A case for religion, and against AA.

[Pray To Jesus]

The Christian god is perfectly unjust. He punishes eternally for finite crime. Good thing he is just made up.
Justice is up to us. You can't expect an imaginary god to take care of all your problems for you after you die. Justice is about human solutions for human problems.

A crime against God, an infinite being, is a crime that requires infinite punishment.

 

[Victorian Gray]

You don`t answer a question with a question.....
Is a child sinless......should be simple enough....
You claim to have been a former pastor....are we born with a sin nature? Therefore is a child sinless?

Depends on which Christian sect you're dealing with.

Here's one of many different answers:

http://oakridgechurch.com/riggs/ori-sin.htm

 

[sandorski]

A crime against God, an infinite being, is a crime that requires infinite punishment.

lol

 

[JEDIYoda]

Depends on which Christian sect you're dealing with. -- not true......
I was addressing myself to thinClient......
Here's one of many different answers:

http://oakridgechurch.com/riggs/ori-sin.htm

First of all ,my responses were aimed at ThinClient.....unless you are ThinClient using another alias....

 

[IronWing]

lol

Infinite being is a rather interesting construct. Can a person sew a sock puppet so long that their fingers won't reach the mouth?

 

[PowerEngineer]

Late to the discussion, but to answer the OP's question:

"As long as he doesn't try to harm anyone including himself, what's the harm in him believing nonsense?"

The harm is that by giving the child incorrect information, he will eventually end up harming someone unintentionally in a matter that could have been avoided. That belief in nonsense does not stay confined to privately held beliefs that are never acted on. It gets into everything by it's very nature - anything offering values on the scope of a religion has to, else it loses all it's value.

Which means it gets into every part of their lives, and causes them to make decisions based on incorrect information. There are examples of this to be found everywhere. For a most straightforward example, take Christian Science's belief in healing through prayer, and not medication. This has resulted in children dying from treatable illnesses. In this case, the parents certainly did not intend to harm their child - quite the opposite. But because their understanding of the world was flawed, their intentions did not matter - their children came to harm.

That's the big problem. Religion, by it's very nature claims the entire world as it's scope of authority. Which means if you accept nonsense in it, that nonsense gets into everything. And then harm is going to be done, intentional or otherwise, simply because no one can make a wise decision based on nonsense.

Pretty much what I’ve been thinking.

Good answer, thanks for contributing.

But your model of a child sounds more like a notepad app on your smartphone or PC than an actual human being. As if it's going to just take in all the information given to it and not think on it's own.

I wish you were right, but few people stop to rethink/relearn everything they were taught as children at the point they become an adult. As an obvious example, just look at the tendency for children to stay with the religion of their parents through adulthood.

Really? He WILL end up harming someone? I find that hard to believe. There has been a lot of misinformed people throughout history that have not gone on to harm people. Most people, maybe even all people are misinformed about a lot of topics. Misinformation is prevalent, and yet people live fulfilling lives despite it. Especially if it's temporary. which it always is. Speaking of temporary...

Regardless of how “fulfilling” their lives may have been in your opinion, you can’t claim that being misinformed hasn’t caused harm “throughout history”! An obvious example is misinformation about the cause of disease (e.g. “bad air” or “vapors” rather than bacteria). The victims of the black plague would certainly have had longer “fulfilling” lives if they had known that the rats were spreading the disease. With the limits of what we know today, we are doubtlessly doing harm to ourselves because of unavoidable ignorance. It’s mind boggling to some of us that we should do more harm by embracing avoidable ignorance.

Isn't this just an example of natural selection at work? What is wrong with that? It's natural. It's how nature works. For a most straightforward example of how nature doesn't work there is always Mars. If you don't like nature you might like to visit there. I hear the martian rover is ronery these days.

While it may be harmful to put a child at risk of illness without medication, remember in my post which you quoted I said "as long is it isn't harming anyone". In a case where it is harming someone, I believe it is wrong and should be unlawful.

They that spread this misinformation or fiction as truth also serve the purpose of leading by example. Example of what not to do. You are benefiting from them by learning from their mistakes. As per your example they withhold medication or immunization, you see the outcome and you learn not to make that mistake.

The problem with your glib answer is that it only works if there is a general consensus about all the mistaken beliefs that might cause harm to someone else. IMHO “natural selection” is not a satisfying answer to sole reliance on healing through prayer, however I am realistic enough to know that beliefs like this (or like those of the anti-vaccination zealots) will never be completely outlawed. Parental ignorance will continue to harm children; we can only hope that education can reduce its toll.

My point is, it isn't always harmful to believe in fiction for a little while. It also isn't permanent. People can think for themselves. They can learn and grow.

The intention of my OP was to squelch the noise from bickering and infighting, anger and vitriol which hinders the dissemination of knowledge.

If you know that something is a fiction, you never really believe in it. Believing in something that is untrue isn’t always harmful, however it very often is. This is particularly true when the mistaken belief is a factor in your decision making. As part of society, your decision making often affects others around you. I suggest this is why both the believers and non-believers are sometimes “angry” about what the other side has to say.

First of all ,my responses were aimed at ThinClient.....unless you are ThinClient using another alias....

