A case for religion, and against AA.

[JEDIYoda]

Perception is a bitch; your senses might be fooling you.

That is the best you can do....everybody`s perception is different. There are many diverse opinions, perceptions and even definitions of Christianity, Atheism, faith....even of God.....deal with it. The problem is Atheist expect everyone else to play by the rules that they make up as they go along. On these forums at least Atheists expect other to agree with their definitions of things such as "faith"...etc......

To which I say what makes us as people so unique is that the world or at least America is big enough for all of us and our differences....

 

[PingviN]

Did I call you or anyone else names??
So why are you stooping to calling names in this particular forum?
This is not P&N where you can get away with calling people names.......

calling you and Atheist and calling Atheism a Religion is NOT calling you a name.
Deal with it...Atheism is more and more looking like a religion.......Atheism more and more is smelling like a religion....Atheism is morphing into a religion...just deal with it!
Calling names is not any way to deal with your feelings.....

If you can`t handle the subject matter bow out of the discussion there are others who are quite capable of representing Atheism......

When you stop posting idiotic arguments in a way where all you do is either link to some other idiots blog or post idiotic one liners, you can be sure I wont call you an idiot. I haven't called anyone else in this thread an idiot, despite not agreeing with everyone.

You, keep rehashing the same idiotic "argument", I use quotation marks because it's not actually an argument. It's just your completely baseless opinion and it's not even well formulated.

"Deal with it...Atheism is more and more looking like a religion.......Atheism more and more is smelling like a religion....Atheism is morphing into a religion...just deal with it!"

^That is not an argument.

The definition for an idiot is:

1
usually offensive : a person affected with extreme mental retardation
2
: a foolish or stupid person

If not the first, then most certainly the second. You show a complete lack of intellectual ability. You can't post one original thought. It's just one idiotic one-liner after the other. If you get a rebuttal, you don't even respond to it in an intelligent way. That makes you an idiot. If you're offended by that and actually isn't an idiot, then stop acting like one.


This isn't P&N. No personal attacks in discussion club. -Admin DrPizza

 

[witeken]

Anything to disprove God isn't off the table, I guess. From infinite universe, to multiverse, to whatever's next.

It's just sad, really...just how badly people don't want God to exists that they start making stuff to explain away the obvious beginnings and fine-tuning.

People who are actually open to being wrong don't go through these sort of gymnastics and hypothesizing to stay right.

:\

Your premise if very flawed. Science doesn't exist to disprove god.

Science exists to find out everything about the universe, not to disprove god. Everything we know is the observable universe. Things like the multiverse or an infinite universe are suggestions or are proposed because the physics lead to that conclusion (e.g. multiverse). If it doesn't exist, science won't say it does. If we don't know if it really exists, science won't say it exists as a fact. If it exists, it doesn't exist to disprove god.

But if it exists, we can use it to deduce if god exists or not.

 

[witeken]

Perception is a bitch; your senses might be fooling you.

They are fooling you.

Everything you see, hear, smell, taste, feel, experience, think is fake and doesn't really exist. All those things are the interpretation your brain gave to reality.

 

[justoh]

They are fooling you.

Everything you see, hear, smell, taste, feel, experience, think is fake and doesn't really exist. All those things are the interpretation your brain gave to reality.

Aren't you contradicting yourself? You reference reality while saying it doesn't exist. Our senses aren't perceiving anything real?

 

[witeken]

Aren't you contradicting yourself? You reference reality while saying it doesn't exist. Our senses aren't perceiving anything real?

They are perceiving reality, but everything is warped by your brain. Color for example doesn't exist. The atoms do exist, but the color how your brain interprets those doesn't. Reality looks a whole lot different than you think it does. The same is true for all other senses and arguably even thoughts.

 

[justoh]

They are perceiving reality, but everything is warped by your brain. Color for example doesn't exist. The atoms do exist, but the color how your brain interprets those doesn't. Reality looks a whole lot different than you think it does. The same is true for all other senses and arguably even thoughts.

Sure. As long as we agree that there's something being perceived.

