A bit disillusioned

[hopefloats]

<< Plus, we're serving as a template for the modern world, we allow our women to vote, and go to school, we allow people to watch porn on TV, etc, etc, . >>



no offence intended really, Pliablemoose, but I think you should get out more often.
:Q

 

[HomeBrewerDude]

I suppose the US should become isolationist and let the rest of the world sort out their own problems and conflicts. *sigh* I don't think Ellendale and others will ever be happy with the US. At least not until the US does something that benefits them directly.

 

[ToBeMe]

<< Violence, for example, is merely a short-term solution. >>


Yeah......Take WWII for example......that was one short term fix! Why it wasn't any time hardly and the germans were coming at us with the 4th Reichstad and the Japenese were once again terrorizing the Pacific & Asia..............

Oh wait......that didn't happen did it??????

 

[StormRider]

I believe we must use a multiprong approach to attacking terrorism. Terrorists are like cockroaches. In order to get rid of them (or reduce them to the point where you aren't bothered by them), it's neccessary to get rid of the conditions that helped spawned them.

1) Attack and destroy all terrorist networks. We do this by force -- we go around the globe and hunt and kill every one of these disgusting creatures. No remorse.

2) We must have a war on poverty. Have you ever noticed that throughout history, whenever there is a hugh gap between the wealthy and the poor there always comes some crazy lunatic who somehow appeals to these poor people and cause a violent revolt? And the country then becomes horribly worst because they are ruled by stupid people.

It disturbs me to see so many of the common folk in the middle east seemingly supporting bin Laden. We must find some way to get rid of these religious schools that teach nothing but hatred. And one way is to help eliminate poverty.

Terrorists like bin Laden use them to stir up trouble. At first he wanted the US out of Saudi Arabia. Then he says he is fighting against US policy towards Iraq. And now in his latest video tape, he mentions the Palestinian people. He keeps changing his motive to whatever is convenient.

3) We must work harder (Bush made a mistake by wanting to have a "hands off" foreign policy -- sorry we live in a world that is growing smaller -- we can't just isolate ourselves and think that outside events won't affect us) to help establish peace between Israel and the Palestinians -- we must help insure Israel's security and we must help the Palestinian people have a homeland.

 

[StormRider]

<< << Plus, we're serving as a template for the modern world, we allow our women to vote, and go to school, we allow people to watch porn on TV, etc, etc, >>

You mean like in Europe, Australia, Canada, New Zealand etc. etc.?

The US doesn't serve as a template for anything. It just thinks it is one.

>>



I think you're mistaken. The US culture is dominating. Our movies dominate most foreign box offices. Same with our music.

I still remember how many French oppose the opening of Disney World in their country. They hated the way our culture seems to dominate and didn't want to see their own culture fade away by American culture.

We have the world's most powerful military. We have the world's most strongest and largest economy. We have the most dominate culture. When people think of the "Western World" the US is the one that comes to mind. This is one reason why we are the target and not Canada or New Zealand (no offense to these fine countries).

 

[StormRider]

<< Yeah......Take WWII for example......that was one short term fix! Why it wasn't any time hardly and the germans were coming at us with the 4th Reichstad and the Japenese were once again terrorizing the Pacific & Asia..............

Oh wait......that didn't happen did it??????

>>



One of the reasons why that worked was because we rebuilt those nations in our image. I sometimes wish we could still do that but that would just cause the Muslim world to hate us more.

 

[Pliablemoose]

Elledan is benefitting from living in a country that produces oil that's not in the Middle East...


hopefloats, I expected something better from someone that shares our continent.

 

[Aelus]

<< Elledan is benefitting from living in a country that produces oil that's not in the Middle East...

since when are there oil wells in the netherlands?

Aelus

 

[Elledan]

<<

<< Find out the cause of this hatred in so many countries for the US and do something about it. It's not a simple solution, but at least it's a long-term one, until some other president and/or American companies screw up again. >>



Ok, so I walk up to the biggest bully on the playground & ask him why he hates the kid he just beat up. >>

That's not a good anology. No contact with the Taliban, Bin Laden's organization or any other extremist organization is necessary. We've got such a thing as history books and experts on anything which happened on this planet, remember?



<< Again: You seen pretty good @ shooting down every suggestion, what would you do if the same thing happened in the Netherlands? (I'm going to pretend I'm not 1/2 Norwegian from now on) >>

If the same thing happened in the Netherlands, I would have seen it coming a long time before it happened, just like with the US. Sure, it's very sad for the people who died and their families, but terrorism is never without a reason. Apparenly we (Netherlands) are doing nothing wrong, so no one is attacking us.

As for your question, if such an attack occurred in this country, I would feel exactly the same about it. Find the cause for the hatred which caused the attack and get rid of the hatred instead of focusing on killing as many terrorists as possible, which is simply put a futile task. You kill hundred terrorists and instantly you've a few hundred more to fight against. Why is it so hard to understand that?



<< << Elledan is benefitting from living in a country that produces oil that's not in the Middle East... >>

since when are there oil wells in the netherlands? >>

Actually, we do have some oil here, but mostly natural gas.

 

[Elledan]

<< I suppose the US should become isolationist and let the rest of the world sort out their own problems and conflicts. *sigh* I don't think Ellendale and others will ever be happy with the US. At least not until the US does something that benefits them directly. >>

You're mistaken. If the US wants to provide other countries with food and medicines, that's fine. Supporting a highly questionable country and directly meddling with the politics in that area is a totally different matter. When looking back at the history of the US, it appears that this country has always been involved the most in the political issues of different countries all around the globe. I'm not saying that this is a bad thing, but it requires quite some expertise to do this right. The more times you do it, the greater the chance that you screw something up. If the country which made that mistake would offer its apologies and try to correct its mistake, things wouldn't look too bad either. It appears that the US has failed to do any of those things.

