A case for religion, and against AA.

[JEDIYoda]

yep, the morals are not the same, secular morality is superior, although I don't see how this is crazy

hahaha so you found some people on you tube that support your belief that secular morality is superior.......

You know you can find anything you want online to support even the most outlandish beliefs.....

taken from yahoo answers -- This person has a grip on whats going on --

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/...QR2dGlkA1ZJUDQ0OV8x?qid=20110123103640AAqWjjH <-- to avoid a wall of text.....

Shimron answered 3 years ago


Secular morality and Religious Morality.

I'm going to assume that Secular Morality is morals derived from any source and "agreed" to be good and Religious morality to be drawn from the teachings of a "particular" religious movement.

In some ways you set up a good ambiguous question. There is no answer to your question in the format that it exists in. Each religious movement will have differing moralities. Secular morality is based upon certain beliefs as well and each persons, regions, countries, etc, views are going to be different.

So the first problem that arises from what appears to be a simple plus is that first we must study morality. Then we must study Stability. Then we might want to study society. These seem to be the big three pieces of a puzzle.

Society - any grouping of people with like minds. Throughout history there have been a huge number of societies. Some "stable" and others "unstable". Some stable societies have indeed been religious. Some unstable societies have been religious. Some stable societies have been secular and other unstable societies have been secular. So on the basis of what has come before we have no real answer. Where to go from here.

Stability would imply that the system is sufficient and there are few if any major crisis moments. I think that the only group that doesn't get major crisis moments might be the Amish... however even they (and in so being [all]) are subject to instability. So we might consider the source of stability.

Morals - either subjective and drawn from what we think works or objective and being right or wrong despite how we may feel about them. I think thats a fair definition so far.

There are many good discussion already around the internet. One such discussion is on CARM.org (a simple search for the type of debate or topic will give a good deal of infomation). The who things comes down to a few premises -

Which side has subjective moral standards and which side has objective moral standards. From the religious side it may depend on which religion you are talking about. There is a great deal of people who claim to be from religion X and don't actually follow it. These "nominal" religion people are not reflective of the teachings of the values inherent in that system. Arguing using these people as representatives or evidences does nothing to further the topic.

I can speak for what I know of Christianity however and so will limit my comments to Biblical morality for a Christian. For a Christian the Bible presents a set of objective moral standards with directives and infomation from God revealing what is right and wrong.

The first complaint I expect is along the lines that in the OT God killed and did action X and so he cannot be Moral. This is a criss cross of moral judgements from subjective to objective. That because of a subjective belief that the statement maker knows better than an entirely different system doesn't make him right or wrong. This line of thought could continue but I'm going to cut it off... An understanding of the OT and NT is required for anyone claiming to follow Christ. The rules of what was prohibited and allowed changed through different covenants over time. It used to be wrong to eat certain animals, the use of a high priest was required for talking to God. For Christians these things are not applicable. So it might be a good idea to study what is applicable to Christians in terms of morality and what is simply history or previous lessons etc.

Moving on - The objective morality that is expoused by Christianity is not always reflected by those who wave the biggest banner. The purpose of Christianity is not to point the finger or force anyone into anything.

However there are a huge number of people world wide who follow this thought and process. They are not doing what they ough and are guilt of violating their own moral code, sometimes without realizing it. legalism has very little to do with Christianity. True Christian morals draw family and friends together. Causes them to support one another and keep them focused on God and who He says we are. That is the epitome of stable society. Most don't live this way however and there is much strife in the world.

So I would posture that real Christian morality does promote stability. Simple religious morality (ie legalism, finger pointing, etc) has no place in claiming stability.

Secular morality has a problem in that it is in flux. It changes with the times. It changes with events, with the flavor of the day and has nothing to do with absolute truth. It is relative in nature. It deals with what man thinks is a good idea or bad idea.

These are just my thoughts... not certain if they help at all but hopefully they bring some closer to a better understanding.

 

[ringtail]

``

 

[ringtail]

sad that mostly, people don't discriminate "religion" from "spirituality"

sort of like people don't discriminate "mind" (atttribute of the soul) from "physical brain" (attribute of the physical vehicle). Actually they're fantastically subtly linked, but different, exist apart. Mind (soul) precedes brain (physical).