 

[jackstar7]

Wait... you guys aren't just part of my dreamstate?

 

[JEDIYoda]

When you stop posting idiotic arguments in a way where all you do is either link to some other idiots blog or post idiotic one liners, you can be sure I wont call you an idiot. I haven't called anyone else in this thread an idiot, despite not agreeing with everyone.

You, keep rehashing the same idiotic "argument", I use quotation marks because it's not actually an argument. It's just your completely baseless opinion and it's not even well formulated.

"Deal with it...Atheism is more and more looking like a religion.......Atheism more and more is smelling like a religion....Atheism is morphing into a religion...just deal with it!"

^That is not an argument.

The definition for an idiot is:

1
usually offensive : a person affected with extreme mental retardation
2
: a foolish or stupid person

If not the first, then most certainly the second. You show a complete lack of intellectual ability. You can't post one original thought. It's just one idiotic one-liner after the other. If you get a rebuttal, you don't even respond to it in an intelligent way. That makes you an idiot. If you're offended by that and actually isn't an idiot, then stop acting like one.

Lets agree you stop pushing the idiotic Atheist point of view and I will stop pushing the point of view that Atheism is slowly becoming more and more like a religion......agree??

Who would have thought that this could have ruffled you feathers so much.....I really did not mean to take crap in your Cherrios...

So let me guess as long as I don`t point out the obvious or slam Atheism you will be happy! Yet you can say anything foolish about religion or God or faith and anything else you wish to say and we have sit back and accept what you say as fact?

Sound like another Atheist talking point......

 

[Dr. Zaus]

You're saying the same thing I said...but you're welcome to argue the merits of [insert translation here] with DixyCrat if you like.

I'll explain why in standard english this may have been giving CT some fits:

KJV
Faith
1) the assured expectation of things hoped for
2) the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld

1 is fine; but how doe sone demonstrate a reality that can't be seen? I can't demonstrate that my wife is cheating without some proof to show you.

NIV
Faith
1a) confidence in what we hope for
1b) assurance about what we do not see

1a is still fine; and 1b is something that can happen. I can feel assured that my wife cheating on me even if I don't have a shred of demonstrable evidence.

 

[sandorski]

Lets agree you stop pushing the idiotic Atheist point of view and I will stop pushing the point of view that Atheism is slowly becoming more and more like a religion......agree??

Who would have thought that this could have ruffled you feathers so much.....I really did not mean to take crap in your Cherrios...

So let me guess as long as I don`t point out the obvious or slam Atheism you will be happy! Yet you can say anything foolish about religion or God or faith and anything else you wish to say and we have sit back and accept what you say as fact?

Sound like another Atheist talking point......

Sounds like another Trolling.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Sounds like another Trolling.

I agree, the atheists are real good at trolling......

 

[alzan]

Sounds like another Trolling.

I agree, the atheists are real good at trolling......

"That the best you got?"

 

[jhbball]

I agree, the atheists are real good at trolling......

Maybe you should actually defend your religion, instead of attacking atheists. Funny how even the most devout never actually attempt to cite evidence for their beliefs. Maybe you could tell us your tax bill miracle story again?

 

[JEDIYoda]

Maybe you should actually defend your religion, instead of attacking atheists. Funny how even the most devout never actually attempt to cite evidence for their beliefs. Maybe you could tell us your tax bill miracle story again?

What I find interesting is you want a defense of something that no matter what is said you will question what is said!
You talk about my TAX Bill Miracle ..yet even if I were to post written notarized letters from the IRS Agents who dealt with this matter and other tax professionals that what happened in the manner that it happened does not happen , you would still make fun and question why God allowed this to happen when there are starving children in the world. <--another way to deflect what is being said!!

All I have to say is God really does answer the prayers of the faithful and some prayers never get answered...we will never know why......so I am done with this Tax Miracle...Miracles happen so live with it!!

