEARD
NO MARKS ON SKIN
DO NOT SOW YOUR FIELD WITH MIXED SEED

Only to say later in the new testament, "JUST KIDDING!".

 

[OverVolt]

Explain to me how the universe existing and our current lack of knowledge of why or how we came into being equates to a god. I don't see a 'must be' type of connection. Neil deGrasse Tyson can explain another reason better than I can word it, just a short video (really just 1:00 - 2:30) -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HooeZrC76s0

I think you're looking at things through a much too human-centric view. What we are as life adapted to the livable conditions on this planet. Do you believe this whole giant universe was created so jesus/god could judge sin every time a life form somewhere touched itself?

"God is an ever-receding pocket of scientific ignorance, that's getting smaller and smaller and smaller as time goes on."

I really don't think this is true. I don't think we'll ever be able to observe enough given our position. There is likely much, much more going on outside our observable sphere. I don't know where people get ideas like that. Its not even based on science, but the fact that we can only observe so much and have no idea what is beyond it is based on science.

Its really just the question of "why" and how much of the "how" we don't know. Thats the whole point, we could just as easily not exist and I don't think the universe would care. Its a rather mechanical, prescribed, deterministic, and cold place.

That is what makes life so unique and precious. But with life also comes suffering. Evolution is by trial and error and its not a pretty process. Disease, poor health, pestilence, hostile environments, greed vs cooperation etc. We owe our existence really to all those who are suffering. All the 99% of the extinct species who suffered did so such that life knew what not to do. Hence all the religious focus on helping those who are suffering.

 

[OverVolt]

I got a few more to add:

DONT EAT PORK
DONT EAT SHELL FISH
DONT DRINK BLOOD (but drink mine later)
DON'T EAT CERTAIN BIRDS
DONT WEAR TORN CLOTHES
WEAR NO LINEN MIXED WITH WOOLLEN GARMENTS
DON'T CUT YOUR HAIR
DON'T CUT YOUR BEARD
NO MARKS ON SKIN
DO NOT SOW YOUR FIELD WITH MIXED SEED

Only to say later in the new testament, "JUST KIDDING!".

Yea don't eat pork because they will eat just about anything. In ancient times they were likely a vector for contamination. Pork tends to carry alot of pathogens if cared for improperly. Its moot now with regulations and proper feed but had a time and place where it probably saved lives.

Don't eat shellfish because they likely made people sick more frequently in the past without modern cooking tech and sanitary handling before people knew to cook to 160F or had thermometers for that matter.

Don't eat certain birds, maybe they were vectors for stuff like the bird flu before people even knew pathogens existed.

Don't have sex before marriage which made alot more sense before birth control because it would fuck your whole life up.

You mean wisdom like that? How dare they try and manipulate people into not screwing themselves over. Sometimes they got it wrong, sometimes they got it right. Sometimes they got it right and then things changed. But still. The intent is to elevate humans out of suffering. Dick. Religion has done far more good than Atheism ever will.

They drink his blood symbolically, but I would imagine a diet of blood is not good for you. Before they even knew about pathogens, you'd likely get hepatitis. How do you explain to people who don't even know what a pathogen is not to drink blood or they will get a symptom-less fatal disease? HIV, Hepatitis, etc.

Has this type of stuff never occurred to you or what? Religion is just as much about fighting ignorance as education and college and science. They're both on the same side. The only reason atheists even attack religion is out of ignorance in the first place.

I honestly think science is fairly dangerous because once you invent something just for the sake of inventing it, the pandora's box is open, the knowledge has been gained, for good or evil. For example nuclear weapons vs nuclear power. You don't see religious people going "nah nah religion might have caused wars but science obliterated cities and gave us the ability to obliterate ourselves"

 

[dphantom]

I got a few more to add:

DONT EAT PORK
DONT EAT SHELL FISH
DONT DRINK BLOOD (but drink mine later)
DON'T EAT CERTAIN BIRDS
DONT WEAR TORN CLOTHES
WEAR NO LINEN MIXED WITH WOOLLEN GARMENTS
DON'T CUT YOUR HAIR
DON'T CUT YOUR BEARD
NO MARKS ON SKIN
DO NOT SOW YOUR FIELD WITH MIXED SEED

Only to say later in the new testament, "JUST KIDDING!".

Not exactly. Acts 10:9-15 describes what can be eaten now. The reason for the change is because Jesus died for us thus revoking the law and placing us under the Dispensation of Grace.

 

[moonbogg]

I'd say they got a lot more wrong than they did right, lol. This was supposed to be words from God, so don't make excuses. Why not wear torn clothes or mixed materials? If you are trying to argue that the bible is a great pearl of wisdom, I'm afraid that calling me a dick won't get you very close.
Also, why do you think Atheism is a thing? As if it has goals or something. That's ridiculous.

OverVolt, let me simply ask you a question. Do you actually think that the creator of the universe provided instructions about what we should eat? Is it true or untrue?