Then lotta guys take another misstep and think, BEACUSE drugs and electrodes administerd to the brain are observed to affect mind, therefore "mind" is produced by the brain .

Sort of like lotta "folks" (your prez's phrase) go wrong thinking crusty ancient obsolete forms of "religion" are what God and spiritual realization are about. Nay. Light years apart. However, there's "something" to be said for occasions where "religion" can help an individual achieve deep spirituality, e.g., St. Francis, Milarepa, St. Theresa of Avila, Yogananda, Padre Pio, more & more of whatever brand you like.


======================
Rincon in the foreground, looking up the Santa Barbara coast

 

[justoh]

Any evidence for this mind/brain dichotomy?

 

[norseamd]

Any evidence for this mind/brain dichotomy?

any evidence against

 

[PingviN]

So I would posture that real Christian morality does promote stability. Simple religious morality (ie legalism, finger pointing, etc) has no place in claiming stability.

"Real Christian morality", what is that? Is that the morals taught in the Bible?

 

[witeken]

any evidence against

Sure.

 

[JEDIYoda]

"Real Christian morality", what is that? Is that the morals taught in the Bible?

ask the author of the piece I copied and pasted....because no matter what I say you will have some off the wall remark........

As if morality based on your atheism will be any better..lolol

 

[witeken]

As if morality based on your atheism will be any better..lolol

Atheism isn't a religion. It doesn't give your morality or anything; you can't base morality just on the absence of a believe in something (gods) = basing something on nothing.

 

[justoh]

Atheism isn't a religion. It doesn't give your morality or anything; you can't base morality just on the absence of a believe in something (gods) = basing something on nothing.

If only they could understand this. It's pointed out every day here, it seems. Some even have it as their signatures. This is why it's pointless discussing religion with religious people, and why atheists get angry, give up, and resort to mockery in response their silly commentary.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Its funny how just a few post above these is there is a post that says -- Secular morality is Superior......

You cannot have your cake and eat it too....

So what exatly do Atheist base their morality on...lol....this ought to be good.....pulls up a chair and some popcorn!!

Atheist morality?? Christian morality?? Buddhist Morality??

This really interesting.....

 

[sandorski]

Its funny how just a few post above these is there is a post that says -- Secular morality is Superior......

You cannot have your cake and eat it too....

So what exatly do Atheist base their morality on...lol....this ought to be good.....pulls up a chair and some popcorn!!

Atheist morality?? Christian morality?? Buddhist Morality??

This really interesting.....

That would be my first guess.

 

[JEDIYoda]

http://www.allaboutworldview.org/christian-ethics-and-the-response-to-secular-ethics-faq.htm

Christian Ethics and the Response to Secular Ethics Christians need to recognize secular ideas regarding ethics and the flaws inherent in these ideas. For the Christian, morality is a lifestyle of glorifying God, and it is crucial for our moral health to stay away from the hazy thinking that creates less&#8211;than&#8211;absolute moral values. Rejecting moral absolutes in favor of &#8220;situational ethics&#8221; is nothing but an excuse to do as we please under the banner of morality. Although history clearly shows that the consequences of such a morality are deadly, thousands today continue to perish as a direct result of their immoral behavior.

Christian Ethics &#8211; The Christian Response to Ethical Relativism Secular moralities are based on a belief that our own ideas about right and wrong are sufficient for an ethical code. Yet, this leaves us without a clear standard for judging moral actions and attitudes. Schaeffer insists that there must be an absolute if there is to be a moral order and real values. &#8220;If there is no absolute beyond man&#8217;s ideas, then there is no final appeal to judge between individuals and groups whose moral judgments conflict. We are merely left with conflicting opinions.

&#8221;1 This is the Achilles&#8217; heel of ethical relativism&#8212;it leaves us with no standards, only conflicting opinions and subjective value judgments. The ethical vacuum created by relativism allows leaders to misuse their power. &#8220;Those who stand outside all judgments of value cannot have any ground for preferring one of their own impulses to another except the emotional strength of that impulse,&#8221;2 writes Lewis.