Sort of like the question -- Prove there is a God....There is no sense presenting any sort of proof to an Atheist anyways...just like when you make fun of as you call it --the tax Miracle.....

even when proof smacks Atheists right upside the head ....they will forever question the proof or the person who found the proof or the motives of that individual.........nothing would be accomplished! Nobody would change their mind.....it would become a never ending cluster.......so no it would not be the biggest scientific discovery........

Then as Retro Rob stated -- If God did prove himself today, they'd say "how do you know its the Christian God, and not the thousands of other gods...you have to prove its not those gods, first!".

Then, if God says he's Yahweh, they'd object and say: "Well, how do we know that its the exact God in the Bible....how do we know God inspired the dubious writers of the Bible?"

If he says he did, then they'd say: "Well anyone could claim to be Moses...how we know that its not someone else who claimed to be Moses?".

..and so on and so on. This is how they full-proof their arguments, buy pushing the question further and further back.

 

[jhbball]

What I find interesting is you want a defense of something that no matter what is said you will question what is said!
You talk about my TAX Bill Miracle ..yet even if I were to post written notarized letters from the IRS Agents who dealt with this matter and other tax professionals that what happened in the manner that it happened does not happen , you would still make fun and question why God allowed this to happen when there are starving children in the world. <--another way to deflect what is being said!!

All I have to say is God really does answer the prayers of the faithful and some prayers never get answered...we will never know why......so I am done with this Tax Miracle...Miracles happen so live with it!!

Sort of like the question -- Prove there is a God....There is no sense presenting any sort of proof to an Atheist anyways...just like when you make fun of as you call it --the tax Miracle.....

even when proof smacks Atheists right upside the head ....they will forever question the proof or the person who found the proof or the motives of that individual.........nothing would be accomplished! Nobody would change their mind.....it would become a never ending cluster.......so no it would not be the biggest scientific discovery........

Then as Retro Rob stated -- If God did prove himself today, they'd say "how do you know its the Christian God, and not the thousands of other gods...you have to prove its not those gods, first!".

Then, if God says he's Yahweh, they'd object and say: "Well, how do we know that its the exact God in the Bible....how do we know God inspired the dubious writers of the Bible?"

If he says he did, then they'd say: "Well anyone could claim to be Moses...how we know that its not someone else who claimed to be Moses?".

..and so on and so on. This is how they full-proof their arguments, buy pushing the question further and further back.

Do you know many children die every year? It's north of 5 MILLION. Many in hellish conditions. Many certainly praying to a creator, or the Christian God before die a horrible death alone and scared. What's God plan for those children? Or was it all part of the plan? The almighty lord and creator of the universe was probably too busy reducing your dopey friend's tax bill instead of helping them.

Also, I like how the 1 tax professional became a huge number of tax professionals ready to validate this "miracle".

Take a moment, and read the wiki page about 'confirmation bias'.

 

[lotus503]

The absence of belief is not like religion, I do agree that certainly some atheist claim there is "NO GOD" can seem like it. But the fact is if a group of folks refuse to believe in the existence of something absent evidence is most definitely is not the same as making the choice to believe in something absent evidence or attributing random events as evidence.

I personally have no issue with people who choose to believe in a god. Some people frankly do much better in such a belief system. I think of all of the inmates serving life that find God, they need some purpose, forgiveness etc.

My issue comes in when these beliefs are used as a proxy for legislation or regulation.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Do you know many children die every year? It's north of 5 MILLION. Many in hellish conditions. Many certainly praying to a creator, or the Christian God before die a horrible death alone and scared. What's God plan for those children? Or was it all part of the plan? The almighty lord and creator of the universe was probably too busy reducing your dopey friend's tax bill instead of helping them.<--- Here we go again with that idiotic way of thinking......if you are mad at God then be mad!! That does not mean that somebody`s prayers are insignificant because somebody else might be starving or dying due to cancer......nice try though...if anything it is real obvious you have a mountain of issues with God....