 

[moonbogg]

Not exactly. Acts 10:9-15 describes what can be eaten now. The reason for the change is because Jesus died for us thus revoking the law and placing us under the Dispensation of Grace.

I'm glad that the creator of the universe has made it clear as to what I am to eat and not eat. Thanks.

 

[OverVolt]

I'd say they got a lot more wrong than they did right, lol. This was supposed to be words from God, so don't make excuses. Why not wear torn clothes or mixed materials? If you are trying to argue that the bible is a great pearl of wisdom, I'm afraid that calling me a dick won't get you very close.
Also, why do you think Atheism is a thing? As if it has goals or something. That's ridiculous.

Well atheists like to say "religion caused the crusades and causes more harm than good" but I don't agree.

I really don't think they got more wrong than they got right. If they were wrong for so many thousands of years we'd be much worse off than we are right now. You're just nitpicking. I don't know why. I'm talking about fundamental pillars of society. Marriage, morals, caring for the sick, etc. I don't sweat the inconsistencies and just take away the main message.

 

[moonbogg]

Well atheists like to say "religion caused the crusades and causes more harm than good" but I don't agree.

I really don't think they got more wrong than they got right. If they were wrong for so many thousands of years we'd be much worse off than we are right now. You're just nitpicking. I don't know why. I'm talking about fundamental pillars of society. Marriage, morals, caring for the sick, etc. I don't sweat the inconsistencies and just take away the main message.

My point was that the bible wasn't written or dictated by god. You are talking about the value of religion in society. It sounds like we have been arguing about unrelated topics, lol. Kinda silly.
Also, I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't think religion caused anything. People do what they do. Religion being the motivation for killings is just a symptom of the problem.

 

[OverVolt]

I'd say they got a lot more wrong than they did right, lol. This was supposed to be words from God, so don't make excuses. Why not wear torn clothes or mixed materials? If you are trying to argue that the bible is a great pearl of wisdom, I'm afraid that calling me a dick won't get you very close.
Also, why do you think Atheism is a thing? As if it has goals or something. That's ridiculous.

OverVolt, let me simply ask you a question. Do you actually think that the creator of the universe provided instructions about what we should eat? Is it true or untrue?

Realistically no he didn't provide instructions. Someone back then likely did hit on to something no one back then would understand. Religion was the education institution at the time.

I still believe in god and I still believe in the catholic/christian faith. I'm not getting hung up on what I see as the little stuff. Fact is religious people are happier. It gives you more of a purpose in life. They get so much more right than they get wrong. I do take what I learned when I was younger and make it fit modern life. Wasn't that the point? Where did the Atheists all miss the boat. I don't get it.

 

[moonbogg]

Realistically no he didn't provide instructions. Someone back then likely did hit on to something no one back then would understand. Religion was the education institution at the time.

I still believe in god and I still believe in the catholic/christian faith. I'm not getting hung up on what I see as the little stuff. Fact is religious people are happier. It gives you more of a purpose in life. They get so much more right than they get wrong. I do take what I learned when I was younger and make it fit modern life. Wasn't that the point? Where did the Atheists all miss the boat. I don't get it.

Well, that's all well and good. I see your happiness statement as sort of a blanket statement and I understand where you are coming from there. Now that I am on the other side I see things differently than you do. I can make a comparison between my happiness as a Christian and my happiness as an atheist. Know what? By and large there isn't much difference. Being religious had certain benefits regarding happiness and being atheist also has distinct benefits regarding happiness.
I have atheist friends and Christian friends and their happiness seems to have much more to do with other factors, as one might expect.
Also, the devil is in the details of the faith. When certain details fail to make sense, then more and more will unravel. If you are left with a general belief in god, then you are either deist or a general theist, but not Christian.

 

[JD50]

Realistically no he didn't provide instructions. Someone back then likely did hit on to something no one back then would understand. Religion was the education institution at the time.

I still believe in god and I still believe in the catholic/christian faith. I'm not getting hung up on what I see as the little stuff. Fact is religious people are happier. It gives you more of a purpose in life. They get so much more right than they get wrong. I do take what I learned when I was younger and make it fit modern life. Wasn't that the point? Where did the Atheists all miss the boat. I don't get it.

Complete nonsense.

 

[JD50]

Well, that's all well and good. I see your happiness statement as sort of a blanket statement and I understand where you are coming from there. Now that I am on the other side I see things differently than you do. I can make a comparison between my happiness as a Christian and my happiness as an atheist. Know what? By and large there isn't much difference. Being religious had certain benefits regarding happiness and being atheist also has distinct benefits regarding happiness.
I have atheist friends and Christian friends and their happiness seems to have much more to do with other factors, as one might expect.

:thumbsup:

 

[sandorski]

Just the fact that the universe exists and literally no one knows why or how = some kind of creator must exist. Something like the big bang doesn't even begin to cover the why or how of what is going on with the universe or why we were so lucky to be on the planet we are on.

....

This is like the ultimate God of the Gaps argument.