A bit disillusioned

[amok]

Will we really gain security from terrorist acts even if this campaign against bin Laden and his group is successful? The truth of the matter imo is that we are trying to wage war against a way of thinking by killing off its most visible patrons. The riots in Pakistan are a good demonstration of how flawed this method is in accomplishing anything long term. Our actions are more likely to increase our problems than solve them! Our heavy-handidness in the past is more or less the root of the problems we now face, yet we continue down the same path.

What I want to know is, what ideas are there floating around the general population about how to achieve a long-term solution to the problems we face? How do we stop the resentment and hate that are behind the actions of bin Laden and his group, that will be spawned in the next generation of terrorists that we will have to face if/when we eliminate the threat of the al Qaeda? How can we actually solve this problem?

 

[Elledan]

<< How can we actually solve this problem? >>

We'll have to understand the reasons for this hatred against the US. Only when this hatred ceases to exist, terrorism will stop.

I agree that the current actions are pretty senseless. It'll only increase the hatred against the US in that area and possibly lead to even more volunteers who join the terrorists.

 

[ToBeMe]

But what would no action have done? it would have made the entire US look like an easy target.....one that could be terrorised again, at any time, on any of these peoples whims! Did not Japan believe they were fighting for their religious beliefs during WWII? Yes, of course they were, the Japanese Empire believed they were the one "true" race & religion and were destined to rule the world! Now, I also realize this is a much more difficult battle, but, if these type of people come to see that attempting to terrorize the USA and any other country will bring them retaliation in the order now being delivered, how can one not at least hope it will severely curtail their will & desire knowing they will bear a much greater retaliation?

Also, will countries not be much more unlikely to be willing to harbour persons associated with terrorism knowing they will possibly bear the wrath of a majority of other countries? What do these people state they want??? (Bin ladens group(s) worldwide) They want first the US to vacate the Middleast completely correct? OK, fine, but what of the countries that want our presence there......and do not state that there are none because there are several! Second, how exactly would you expect us to react when blanket statements are made saying their goal is to wipe out the "American Way Of Life" and the "Infedels" whom reside there?????? Third, many of you have stated we need to support these countries ..........well, the US IS the number one supplier of aid to the country in question right now, and the area overall!

So, we should supply the aid, but, by the same token have no presence there even though they have demonstrated in the past that our aid goes only to the ones in power unless we oversee it's distribution? Also, we should not have retaliated even though they have stated their desire to continue terrorising us until we are gone along with several other countries???? What happens when the USA is gone then and they decide Canada, Mexico, Russia, Germany, or the Netherlands are their next target???? Do you really think they would stop until THEY were the ones in power????? Hell, I have nothing against them personally, and they can, and do come here to the US and live freely and practice their religion.......but, we're not allowed over there? And when they come and kill thousands of our people, and people from nearly every corner of the world we are suppose to say...."Ooops, hmmmm this was our mistake......we're sorry.....here, have several billion dollars more in aid AND we'll pull out of the area completely, we won't retaliate, and you can feel free to come over here and wreak more havok if you feel we are still not pleasing you?????" Sorry....I don't think ANY country would do that, and I think your views of how the US handles affairs abroad is skewed! it must be SO easy to sit back and second guess what we (The US) should be doing..........BUT, I think you would find it a MUCH more difficult task if you had to try to please every country in the world!

 

[Lucky]

get rid of israel. That wont happen, of course.

 

[Cyberian]

<< We'll have to understand the reasons for this hatred against the US. Only when this hatred ceases to exist, terrorism will stop.
>>


My education on World History and US Foreign Policy is sorely lacking.
Can someone spell out two or three instances of failed US foreign policy that I could research?

 

[oLLie]

Isn't the hatred for the US almost entirely due to the US' support of Israel? If that's true, I don't see how they'll stop hating us anytime soon because I don't see our support for Israel going changing anytime soon, what with them being our only true ally in the region.

Ollie

 

[StageLeft]

Can someone spell out two or three instances of failed US foreign policy that I could research?

How about the US used to support bin laden?

 

[hopefloats]

Under which Presidency did bin Laden get his CIA training?

 

[iamwiz82]

Bin Laden stated that he wants the US out of Saudi Arabia and Isreal. It wont ever happen, but those are his demands.

The problem with the Middle East is that every country there has an inflated ego, more inflated than the US, even. Every country believes they should be the dominant one since "civilization started there."

We should just let Isreal off of its leash, and see what happens. I would bet that they would steam roll through most of the region in a few years.

 

[HomeBrewerDude]

You seem to know what will happen in the future, extrapolating from current news media to future international crises. The PROBLEM with foriegn policy is that you don't know what will be the long term effect of a current action (or inaction). That is why policy is set by known quantities.

 

[StageLeft]

The PROBLEM with foriegn policy is that you don't know what will be the long term effect of a current action (or inaction).

Yep, even though they supported bin laden you can't expect the US to "change its foreign policy" based upon that, because in other cases their policy has worked well, such as in the Gulf War and more recently in Kosovo.

 

[Tripleshot]

>>>How about the US used to support bin laden? <<<

Let's put this to rest. At the time the US supplied Bin Laden, he was fighting a war waged by the Russians who were hell bent on expansionism.If Russia had prevailed, the people of Afghanistan would be learning russian now. The US viewed that as wrong. What the the Bin Laden was supplied is still questionable,but certainly it changed the outcome.

now the sorry SOB has decided to take over Afghanistan for himself,as a basecamp(Al Qaeda) to spread his vision of Islamic law and sow the seeds of terrorism against Isreal and the US.

