A case for religion, and against AA.

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Mursilis

Diamond Member
Mar 11, 2001
7,756
11
81
If Christians had their way there would be none of those things you just mentioned.

Christians do have their way in this country (according to wikipedia, 73% of US residents self-identify as Christians - that's a pretty solid majority), and we still have all of the things I mentioned. Your statement is clearly false.

Yup only religious people give food to homeless :colbert: I've done it on many occassions. Darn those athiests for being all moral upstanding citizens and shit.

When did I ever say only the religious are charitable? You continue to use strawman arguments.
 

Mursilis

Diamond Member
Mar 11, 2001
7,756
11
81
It doesn't matter what Quakers say, read the Bible. If they said that, they are using some bizzare interpretation, are unaware what it says, or straight out lying to you.

I'll ask the Rev. Jesse Jackson next time I see him if the Bible he preaches supports slavery. Should be interesting. I'll bet the words 'historical context' come up.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,766
6,335
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I'll ask the Rev. Jesse Jackson next time I see him if the Bible he preaches supports slavery. Should be interesting. I'll bet the words 'historical context' come up.

Just read the Bible. It is quite clear on the subject.
 

AViking

Platinum Member
Sep 12, 2013
2,264
1
0
This book is for people in business but I think it's worth a read by everyone in this thread

http://www.amazon.com/Influence-Psyc...aldini+edition

Basically it discusses why we say "yes" and how we are persuaded to make certain decisions even if they are not in our best interests. There's a few examples with respect to religion that I think you would find fascinating.

After all why does anyone do something, buy something, or support something when there is no evidence to support your decision?
 

ThinClient

Diamond Member
Jan 28, 2013
3,977
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Science will give you the means to do so, but religion will give you the reason to do.

Maybe, but you can answer the why question perfectly well without religion at all.

Anyway, which religion? They all claim to be the one true religion, so how do you know the difference? Which one ISN'T lying? Present your evidence.
 

PhatoseAlpha

Platinum Member
Apr 10, 2005
2,131
21
81
Late to the discussion, but to answer the OP's question:

"As long as he doesn't try to harm anyone including himself, what's the harm in him believing nonsense?"

The harm is that by giving the child incorrect information, he will eventually end up harming someone unintentionally in a matter that could have been avoided. That belief in nonsense does not stay confined to privately held beliefs that are never acted on. It gets into everything by it's very nature - anything offering values on the scope of a religion has to, else it loses all it's value.

Which means it gets into every part of their lives, and causes them to make decisions based on incorrect information. There are examples of this to be found everywhere. For a most straightforward example, take Christian Science's belief in healing through prayer, and not medication. This has resulted in children dying from treatable illnesses. In this case, the parents certainly did not intend to harm their child - quite the opposite. But because their understanding of the world was flawed, their intentions did not matter - their children came to harm.

That's the big problem. Religion, by it's very nature claims the entire world as it's scope of authority. Which means if you accept nonsense in it, that nonsense gets into everything. And then harm is going to be done, intentional or otherwise, simply because no one can make a wise decision based on nonsense.
 

Pray To Jesus

Diamond Member
Mar 14, 2011
3,622
0
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If you command someone to do something, then you have some responsibility for their following that command.

If they think you told them, but you didn't, then it's not your fault.

Similar to how it's not sandorski's fault that seeing the word "sandorski" gave someone the impression that it was acceptable to murder and they go and murder in name of sandorski.

So, are you calling all those folks in the Christian bible who claimed that they did the stuff they did because their God told them to liars? Or are the people who wrote it all down the one's who are liars?

Read it again and try to understand using the actual words.

Stop trying to read my mind. You're not Professor X.
 
Nov 29, 2006
15,877
4,430
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Late to the discussion, but to answer the OP's question:

"As long as he doesn't try to harm anyone including himself, what's the harm in him believing nonsense?"

The harm is that by giving the child incorrect information, he will eventually end up harming someone unintentionally in a matter that could have been avoided. That belief in nonsense does not stay confined to privately held beliefs that are never acted on. It gets into everything by it's very nature - anything offering values on the scope of a religion has to, else it loses all it's value.