For the Christian, God is the ultimate source of morality, and it is nothing short of blasphemy when we assume His role. And yet, if we do not submit entirely to the moral absolutes established in God&#8217;s character, logically the only ethical authority presiding over us is our own impulses. Christians need to understand the fallacies of secular ethics so we can avoid the inconsistencies of unfounded ethical ideals. We must recognize all secular ethical codes as aberrations of God&#8217;s code.

Notes: Rendered with permission from the book, Understanding the Times: The Collision of Today&#8217;s Competing Worldviews (Rev 2nd ed), David Noebel, Summit Press, 2006. Compliments of John Stonestreet, David Noebel, and the Christian Worldview Ministry at Summit Ministries. All rights reserved in the original. 1 Francis A. Schaeffer, How Should We Then Live? (Old Tappan, NJ: Fleming H. Revell, 1976), 145. 2 Lewis, The Abolition of Man, 78. - See more at: http://www.allaboutworldview.org/ch...o-secular-ethics-faq.htm#sthash.F5u0qBcW.dpuf

 

[sandorski]

http://www.allaboutworldview.org/christian-ethics-and-the-response-to-secular-ethics-faq.htm

Christian Ethics and the Response to Secular Ethics Christians need to recognize secular ideas regarding ethics and the flaws inherent in these ideas. For the Christian, morality is a lifestyle of glorifying God, and it is crucial for our moral health to stay away from the hazy thinking that creates less–than–absolute moral values. Rejecting moral absolutes in favor of “situational ethics” is nothing but an excuse to do as we please under the banner of morality. Although history clearly shows that the consequences of such a morality are deadly, thousands today continue to perish as a direct result of their immoral behavior.

Christian Ethics – The Christian Response to Ethical Relativism Secular moralities are based on a belief that our own ideas about right and wrong are sufficient for an ethical code. Yet, this leaves us without a clear standard for judging moral actions and attitudes. Schaeffer insists that there must be an absolute if there is to be a moral order and real values. “If there is no absolute beyond man’s ideas, then there is no final appeal to judge between individuals and groups whose moral judgments conflict. We are merely left with conflicting opinions.

”1 This is the Achilles’ heel of ethical relativism—it leaves us with no standards, only conflicting opinions and subjective value judgments. The ethical vacuum created by relativism allows leaders to misuse their power. “Those who stand outside all judgments of value cannot have any ground for preferring one of their own impulses to another except the emotional strength of that impulse,”2 writes Lewis.

For the Christian, God is the ultimate source of morality, and it is nothing short of blasphemy when we assume His role. And yet, if we do not submit entirely to the moral absolutes established in God’s character, logically the only ethical authority presiding over us is our own impulses. Christians need to understand the fallacies of secular ethics so we can avoid the inconsistencies of unfounded ethical ideals. We must recognize all secular ethical codes as aberrations of God’s code.

Notes: Rendered with permission from the book, Understanding the Times: The Collision of Today’s Competing Worldviews (Rev 2nd ed), David Noebel, Summit Press, 2006. Compliments of John Stonestreet, David Noebel, and the Christian Worldview Ministry at Summit Ministries. All rights reserved in the original. 1 Francis A. Schaeffer, How Should We Then Live? (Old Tappan, NJ: Fleming H. Revell, 1976), 145. 2 Lewis, The Abolition of Man, 78. - See more at: http://www.allaboutworldview.org/ch...o-secular-ethics-faq.htm#sthash.F5u0qBcW.dpuf

That's nice. It would have merit if this god could be shown to exist and/or that Moral Absolutes existed.

 

[justoh]

Its funny how just a few post above these is there is a post that says -- Secular morality is Superior......

You cannot have your cake and eat it too....

So what exatly do Atheist base their morality on...lol....this ought to be good.....pulls up a chair and some popcorn!!

Atheist morality?? Christian morality?? Buddhist Morality??

This really interesting.....

The words "secular" and "atheist" aren't synonymous. We all get our morality from ourselves or other humans. This answers your questions, though you won't be able realize it.

 

[JEDIYoda]

YOU GUYS ARE A SLICK BUNCH...don`t even try to pin you down....hahhaaa

so where do other humans get their morality from??

So you really get your morality from yourselves?

You mean you are born with morality?