Also, I like how the 1 tax professional became a huge number of tax professionals ready to validate this "miracle".<--- nobody said only one....every time a call was made it was a different individual who dealt with this situation. Then when a call was placed that afternoon/evening to verify what had taken place it seemed as if everybody was amazed that this had happened.....Is it like an Atheist to misrepresent what was sais in order to promote their cause?? I believe I said after the fact that many tax professionals who had retired from the IRS were consulted or asked about this.....did I not??
Take a moment, and read the wiki page about 'confirmation bias'.

Now you take a moments and crawl back under the rock where you came from......you just became a poster child as to why If God did prove himself today, Atheists would say "how do you know its the Christian God, and not the thousands of other gods...you have to prove its not those gods, first!".

There is no sense presenting any sort of proof to an Atheist anyways...why should God present proof?? Just like when you make fun of as you call it --the tax Miracle.....

even when proof smacks Atheists right upside the head ....they will forever question the proof or the person who found the proof or the motives of that individual.........nothing would be accomplished! Nobody would change their mind.....it would become a never ending cluster.......so no it would not be the biggest scientific discovery........

Then as Retro Rob stated -- If God did prove himself today, they'd say "how do you know its the Christian God, and not the thousands of other gods...you have to prove its not those gods, first!".

Then, if God says he's Yahweh, they'd object and say: "Well, how do we know that its the exact God in the Bible....how do we know God inspired the dubious writers of the Bible?"

If he says he did, then they'd say: "Well anyone could claim to be Moses...how we know that its not someone else who claimed to be Moses?".

..and so on and so on. This is how they full-proof their arguments, buy pushing the question further and further back.

Another Atheist talking point -- confirmation Bias....now that is hysterically funny.....sad and pathetic that you would use that to explain away everything...I feel sorry for you.....

I will hold onto my faith and what I believe and you can hold for dear life onto your "confirmation bias"......after all that is what documents that support your Atheist beliefs say......

 

[lotus503]

Now you take a moments and crawl back under the rock where you came from......you just became a poster child as to why If God did prove himself today, Atheists would say "how do you know its the Christian God, and not the thousands of other gods...you have to prove its not those gods, first!".

There is no sense presenting any sort of proof to an Atheist anyways...why should God present proof?? Just like when you make fun of as you call it --the tax Miracle.....

even when proof smacks Atheists right upside the head ....they will forever question the proof or the person who found the proof or the motives of that individual.........nothing would be accomplished! Nobody would change their mind.....it would become a never ending cluster.......so no it would not be the biggest scientific discovery........

Then as Retro Rob stated -- If God did prove himself today, they'd say "how do you know its the Christian God, and not the thousands of other gods...you have to prove its not those gods, first!".

Then, if God says he's Yahweh, they'd object and say: "Well, how do we know that its the exact God in the Bible....how do we know God inspired the dubious writers of the Bible?"

If he says he did, then they'd say: "Well anyone could claim to be Moses...how we know that its not someone else who claimed to be Moses?".

..and so on and so on. This is how they full-proof their arguments, buy pushing the question further and further back.

Another Atheist talking point -- confirmation Bias....now that is hysterically funny.....sad and pathetic that you would use that to explain away everything...I feel sorry for you.....

I will hold onto my faith and what I believe and you can hold for dear life onto your "confirmation bias"......after all that is what documents that support your Atheist beliefs say......

Sadly I had a nice long thoughtful reply to all of your points that was nuked?

Lucky most of it could be summed up by simply stating we simply don't agree on what equals proof.


You believing something occurred because of your belief system is not proof. all of the proposed straw men above simply never get over this hurdle.

I can say without question is God showed up today he would most definitely have to prove it was him, those that do not require this proof risk ending up in a Waco or Jamestown situation.

I come from the position of thinking that religion can be a net benefit to society, you just cant tell me there is any shred of actual proof of gods existence,doing so only demonstrates that your faith requires confirmation bias.

I'm open to the idea of God existing but given the absence of proof i'm pretty darn skeptical. and "testimony" of ones personal experience is a long way from Proof. I think anyone who puts energy into bettering themselves be it through religion, self help, meditation, whatever is likely to have some positive results.