These are things that we find reprehensable. But that alone did not cause our actions today. The bastard organized the events of 9/11 and we, with the vast majority of the rest of the world are now resolved to rid this planet of Osama and all who support him and his brand of rule and law.

Skoorb, I thought better of you before. Now I have my doubts. Enlighten us as to why this analysis doesn't meet your recollection of events.

 

[jjones]

anyone who thinks we will forever put an end to terrorism is foolish. there always has been some form of terrorism and there always will. you will never stop the individual or small groups of terrorists. that's not what this war is about. this war is about stopping the large networks of terrorists that we have let develop and forcing the countries that sponsor them to stop. we've been dealing with this modern form of terrorism since the 70's and quite frankly, i'm sick of it. the day of the WTC tragedy, i actually had a thought that perhaps the terrorists had gone too far this time and what they did was just sick enough for us to finally take on this problem full force.

also, you need to understand that these people do not speak for the arab nations, their governments or the islamic people. they are pursuing their own agendas, for their own reasons. butt laden is from Saudi Arabia but he doesn't represent the Saudi government when he says wants us out of his country. is this our failed foreign policy i hear people speak of? the israelis are certainly no princes but we support them as a democratic ally in the region. we've had our ups and downs with them but they've been the staunchest of allies in that area. can you say the same for any of the arab countries. and yes this is about protecting our interests. i sometimes wonder if anyone remembers the cold war or if any one is even old enough to appreciate what that meant.

 

[StageLeft]

It meets it fine. I was merely pointing out an example of what could, at the very least, be perceived as failed foreign policy, because he is now responsible for this. Like I said, foreign policy is never so easy as totally correct or totally wrong because as things change what could have been right at one time can be wrong at another. The gulf war was a case of excellent foreign policy - really no matter how you look at it (too bad hussein is still there though). Vietnam war is a highly questionable one.

 

[Pliablemoose]

Elledan, I just don't understand your logic, and I haven't seen a suggestion as to what the U.S. should do, other than understand the terrorist.

Let's see a suggestion, bearing in mind that 5,000 civilians in the U.S. were just killed.

 

[Cyberian]

<< Can someone spell out two or three instances of failed US foreign policy that I could research?

How about the US used to support bin laden? >>


This is where I get confused. Was the US wrong to support Bin Laden at the time, knowing what we did then, or did it turn out to be a poor decision only in hindsight?

 

[iamwiz82]

<< Elledan, I just don't understand your logic, and I haven't seen a suggestion as to what the U.S. should do, other than understand the terrorist.

Let's see a suggestion, bearing in mind that 5,000 civilians in the U.S. were just killed. >>



Elledan can make all the idiotic comments he wants. He is in a country which is not a major power in the world, and just follows that Germany, the US, and England do. He's just like an armchair quarterback.

 

[Elledan]

<< Elledan, I just don't understand your logic, and I haven't seen a suggestion as to what the U.S. should do, other than understand the terrorist.

Let's see a suggestion, bearing in mind that 5,000 civilians in the U.S. were just killed. >>

I already stated what must be done. It's the only long-term solution. Violence, for example, is merely a short-term solution. Things will be quiet for a while, but then another series of attacks will shatter many lives in the US again. Is that what you or anyone else wants?

This hatred for the US is the disease, terrorism is a symptom. Why trying to fight the symptoms of a disease if you know that those symptoms will return as long as the disease is still present?

For this reason, I see the current attacks against Afghanistan (officially the Taliban) as the execution of a short-term solution and therefore futile.

 

[HomeBrewerDude]

this thread is going no where fast

 

[Elledan]

<<

<< Elledan, I just don't understand your logic, and I haven't seen a suggestion as to what the U.S. should do, other than understand the terrorist.

Let's see a suggestion, bearing in mind that 5,000 civilians in the U.S. were just killed. >>



Elledan can make all the idiotic comments he wants. He is in a country which is not a major power in the world, and just follows that Germany, the US, and England do. He's just like an armchair quarterback. >>

Thanks for your very intelligent and insightful comments. I just wish everyone was as open-minded as you are.

 

[Pliablemoose]

Klinton pulled the rug out from under the Mujahaden, Then ObL, who is probably bipolar decided we were encroaching on the sovernity on Saudi Arabia, his homeland by keeping US bases in Saudi. We were the devil before, and he became more convinced during the Gulf War.

Plus, we're serving as a template for the modern world, we allow our women to vote, and go to school, we allow people to watch porn on TV, etc, etc, same crap that makes Jerry Faldwell think our country will go to hell. Our cultural influences have been as infuriating to the extremist Muslims as our foreign policy.

 

[Elledan]

<< Plus, we're serving as a template for the modern world, we allow our women to vote, and go to school, we allow people to watch porn on TV, etc, etc, >>

You mean like in Europe, Australia, Canada, New Zealand etc. etc.?

The US doesn't serve as a template for anything. It just thinks it is one.

 

[Pliablemoose]

Elledan, I didn't make fun of you, & I would appreciate an honest answer, what would you have us do?

 

[Elledan]

<< Elledan, I didn't make fun of you, & I would appreciate an honest answer, what would you have us do? >>

Find out the cause of this hatred in so many countries for the US and do something about it. It's not a simple solution, but at least it's a long-term one, until some other president and/or American companies screw up again.

 

[Pliablemoose]

<< Find out the cause of this hatred in so many countries for the US and do something about it. It's not a simple solution, but at least it's a long-term one, until some other president and/or American companies screw up again. >>



Ok, so I walk up to the biggest bully on the playground & ask him why he hates the kid he just beat up.

Again: You seen pretty good @ shooting down every suggestion, what would you do if the same thing happened in the Netherlands? (I'm going to pretend I'm not 1/2 Norwegian from now on)