 

[sandorski]

YOU GUYS ARE A SLICK BUNCH...don`t even try to pin you down....hahhaaa

so where do other humans get their morality from??

So you really get your morality from yourselves?

You mean you are born with morality?

Did your mother teach you about Morality?

 

[witeken]

So what exatly do Atheist base their morality on...lol....this ought to be good.....pulls up a chair and some popcorn!!

On knowledge (acquired by science).

Here's a great discussion on the subject: Lawrence Krauss - William Lane Craig debate.

 

[PingviN]

ask the author of the piece I copied and pasted....because no matter what I say you will have some off the wall remark........

As if morality based on your atheism will be any better..lolol

I'm asking you, you linked it. What is Christian morality? If it's spawned from the Bible then I have several highly questionable sections from both the Old and the New Testament to combat the idea that morality sprung from a 2000 year old book is good morality. Of course you wont respond, because your religious view will never hold up to reason and you're not ready to have that bubble burst just yet.

There is no such thing as atheistic morality. Atheism is not a set of values, it's the rejection of baseless arguments about a deity existing. Secular morality is something else. It's the morality that is evolving with the human race and society.

 

[JEDIYoda]

On knowledge (acquired by science).

Here's a great discussion on the subject: Lawrence Krauss - William Lane Craig debate.

spoken like a true whatever......science dictates morality...rofl....

You do realize how silly that sounds......

 

[moonbogg]

I'm asking you, you linked it. What is Christian morality? If it's spawned from the Bible then I have several highly questionable sections from both the Old and the New Testament to combat the idea that morality sprung from a 2000 year old book is good morality. Of course you wont respond, because your religious view will never hold up to reason and you're not ready to have that bubble burst just yet.

There is no such thing as atheistic morality. Atheism is not a set of values, it's the rejection of baseless arguments about a deity existing. Secular morality is something else. It's the morality that is evolving with the human race and society.

That's the only morality that we have, of course. Always changing. Usually improving, but it takes a few steps backward sometimes. It always springs back though and rights itself.
Can anyone guess what the next big "immoral" thing will be? I got a pretty good idea but it won't be for a little while yet.

 

[JEDIYoda]

I'm asking you, you linked it. What is Christian morality? If it's spawned from the Bible then I have several highly questionable sections from both the Old and the New Testament to combat the idea that morality sprung from a 2000 year old book is good morality.

Only highly questionable to those who do not understand the Bible and take things out of context! Thus why should I give you a chance to response and make a fool out of yourself??

 

[PingviN]

Only highly questionable to those who do not understand the Bible and take things out of context! Thus why should I give you a chance to response and make a fool out of yourself??

Well, then would you at least explain the criteria for which Biblical passages are literal and which are figurative? I realize you are intellectually stunted and avoid arguing the case at all costs, but please, try. Explain what religious morals are. You seem to think that morals come from religion, so it should be an easy one for you.

As an atheist, I would never presume to teach my children what to think. I would teach my children how to think. Is religious morals, as in: indoctrination of children, superior to secular morals, as in: letting children decide for themselves?

Before you answer, you need to understand the word indoctrination, so I suggest you read up on that first. If you don't think that raising your child to be a Christian (or a Jew, or a Muslim) is indoctrination then do not understand the word.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Well, then would you at least explain the criteria for which Biblical passages are literal and which are figurative? I realize you are intellectually stunted and avoid arguing the case at all costs, but please, try. Explain what religious morals are. You seem to think that morals come from religion, so it should be an easy one for you. <--- why?

As an atheist, I would never presume to teach my children what to think. I would teach my children how to think. Is religious morals, as in: indoctrination of children, superior to secular morals, as in: letting children decide for themselves? <--- again your children have only you as an example to indoctrinate them...be it indirectly or directly....

Before you answer, you need to understand the word indoctrination, so I suggest you read up on that first. If you don't think that raising your child to be a Christian (or a Jew, or a Muslim) is indoctrination then do not understand the word. <--- indoctrinate has many different meaning to many different people....

No, I will not stoop to allowing you to show just how much you do not understand about the Bible!!

 

[alzan]

No, I will not stoop to allowing you to show just how much you do not understand about the Bible!!

Stooping to insults makes baby Jesus cry