Lastly Humans need to learn to be OK with not having the answers to things. Just because I don't know how exactly the universe began doesn't mean god created it, doesn't mean he/she didn't either it means we simply don't know.

 

[jhbball]

Now you take a moments and crawl back under the rock where you came from......you just became a poster child as to why If God did prove himself today, Atheists would say "how do you know its the Christian God, and not the thousands of other gods...you have to prove its not those gods, first!".

There is no sense presenting any sort of proof to an Atheist anyways...why should God present proof?? Just like when you make fun of as you call it --the tax Miracle.....

even when proof smacks Atheists right upside the head ....they will forever question the proof or the person who found the proof or the motives of that individual.........nothing would be accomplished! Nobody would change their mind.....it would become a never ending cluster.......so no it would not be the biggest scientific discovery........

Then as Retro Rob stated -- If God did prove himself today, they'd say "how do you know its the Christian God, and not the thousands of other gods...you have to prove its not those gods, first!".

Then, if God says he's Yahweh, they'd object and say: "Well, how do we know that its the exact God in the Bible....how do we know God inspired the dubious writers of the Bible?"

If he says he did, then they'd say: "Well anyone could claim to be Moses...how we know that its not someone else who claimed to be Moses?".

..and so on and so on. This is how they full-proof their arguments, buy pushing the question further and further back.

Another Atheist talking point -- confirmation Bias....now that is hysterically funny.....sad and pathetic that you would use that to explain away everything...I feel sorry for you.....

I will hold onto my faith and what I believe and you can hold for dear life onto your "confirmation bias"......after all that is what documents that support your Atheist beliefs say......

Haha, you didn't address anything I typed. How about the 5 million+ children that die every year?

 

[alzan]

Sadly I had a nice long thoughtful reply to all of your points that was nuked?

Lucky most of it could be summed up by simply stating we simply don't agree on what equals proof.


You believing something occurred because of your belief system is not proof. all of the proposed straw men above simply never get over this hurdle.

I can say without question is God showed up today he would most definitely have to prove it was him, those that do not require this proof risk ending up in a Waco or Jamestown situation.

I come from the position of thinking that religion can be a net benefit to society, you just cant tell me there is any shred of actual proof of gods existence,doing so only demonstrates that your faith requires confirmation bias.

I'm open to the idea of God existing but given the absence of proof i'm pretty darn skeptical. and "testimony" of ones personal experience is a long way from Proof. I think anyone who puts energy into bettering themselves be it through religion, self help, meditation, whatever is likely to have some positive results.

Lastly Humans need to learn to be OK with not having the answers to things. Just because I don't know how exactly the universe began doesn't mean god created it, doesn't mean he/she didn't either it means we simply don't know.

Ethical behavior is a net benefit to society; some get their ethics from a religion, some do not. Religion, unfortunately, carries with it a lot of baggage that is at best unnecessary and at worst detrimental to the individual and society as a whole.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

Haha, you didn't address anything I typed. How about the 5 million+ children that die every year?

What about every bit of evil that we can point to on earth?

Either God wants to abolish evil and cannot,
or he can but does not want to,
or he cannot and does not want to,
or lastly he can and wants to.

If he wants to remove evil, and cannot,
he is not omnipotent;
If he can, but does not want to,
he is not benevolent;
If he neither can nor wants to,
he is neither omnipotent nor benevolent;
But if God can abolish evil and wants to,
how does evil exist?

This is an ancient argument (300 BCE) and amounts the question "why does evil exist?"

Let me start by saying I respect everyone for who they are; I think (with a notable exception) we are all honest brokers trying to share our unique life-paths and experiences with each other.

First I would like to note that the "God" in question is some omnipotent creator that Epicurus had to contend with. Keep in mind this isn't the Abrahamic God of all good and no evil, but one that's been with humanity across cultures, for a very long time. It is only in a modern abrahamic-faith formation that we delimit God to "of the bible". If there is a God then the nature of spiritually in the human condition is one that is universal: That there is a greater being that created good and that the opposite of the will of that being is other-hurting/self-serving lust, and pride.