Which means it gets into every part of their lives, and causes them to make decisions based on incorrect information. There are examples of this to be found everywhere. For a most straightforward example, take Christian Science's belief in healing through prayer, and not medication. This has resulted in children dying from treatable illnesses. In this case, the parents certainly did not intend to harm their child - quite the opposite. But because their understanding of the world was flawed, their intentions did not matter - their children came to harm.

That's the big problem. Religion, by it's very nature claims the entire world as it's scope of authority. Which means if you accept nonsense in it, that nonsense gets into everything. And then harm is going to be done, intentional or otherwise, simply because no one can make a wise decision based on nonsense.

:thumbsup: I lika dis guy
 

Rakehellion

Lifer
Jan 15, 2013
12,181
35
91
With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.

That doesn't even make sense. Evil people do good things and good people do evil things too. People aren't one-dimensional Disney villains.

Religion makes good people think they are doing good things, when they are in fact doing bad things.

Everyone who does bad things thinks they're doing good things.

Science, we can all agree, is generally pretty great. Just looking at the field of medicine alone, science has saved countless lives, and technology has made those lives less burdensome and more enjoyable (unless you're a Luddite). But has it always made things better?

Wars are more lethal now, for one. If you wanted to raze a whole city and kill everyone in it, you used to have to do that sort of work by hand (or sword), but now, all it takes is one person pushing a button from 1000+ miles away. Is that better?

Political Science and Sociology have demonstrated that those things are wrong. Nuclear weapons are globally banned thanks to education. We've declared slavery and colosseum games to be unethical.

Making a distinction between "good" people and "evil" people is also helpful here.
 
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disappoint

Lifer
Dec 7, 2009
10,132
382
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Late to the discussion, but to answer the OP's question:

"As long as he doesn't try to harm anyone including himself, what's the harm in him believing nonsense?"

The harm is that by giving the child incorrect information, he will eventually end up harming someone unintentionally in a matter that could have been avoided. That belief in nonsense does not stay confined to privately held beliefs that are never acted on. It gets into everything by it's very nature - anything offering values on the scope of a religion has to, else it loses all it's value.

Which means it gets into every part of their lives, and causes them to make decisions based on incorrect information. There are examples of this to be found everywhere. For a most straightforward example, take Christian Science's belief in healing through prayer, and not medication. This has resulted in children dying from treatable illnesses. In this case, the parents certainly did not intend to harm their child - quite the opposite. But because their understanding of the world was flawed, their intentions did not matter - their children came to harm.

That's the big problem. Religion, by it's very nature claims the entire world as it's scope of authority. Which means if you accept nonsense in it, that nonsense gets into everything. And then harm is going to be done, intentional or otherwise, simply because no one can make a wise decision based on nonsense.

Good answer, thanks for contributing.

But your model of a child sounds more like a notepad app on your smartphone or PC than an actual human being. As if it's going to just take in all the information given to it and not think on it's own.

The harm is that by giving the child incorrect information, he will eventually end up harming someone unintentionally in a matter that could have been avoided.

Really? He WILL end up harming someone? I find that hard to believe. There has been a lot of misinformed people throughout history that have not gone on to harm people. Most people, maybe even all people are misinformed about a lot of topics. Misinformation is prevalent, and yet people live fulfilling lives despite it. Especially if it's temporary. which it always is. ;):hmm: Speaking of temporary...

For a most straightforward example, take Christian Science's belief in healing through prayer, and not medication. This has resulted in children dying from treatable illnesses.

Isn't this just an example of natural selection at work? What is wrong with that? It's natural. It's how nature works. For a most straightforward example of how nature doesn't work there is always Mars. If you don't like nature you might like to visit there. I hear the martian rover is ronery these days.

While it may be harmful to put a child at risk of illness without medication, remember in my post which you quoted I said "as long is it isn't harming anyone". In a case where it is harming someone, I believe it is wrong and should be unlawful.

They that spread this misinformation or fiction as truth also serve the purpose of leading by example. Example of what not to do. You are benefiting from them by learning from their mistakes. As per your example they withhold medication or immunization, you see the outcome and you learn not to make that mistake.

My point is, it isn't always harmful to believe in fiction for a little while. It also isn't permanent. People can think for themselves. They can learn and grow.

The intention of my OP was to squelch the noise from bickering and infighting, anger and vitriol which hinders the dissemination of knowledge.
 