If you want only ThinClient to answer your question, then I suggest you send him a PM. Posting in a thread like this is an open invitation to everyone for their comments.

 

[JEDIYoda]

If you want only ThinClient to answer your question, then I suggest you send him a PM. Posting in a thread like this is an open invitation to everyone for their comments.

bla bla bla.....tell us something we don`t know....

Its interesting how people cannot understand a dialogue between 2 people in an open form...bla bla bla

 

[Onceler]

A crime against God, an infinite being, is a crime that requires infinite punishment.

There is only one (infinite) unforgivable sin.

 

[ThinClient]

A crime against God, an infinite being, is a crime that requires infinite punishment.

Not if that being has no evidence that they even exist in the first place.

 

[Pray To Jesus]

few people stop to rethink/relearn everything they were taught as children at the point they become an adult. As an obvious example, just look at the tendency for children to stay with the religion of their parents through adulthood.

My parents are nontheists. I spent my youth not knowing religion. Most of the things I learned about religion, I did by reading about the details on my own.

When I was ~15 years old I started to explore Buddhism. I was a Buddhist for 10+ years. I switched from Buddhism to Christianity at 25 when God called me to Jesus. I haven't joined any Church so I am non-denominational.

I learned about Jesus by myself reading the Bible and from other resources.

When I first told my family about how God called me and that I became a Christian, they mistakenly thought I was going to be a Catholic. My family and extended family don't like Catholicism. I didn't know that at the time or for a long time afterwards, but I know now.

My aunt was adament in trying to convince me to not do any Catholic rituals. I didn't know much about Christianity the religion. I just knew about Jesus Christ. My parents had to explain to my aunt that I wasn't going to be a Catholic in order to calm her down.

LoL.

 

[ThinClient]

There is only one (infinite) unforgivable sin.

How is that? The Bible very clearly says that all sins are forgiven.

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

Micah 7:18-19
Who is a God like you, who pardons sin and forgives the transgression of the remnant of his inheritance? You do not stay angry forever but delight to show mercy. You will again have compassion on us; you will tread our sins underfoot and hurl all our iniquities into the depths of the sea.

Mark 3:28
“Truly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the children of man, and whatever blasphemies they utter,




hmm, I wonder what sin won't be forgiven even though all sins are to be forgiven?

The verse Shaun refers to is found in Mark 3:29 - But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin. (NIV) (Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is also referenced in Matthew 12:31-32 and Luke 12:10).



So which is it? The Bible is clearly contradicting itself here by saying there is a sin that cannot be forgiven AND that all sins will be forgiven.

:whiste:

 

[ThinClient]

My parents are nontheists. I spent my youth not knowing religion. Most of the things I learned about religion I did by reading about the details on my own.

Why is this in obnoxiously huge print?

 

[IronWing]

There is only one (infinite) unforgivable sin.

I agree. One can't take back the failure to use turn signals.

 

[Onceler]

How is that? The Bible very clearly says that all sins are forgiven.

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

Micah 7:18-19
Who is a God like you, who pardons sin and forgives the transgression of the remnant of his inheritance? You do not stay angry forever but delight to show mercy. You will again have compassion on us; you will tread our sins underfoot and hurl all our iniquities into the depths of the sea.

Mark 3:28
“Truly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the children of man, and whatever blasphemies they utter,




hmm, I wonder what sin won't be forgiven even though all sins are to be forgiven?

The verse Shaun refers to is found in Mark 3:29 - But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin. (NIV) (Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is also referenced in Matthew 12:31-32 and Luke 12:10).



So which is it? The Bible is clearly contradicting itself here by saying there is a sin that cannot be forgiven AND that all sins will be forgiven.

:whiste:

"All man's sins and blasphemes shall be forgiven him except he who blasphemes the Holy Spirit for his is an eternal sin and cannot be forgiven."
I do happen to believe this part of the bible(not much else though).

 

[Pray To Jesus]

The sin is to reject Jesus Christ (blaspheme the Holy Spirit). That sin cannot be forgiven because you need have faith in Jesus Christ in order for you to be forgiven.

 

[Onceler]

The sin is to reject Jesus Christ (blaspheme the Holy Spirit). That sin cannot be forgiven because you need have faith in Jesus Christ in order for you to be forgiven.

That's bullshit. You reject God every time you do something that your conscious tells you not to do. Rejection is not blasphemy.
I've rejected Christ a lot of times in my life. It is not the same thing.

 

[Pray To Jesus]

That's bullshit. You reject God every time you do something that your conscious tells you not to do. Rejection is not blasphemy.
I've rejected Christ a lot of times in my life. It is not the same thing.

By reject I meant total and absolute rejection of Jesus Christ.