** So why does any evil exist?**

Perhaps there is no creator of Good; but if this is true then there is no real evil either. But if there is evil then Epicurus's logic is impeccable with one exception: you.

If God's plan was to allow all the good and evil that ever happened and ever will happen just so that you (and me, and everyone else) can exist just as we are, then the Epicurian argument is moot. If the reason for all of creation is your existence just the way you are, then adding or taking away any of the evil in this world would change who you are.

If there is no God then good and evil are simply social programing riding atop evolutionarily bound hardware. Which means that there isn't any real evil and the only mistake genocidal ideologues really make is not being successful at changing the program and killing off those that disagree.


It is impossible to live a life where you believe the meaning of life is nothing but secretions of this or that pleasure chemical by (or into) the brain. The impossibility of living consistently in such an existential manner is no proof of a Real good and evil; but it is evidence in favor of the utility of believing in something greater than yourself.

No doubt if you are self-reflective enough, no matter what you believe in or don't, you believe in something greater than self-pleasure and live for that. From that perspective we are all good and worthy of all the love in the universe.



My hope for humanity is that if we started with radical self-forgiveness and love for that which is 'other' we won't be so easily duped into hate and murder by religious leaders, and so on.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Haha, you didn't address anything I typed. How about the 5 million+ children that die every year?

actually I did address your issues with the 5 million + children who die due to starvation or other things every year!

I addressed your issue by stating why there is no need to discuss the issue with you -- which is the same answer as to why God is not in the business of proving himself.......
You would find a way to counter anything I said.....

You would conveniently trot out the magical words -- confirmation bias...lol

Yet daily there are people whose cars break down or people who have sick children or people who need food or people who just need somebody to be a friend to them or people who through no fault of their own are losing their homes or people who just need something and they pray to God and for some reason somebody knocks on their door with a food basket or a good Samaritan stops to help them get their car started or for some reason the doctor says your child is dying there is nothing I can do and then miraculously the child lives......so these people Thank God for answering their prayers and continue on with their Christian journey in life........so what about those 5 million + children who are starving and living in hellish conditions?? The question should be what are you personally doing about that if it is that much of a concern to you??? Or are you just being facetious?

The same is true for people who are not religious or do not believe in God yet have same circumstances and yet somebody comes along or something happens to help them solve the problem.

We both know these same things also happen everyday and nobody lends a hand to help......could we agree that is just the way things are sometimes?

You know we all I believe one of the reasons were were put on earth is to try to make this a better place.....personally since I do not have the time to go to where these children are I prefer to donate via charities that are far more able to help these children......your turn?

Then as Retro Rob stated -- If God did prove himself today, they'd say "how do you know its the Christian God, and not the thousands of other gods...you have to prove its not those gods, first!".

Then, if God says he's Yahweh, they'd object and say: "Well, how do we know that its the exact God in the Bible....how do we know God inspired the dubious writers of the Bible?"

If he says he did, then they'd say: "Well anyone could claim to be Moses...how we know that its not someone else who claimed to be Moses?".

..and so on and so on. This is how they full-proof their arguments, buy pushing the question further and further back.

 

[PhatoseAlpha]

Apparently, you can fool-proof your argument against god by moving the goal posts. Which means god cannot prevent you from moving the goal posts. Which means he isn't omnipotent. Which means he isn't God.

Q.E.D.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Apparently, you can fool-proof your argument against god by moving the goal posts. Which means <---nothing!god cannot prevent you from moving the goal posts. <--Why does God have to prevent anything??Which means he isn't omnipotent. Which means he isn't God. <-- just because God does not do something or prevent something from happening does not mean that god is not God!!
Q.E.D.

I have no argument against god...I believe in God!!

Spoken like a true Atheist.....How am I moving the goal posts? I don`t limit my God!
Why would God want to prevent me from moving the goal posts?
It`s Atheists who always are moving the goal posts.....I think you did not comprehend very well what I said concerning why god is not in the business of proving himself....

No matter what is said Atheists will always full-proof their arguments, buy pushing the question further and further back.