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moonbogg

Lifer
Jan 8, 2011
10,731
3,440
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If there were a God who would offer me heaven, I would refuse because I am more moral than he. How could I enjoy my freedom in heaven knowing that so many others, just like me, continue to suffer on earth not to mention in hell? Staring such a god in the face, the proper thing to say would be, "freedom for all or freedom for none. Now send me back".
If a gods exists, he created us with one important basic instinct: the drive for freedom. Such a god would be doing us a disservice should he offer us eternal freedom if we could only believe in nonsense. Such a god wouldn't deprive us of the journey of achieving freedom for ourselves in the long run, dying as we move forward for the benefit of those who come after us, knowing that we served a great purpose. We were a rung on the ladder to freedom. This is the only way it can be truly appreciated and I have faith that we will get there. Not faith in any god, but faith in us.
 

Pray To Jesus

Diamond Member
Mar 14, 2011
3,622
0
0
If there were a God who would offer me heaven, I would refuse because I am more moral than he. How could I enjoy my freedom in heaven knowing that so many others, just like me, continue to suffer on earth not to mention in hell? Staring such a god in the face, the proper thing to say would be, "freedom for all or freedom for none. Now send me back".
If a gods exists, he created us with one important basic instinct: the drive for freedom. Such a god would be doing us a disservice should he offer us eternal freedom if we could only believe in nonsense. Such a god wouldn't deprive us of the journey of achieving freedom for ourselves in the long run, dying as we move forward for the benefit of those who come after us, knowing that we served a great purpose. We were a rung on the ladder to freedom. This is the only way it can be truly appreciated and I have faith that we will get there. Not faith in any god, but faith in us.
You are literally saying you want no punishment of crime. Freedom for all! No more people in jail.
 

ThinClient

Diamond Member
Jan 28, 2013
3,977
4
0
You are literally saying you want no punishment of crime. Freedom for all! No more people in jail.

Yeah, way better to kill innocent women and children because you can because you're god and because rules don't apply to you because you're god, right? Fuck it, let's kill entire tribes and nations because god told us to and if god told us to then it must be ethically and morally righteous!

We should certainly follow that morally and ethically righteous god, right?
 

Pray To Jesus

Diamond Member
Mar 14, 2011
3,622
0
0
Yeah, way better to kill innocent women and children because you can because you're god and because rules don't apply to you because you're god, right? Fuck it, let's kill entire tribes and nations because god told us to and if god told us to then it must be ethically and morally righteous!

We should certainly follow that morally and ethically righteous god, right?

They're not innocent.

http://www.inplainsite.org/html/can_god_kill_the_innocent.html

[FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif]there is nothing patently immoral about the Creator of life taking away life. It's immoral for us because when we take life, usually we are exercising a prerogative reserved for God alone.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif]Although God ordered the extermination of entire cities, He did so in righteous judgment on a people whose corruption had led to extreme wickedness, including child sacrifice. Did God destroy the righteous along with the wicked? In an exchange with Abraham, God indicated that He would spare the wicked to save the righteous. He demonstrated this principle by saving righteous people from Sodom and Jericho prior to their destruction. The charge that God indiscriminately murdered people does not hold to to critical evaluation of the biblical texts.
[/FONT]
 

moonbogg

Lifer
Jan 8, 2011
10,731
3,440
136
You are literally saying you want no punishment of crime. Freedom for all! No more people in jail.

The Christian god is perfectly unjust. He punishes eternally for finite crime. Good thing he is just made up.
Justice is up to us. You can't expect an imaginary god to take care of all your problems for you after you die. Justice is about human solutions for human problems.
 

ThinClient

Diamond Member
Jan 28, 2013
3,977
4
0
The better question -- Is a child sinless??

A sin is a willful act against the will of god, right?

How can a child know the will of god if it takes an adult praying and meditating on god to know it? How can an infant know ANYTHING about good and evil?

Please, show me proof that infants can think abstractly and understand the concept of god and sin.
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,986
3,321
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A sin is a willful act against the will of god, right?

How can a child know the will of god if it takes an adult praying and meditating on god to know it? How can an infant know ANYTHING about good and evil?

Please, show me proof that infants can think abstractly and understand the concept of god and sin.
You don`t answer a question with a question.....
Is a child sinless......should be simple enough....
You claim to have been a former pastor....are we born with a sin nature? Therefore is a child sinless?