Jesus' statement about the unforgivable sin comes in the context of an attack from the Pharisees:

22 The experts in the law who came down from Jerusalem said, “He is possessed by Beelzebul,” and, “By the ruler of demons he casts out demons.”
​

They recognize that Jesus is doing the work of casting out demons, a good work, but instead of accepting this evidence as testimony about Jesus, they ascribe it to some sort of satanic 'bluff'. This is not totally illogical, it is similar to the line of reasoning Paul uses in 2 Corinthians 11:

14And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds. ESV
​

but it is a distortion of the reality of God's revelation, as hinted in the end of verse 15 quoted above: according to the testimony of scripture evil cannot be hidden indefinitely and it takes an evil unbelieving heart to turn the consistent righteousness and good deeds of Jesus into a mask for evil intent. The Pharisees are ignoring scripture and the normal evidences and signs of a prophet of God: their intent is to condemn Jesus whatever the evidence. This is the unforgivable sin, and it is impossible to convince them of their error because nothing can possibly convince them any more: they are seeing good as evil and evil as good. If, as Jesus asserts, accepting him and his words is the only path to forgiveness, then it is logical that to permanently reject him is "unforgivable".

http://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/4230/what-is-blasphemy-against-the-holy-spirit

 

[Onceler]

Ephesians is full of crap. That's "glorify me" Paul and his ilk.

 

[justoh]

My parents are nontheists. I spent my youth not knowing religion. Most of the things I learned about religion, I did by reading about the details on my own.

When I was ~15 years old I started to explore Buddhism. I was a Buddhist for 10+ years. I switched from Buddhism to Christianity at 25 when God called me to Jesus. I haven't joined any Church so I am non-denominational.

I learned about Jesus by myself reading the Bible and from other resources.

When I first told my family about how God called me and that I became a Christian, they mistakenly thought I was going to be a Catholic. My family and extended family don't like Catholicism. I didn't know that at the time or for a long time afterwards, but I know now.

My aunt was adament in trying to convince me to not do any Catholic rituals. I didn't know much about Christianity the religion. I just knew about Jesus Christ. My parents had to explain to my aunt that I wasn't going to be a Catholic in order to calm her down.

LoL.

This made me angry.

 

[soulcougher73]

My parents are nontheists. I spent my youth not knowing religion. Most of the things I learned about religion, I did by reading about the details on my own.

When I was ~15 years old I started to explore Buddhism. I was a Buddhist for 10+ years. I switched from Buddhism to Christianity at 25 when God called me to Jesus. I haven't joined any Church so I am non-denominational.

I learned about Jesus by myself reading the Bible and from other resources.

When I first told my family about how God called me and that I became a Christian, they mistakenly thought I was going to be a Catholic. My family and extended family don't like Catholicism. I didn't know that at the time or for a long time afterwards, but I know now.

My aunt was adament in trying to convince me to not do any Catholic rituals. I didn't know much about Christianity the religion. I just knew about Jesus Christ. My parents had to explain to my aunt that I wasn't going to be a Catholic in order to calm her down.

LoL.

Can you describe this calling from God? What service does he use? Id guess Verizon since they cover most of the US. Seems the logical choice.

 

[soulcougher73]

How is that? The Bible very clearly says that all sins are forgiven.

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.


:whiste:

Sweet im just going to wait till the end and if im wrong ill just confess my sins to him. Tada?

 

[Zargon]

For one, since both sides form part of the argument, you cant just tell atheists to be nice. The reality is that BOTH sides need to agree to be nice.

In any case, fiction or not, people judge, kill and main for their gods. They discriminate against people who are different in gender, race, sexual orientation, and religion. That creates more hate in this world, not less. Are you okay with your child hating others?

.

its human nature to discriminate, and hate, based on traits they see that aren't like themselves/they don't have experience with, its basic psychology and sociology. not religion. SOME religions and religious people take it to extremes.

No not alcoholics anonymous, angry atheism.

So some atheists believe religion is harmful.

Harmful enough to necessitate stopping at almost nothing to squash it.

They feel that religion is just a bunch of lies, and lying to children is tantamount to child abuse.

I'm not for lying to children, but I want to make the case for religion not being this evil monster, destroyer of lives.

and how many of these people let their kids believe in Santa, the Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy. its just more hypocrisy

 

[dphantom]

Sweet im just going to wait till the end and if im wrong ill just confess my sins to him. Tada?

I am afraid it does not quite work that way. But you already know that.

 

[SMOGZINN]

and how many of these people let their kids believe in Santa, the Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy. its just more hypocrisy

These things are learning experiences. They are practice for developing critical thinking skills.
Children are told that these things are real, but as they gain life experiences they start to realize that what they know of the Santa or the Easter Bunny does not fit into what they know of the world, and so they start to doubt. Many parents create elaborate stories to try and maintain the ruse, but eventually the child’s skepticism wins out and they stop believing.

The Jesus/God myth should be the same thing, but for some reason people keep believing in that one even after they have seen plenty of evidence that it is not real.

 

[dphantom]

These things are learning experiences. They are practice for developing critical thinking skills.
Children are told that these things are real, but as they gain life experiences they start to realize that what they know of the Santa or the Easter Bunny does not fit into what they know of the world, and so they start to doubt. Many parents create elaborate stories to try and maintain the ruse, but eventually the child’s skepticism wins out and they stop believing.

The Jesus/God myth should be the same thing, but for some reason people keep believing in that one even after they have seen plenty of evidence that it is not real.

What evidence do you have that God and Jesus do not exist?