9mm Sucks B@lls > Give 'em back the .45

[Pliablemoose]

Had 2 GSW's in my ER last week, male & female 1 9mm to the head, one into the right kidney, both walked in, very little bleeding & both were discharged the next morning & walked out.

9mm is a useless round for most situations:|

 

[308nato]

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose
Had 2 GSW's in my ER last week, male & female 1 9mm to the head, one into the right kidney, both walked in, very little bleeding & both were discharged the next morning & walked out.

9mm is a useless round for most situations:|

That is the kind of feedback that is pertinent (unfortunately).

 

[Deleted member 4644]

Obviously, she wasnt hit in a vital part of the head.

 

[rbhawcroft]

khat Pronunciation Key (kät)n. An evergreen shrub (Catha edulis) native to tropical East Africa, having dark green opposite leaves that are chewed fresh for their stimulating effects. A tealike beverage prepared from the leaves of this plant. This stuff is like coffee, have you ever drank enough coffee to make your mouth froth? White people aren't insane, only gooks and towel heads right. You do realize the rasicm that this kind of sh!t connotes don't you?[/quote]


its qaat and its mainly grown in yemen and ne africa the somalies in mogadishu were all on it.
you chew it for five days and then less every day to maintian doping and you get a high during the afternoon and then drousy in the evening - the rangers attacked at midday when they were all high and spaced.

@Originally posted by: Beau6183
Hey, if you know how to use it propperly, a 9mm is just as effective as a .45 and carries more rounds.[/quote]

everyone konws 9mm pistol and 5.56 rifle rounds are not guarantees man stoppers even at close range, but 7.62 and 308 and 45 are.

if you are a good shot? wtf so are you going to aim for his kock as his levels an AK47 at you?

also there is a logistics aremument in all ammo except sniper and pistol rounds because they are only used in small volumes and should be much more effective per round than high use rounds like 7.62 or 5.56

vietnam: 1 sniper kill to about 1.8 rounds.

Under the duress of combat hitting someone in the head with a handgun is no small feat according to my family (my father is a decorated WWII combat vet and my bro the same in Nam). I'm also told the ammo used in the military 9mm overpenetrates and that hitting someone jacked up on something with mulitple shots that aren't instantly lethal will not stop them from shooting back..

in the falklans two rifles were issued a armalite and a SLR 7.62. Apparrently 1 round in the torso from guess which would drop them, and there were reports of upto three torso hiits and the enemy could still raise a rifle to return fire with the other rifle, so which was which?

What really needs to be done is to get rid of those century-old prohibitions on "dum-dum" bullets in combat and give our troops decent man-stopping cartridges.

yeah good comment, lits concentrate on maiming rather than wounding.

also in cqb you are likely to enter rooms with multiple dased - hopefully - occupants then you want an accurate low recoil large clip pistol. but for more open battle the 45 would be better.

in terms of burgular stopping, well 9mm/45 what does it matter if he is disorineted with a pistol. but if he has a shotty or a auto you had better kill him with the first round or else.


in terms of admin personnel if they have to use their pistol I think they are better off with 15 9mm rather than 10 whatever, they are accountants remember.


@ pliablemoose, having seen close range wounds from the insides would you rather take one 9mm round or one 45 round in the torso?

 

[rbhawcroft]

Originally posted by: incallisto

Originally posted by: Scipionix

Originally posted by: 308nato

Originally posted by: ScipionixWait a minute, what's a 308 Nato?

A 308nato flies out of this very fast and very straight.😀

No, a .308 Winchester or a 7.62mm NATO flies out of it very fast and very straight 🙂 But that does look like a damned fine rifle you got there.

Speaking of fine rifles, a friend of mine picked up this hot number: surgical precision anyone?

The IRA used Browning 50's in the 90's in Northern Ireland. There were probably only one or two snipers and they killed a lot of soldiers, though hopefully we whacked them quietly because only one got imprisoned for it.

 

[Pliablemoose]

Obviously, she wasnt hit in a vital part of the head.

Hit just above the base of her skull, didn't even fracture it...

And yes, I'd take a nine to the torso if I had a choice, I grew up shooting a 44 mag, my current favorite rounds are 357sig & 40 S&W.

 

[Tominator]

Some British influence here?

One of the big factors that lead to the adoption of .45ACP in the first place was the great old Webley revolver in .455!

 

[911paramedic]

In the navy we used 45's for their knockdown power, plain and simple.

 

[UltraQuiet]

Originally posted by: Tominator

There are two Master Chief SEALS stationed here. Shall I ask them next week for the definitive word on sidearms?

Want their answer? Sorry, but SEALS are experts in their line of work and it is decidely NOT the work of the normal soldier!

All else being equal I'd seriously wonder about them if they picked a 9MM over a .45! You can tell them I said that!😎

Most Seals have never seen combat let alone a protracted conflict wherein support from the rear for extended periods was in question. Their mission is totally different than the everyday grunt.