 

[HomeBrewerDude]

huh??? Ellendan you aren't making any sense.

You are inferring justification from the fact that the attacks happened. Thats just circular logic.

Then you argue that an absense of attacks on the Netherlands proves the value of Dutch foriegn policy. The absense of data can prove nothing. Furthermore, wasn't Rotterdam was obliterated during WWII? Was Netherland to blame? Of course not, Hitler was at war because of his own political amibitions and Rotterdam just happened to be in the way.


edit: typos

 

[ToBeMe]

<< Apparenly we (Netherlands) are doing nothing wrong, so no one is attacking us. >>


LOL! How egotistical! Rather......you are so insignificant....nobody bothers to keep track of or listen to what goes on or what you say....



<< Find the cause for the hatred which caused the attack >>


LOL!.....Again! We DO know this.....Bin Laden stated it just this weekend again in a taped message......his goal is to bring down the USA and kill as many as he can along the way! he states Israel and the Saudi bases as a cause.......well, if we ended Israeli support, they'd be all over the Arab countries in a week.....and kill a LOT of them! As for the Saudi bases......"politcally" the Saudis may say things against them......but in reallity....they DO want the bases there! Have you ever been there EllaDon?????? I have!

 

[ToBeMe]

<< You're mistaken. If the US wants to provide other countries with food and medicines, that's fine. >>


Oh......hell no man! You want us out.....how about You.....The Netherlands take over for us?????? That's right....from now on you are responsible for responding to ALL the crisis around the globe.....sending TRILLIONS of dollars worth of aid in food, material, and monies to these nations.....oh, and don't forget.....you have to spend the money and attain the manpower and technology to assist in all of these operations around the globe many times several at one time! Don't forget too, you must now send your troops to be the majority in all UN peacekeeping missions, and whiule you're at it, pay the brunt of the bill for all these missions!



<< When looking back at the history of the US, it appears that this country has always been involved the most in the political issues of different countries all around the globe. >>


Oh REALLY........hmmm.....and whom summons us to do so???? Also...exactly how far back do you want to go with that since we've only been here a short while?????



<< If the country which made that mistake would offer its apologies and try to correct its mistake, things wouldn't look too bad either. It appears that the US has failed to do any of those things. >>



Yeah, your policy is GREAT! All of Europe should have just apologized to Hitler for being in his way too huh???? BTW.....what "mistake" exactly did we make in WWII?????? Or, in Korea??????? Or, in Vietnam????? Seems to me in at least two of these, we ended up there because of an allie!

LOL! Ella "buggered out" again when answer became hard to come by!

 

[ilksecap]

<< The gulf war was a case of excellent foreign policy - really no matter how you look at it (too bad hussein is still there though). >>



Please the gulf war may have started as good foreign policy but the end of it was horrible. After the war the Iraqi people revolted. We chose not to support them. The public reason was that we hoped there would be a bloodless coup but this is just propaganda. We did not support the revolution becasue it was against the wishes of one of our more oppresive allies, Turkey a fellow. During the gulf war we promised the Kurds(a ethnic group whose land spans Iraq and Turkey) a homeland after Sadam was defeated. Turkey ould never allow this however because they opress the Kurds in thier country. A Kurdish homeland bordering on Turkey would give the Turkish Kurds a base to operate from.
Now since the gulf war is over our policy in regards to Iraq is getting worse and worse. Our sanctions and continued bombing strengthen Sadam's power by giving him a scapegoat to blame the suffering of his people on. Furthermore they crush any revolution before it can happen by keeping the people starving and Sadam and his army well fed.
In addition these actions are some of the many that Osama and other radicals use to recruit memebers willing to give there lives in attacking the US and justify violence to them. Just as it is easy for you to shrug off the 5,000 Iraqi children that die every day(This is UNICEF's number not Sadam's) it is easy for those Osama preaches to to shrug off 6000 US deaths in light of the greater Cause. Osama may be a radical that wants to do away with the US and our society at any cost but most of his followers were convinced to join his cause by US foreign policy, and wouldn't be as radical if it wasn't so bad towards the middle east.
The US needs to stop supporting any government that commits horrible human rights violations such as Isreal and Turkey, Then we will be free to aid in good causes such as the overthrow of Sadam and there will be substantially fewer people who want to kill us.

 

[ToBeMe]

<< The US needs to stop supporting any government that commits horrible human rights violations such as Isreal >>


LOL! I don't think we are the ones whom should be afraid of this..........ALL of the Arab world should be though, it wouldn't be very long at all and Israel would be defeating them systematicly! but, none of you actually see that do you????

maybe you're right though......just pull out and wipe our hands of them.......israel will have PLENTY of land to expand itself soon enough................

 

[jjones]

i know, why don't we all just sing kumbaya and maybe osama and his boys will join in. elledan, your logic is so flawed it is incredible to believe. why don't we just give in to the demands of anyone who holds a gun to our head. the U.S. is far from perfect but quite a few countries side with us and our policies and we side with other countries and their policies. this isn't a perfect world; there will always be fanatical groups that will hate us for whatever reasons they wish. fine, now it's payback time and now it's time to cut the rug from under them.

 

[ToBeMe]

Hmmm.....now that Al Queda has announced that they ARE responsible for Sept. 11th AND have said they will continue killing Americans no matter what is your "disillusionment" gone?????