OK Tom, whatever. Don't read it when I post it. SEALS are seeing a lot more combat not just the intel gathering, sniping they were stood up for. Their rep as been to their detriment in many ways because they are being used in ways that were never intended. The mission Neil Roberts was on when he died is a perfect example of what I am talking about.

 

[Tominator]

Sorry bud, but their requirements are worlds away from the everyday soldier...

In 1988 I was running 12 tables at a gun show in OK city and happened to talk at length with a 20 year old from Afganistan that was in the US healing from his SECOND wounding by the Soviets. Even he was lusting after a 'Government Colt' in the vaunted .45ACP!

He had some very scarry scars and stories that were amazing and sad. English was his third language if I remember.

I've talked to Seals, FBI, Federal Marshals and Cheifs of Police and everyday soldiers. The reputation of the .45ACP far exceeds reality and even if the stories were half true, he old 45 has twice the reputation in actual combat as the 9mm.

The 9MM is a better round only in a full auto weapon. In my day I shot in competition in the Expert Class with the MP5 and pump shotgun.
I'm a pretty good pistol shot but not an expert. You want to talk about ballistics? Wound channels? Hydrostatic shook? Powders? Calibers? As far as the the Glock or Colt Government Model, I'm as near an expert in their design and operation as you are likely to meet.

I've only driven a truck for ten years. I've been involved with firearms for most of my life. I've built and modified more guns than most folks will ever shoot. I'm no SEAL or Green Beret/Special Op guy although I've a wiorking knowledge of the tactics. I'll bet I can tear down, clean and reassemble more weapons than most SEALS can.
Ask your SEAL buddies if they've shot a BAR, STW44? How about a quad mount browning .30?

I can literally take an AK47 apart blindfolded and put it together again, though I may be a little out of practice.😉

I've built M16s from buckets of parts....little parts!

 

[Pliablemoose]

Don't know how current this is: Seals Weapons

I own a Glock 26 (9mm) becuase of it's size, & have a Calico 9mm pistol that holds 50 rounds. After seeing the 2 GSW's, my Glock 26 is for sale.

A full auto like the H&K is a whole different animal than a pistol...

 

[Tominator]

have a Calico 9mm pistol that holds 50 rounds.

I've held but not shot the full auto version....

 

[Pliablemoose]

The Calico is an unusual weapon, I have the semi-auto version. Cool thing is it's classified as a pistol in the US & I could carry it for my concealed weapon here in TX (just can't figure out how to hide it😉)

 

[Tominator]

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose
The Calico is an unusual weapon, I have the semi-auto version. Cool thing is it's classified as a pistol in the US & I could carry it for my concealed weapon here in TX (just can't figure out how to hide it😉)

LOL! It is unique, that's for sure....

 

[glenn1]

I'm surprised this thread is still alive and kicking.

Sorry bud, but their requirements are worlds away from the everyday soldier...

Perhaps. I'll leave that for others to debate. I return to my original premise however, that a sidearm (in whatever caliber) is pretty much a nice tool to have at hand, but not something which was ever considered a mission stopper in any sense. I looked at my sidearm the way i looked at my chemical protective gear, something which we all carried but if i ever needed it, i was pretty much FUBAR'ed anyway.

 

[Scipionix]

I don't care how many stories people hear or tell, the data simply do not show that the .45ACP is significantyly superior to the 9mm in actual shootings. All the BS about the intangible superiority of a bigger bullet simply don't have any proof. Now for every round I could shoot from a .45, I could shoot two from a 9mm and shoot them more accurately. Unless someone can produce something more than anecdotes to show why the .45 is so superior, they have no business bitching about replacing sidearms yet again.

 

[Tominator]

Originally posted by: Scipionix
I don't care how many stories people hear or tell, the data simply do not show that the .45ACP is significantyly superior to the 9mm in actual shootings. All the BS about the intangible superiority of a bigger bullet simply don't have any proof. Now for every round I could shoot from a .45, I could shoot two from a 9mm and shoot them more accurately. Unless someone can produce something more than anecdotes to show why the .45 is so superior, they have no business bitching about replacing sidearms yet again.

Too bad thay did not use your analogy when they went to the 9MM....

 

[sean2002]

Thats exactally why I carry a my Custom Ed Brown 1911 loaded with 230g.r Golden Sabers everywhere I go.

 

[Scipionix]

Originally posted by: Tominator

Originally posted by: Scipionix
I don't care how many stories people hear or tell, the data simply do not show that the .45ACP is significantyly superior to the 9mm in actual shootings. All the BS about the intangible superiority of a bigger bullet simply don't have any proof. Now for every round I could shoot from a .45, I could shoot two from a 9mm and shoot them more accurately. Unless someone can produce something more than anecdotes to show why the .45 is so superior, they have no business bitching about replacing sidearms yet again.

Too bad thay did not use your analogy when they went to the 9MM....

There's no analogy here, so I have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[GarlicBreath]

If the 9mm was a good round, the Pope would be dead.

The .45 auto is a proven man-stopper. 9mm ball isn't even a good pope-stopper.

 

[Scipionix]

Originally posted by: GarlicBreath
If the 9mm was a good round, the Pope would be dead.

The .45 auto is a proven man-stopper. 9mm ball isn't even a good pope-stopper.

.45 ACP 230 gr. FMJ and 9x19 115 gr. FMJ are 62.89% and 62.26% effective in achieving one-shot stops. Of course if you don't get a one-shot stop, you have 14 more 9mm rounds but only 6 more .45 rounds. . .

 

[burnedout]

Originally posted by: Scipionix

Originally posted by: GarlicBreath
If the 9mm was a good round, the Pope would be dead.

The .45 auto is a proven man-stopper. 9mm ball isn't even a good pope-stopper.

.45 ACP 230 gr. FMJ and 9x19 115 gr. FMJ are 62.89% and 62.26% effective in achieving one-shot stops. Of course if you don't get a one-shot stop, you have 14 more 9mm rounds but only 6 more .45 rounds. . .

Not sure where your data regarding "one-shot stops" comes from. However, if the data comes from the Marshall and Sanow study, the study was shot full of holes (no pun intended) by:

Association of Firearm and Toolmark Examiners (AFTE)

Geoff Kotzar of Case Western Reserve University

International Wound Ballistics Association

Furthermore, the FBI wrote a rather informative, relevent piece which you can find reprinted here The author includes some insightful comments regarding the physical, ballistic differences between 9x19 and .45 ACP.

 

[rbhawcroft]

if i was shot id rather a 9mm as its more likely to pass straight through where as a fat slow heavy 45 might stop inside and dicharge all its energy. also the one/ two round argument i think is limited in a battle sit.

 

[Balthazar]

Originally posted by: smp

Originally posted by: 308nato

Originally posted by: smp In another fight, a Ranger fired several torso shots with a .45 pistol before his foe fell. "When we looked at the corpses, we found their mouths full of khat," he says. "It was like these guys were pumped up on PCP. With the Beretta, I'd have had to fire all 15 rounds and then thrown the pistol at this wild-eyed dude."

My pop has always said the same thing about the chinese troops that they cacked in Korea. He said they would just keep coming till their body was literally dismembered from taking hits. They would find their cheeks stuffed with some sort of opium/heroin pasty sh!t. So why don't you come roll your eyes at pop while he tells you some stories for bedtime there p00py.

khat Pronunciation Key (kät)
n.
An evergreen shrub (Catha edulis) native to tropical East Africa, having dark green opposite leaves that are chewed fresh for their stimulating effects.
A tealike beverage prepared from the leaves of this plant.

This stuff is like coffee, have you ever drank enough coffee to make your mouth froth? White people aren't insane, only gooks and towel heads right. You do realize the rasicm that this kind of sh!t connotes don't you?

Just out of curiosity jerkwad, who used the terms "beloved patriot" and "beloved patriot" first?
I think that would be YOU, HE said "chinese troops".

Racist.....crap, if anyone sounds racist it's you....
What a friggin' retard....

 

[Mister T]

Originally posted by: glenn1

can someone please explain the different ammunition types?

I have no clue what people mean by +P and hydrashok

Certainly. For small arms (revolvers, pistols, rifles, etc.), there are essentially two major types of ammunition available and in common use, and numerous other types which are far less common. I'll go over the two major types first

First of all, the most basic type of ammunition, which the military is required by the rules of war to use, that being ball ammunition (also known as full metal jacket, or FMJ, or copper jacketed). Essentially, it's probably what you think of when you think bullet. It's going to be one solid piece projectile.

The second major type are expandable rounds. There are slightly different types (jacketed hollow-point, softpoint, etc.) they're all designed to do essentially the same thing, have the bullet expand into a mushroom style shape upon initial penetration. A bullet which expands has a larger cross-section, which does more damage. Hydra-Shocks are simply a well-regarded name brand of hollowpoint ammunition, made by the company "Federal."

As for the other types of rounds (which have their devotees, but represent a tiny fraction of sales), the biggies would probably be frangible (bullets designed to shatter into tiny shards on impact), flachette rounds (think a steel dart shot from a gun), non-lethal rounds (think plastic/rubber bullets, bean bag ammunition and such).

The term +P is a technical term, which refers to a high velocity loading of a particular cartridge. Essentially, a particular round has a set specification for the amount and type of powder loading it's supposed to get, and a spec for the amount of pressure the round generates when fired. A +P round indicates one which has been "juiced up" to a higher than specification loading factor. It's a marketing term, kinda like how you can have a V8 engine with a Turbocharger. Think of a +P loading as a hot rodded bullet.


Here's a wonderful site which will give you tons of information from someone incredibly much more versed about the subject of ballistics than anyone here, it's worth a look. It has some good photos and charts as well.


The mechanics of terminal ballistics

Thank you 🙂