8GB w/q6600 vs 8GB w/e6750 and IP35-E

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Tweakin

Platinum Member
Feb 7, 2000
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Originally posted by: Drsignguy
Well after many attempts, I have taken the words of wisdom from Tweakin, "it is what it is" I have tried to accomplish the ever so daunting task of getting 8GB of Ram stable @ 3.2 and to no avail, even though I can get the Q6600 stable @ 3.2. I did read the threads in here about tFRC and made adjustments but still same results... So, I have dropped to 3.0 with a VID of 1.3250 and vcore set to 1.4000v in bios, adjusted settings for Ram (if stable, will post settings) and is running Prime95 for 40 minutes now, so far, so good. With a high VID and Max Ram, seems to me a high hurdle to leap over. Doesn't mean "it" can't be done, Quite a bit more difficult to achieve. I will continue but, Not today. I did however "Lap" both cpu and Tuniq and I am happy with the results. At least my temps are good.

That's where I was also...I can do 3.1 all day at 1.3325 vcore with 1 bump on the MCH, but that's about it unless (and I don't know for sure as I haven't tried it) I pump massive voltage into the board.

One thing that helped me get ot 3.1 was increasing the GTLref from 63% to 69%...at least it appeared to. I'm done with my quad...going to sell it this week.
 

Drsignguy

Platinum Member
Mar 24, 2002
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76
Aww. Bummer. I was hoping you would continue to give the Q6600 all the respect it so well deserves. But as I see, you did your best. I hope (ed) you would have had the best of results but as I can understand fully, What a pain in the ars it is! So, with all the respect in the world, "Hail to Tweakin", sell me your quad!:D
 

Syzygies

Senior member
Mar 7, 2008
229
0
0
I'll be trying all this in the next few weeks. Meanwhile,

(1) Time trials show that while memory speeds matter, cpu speeds matter far more. It depends on the application, but I've always seen a 10:1 ratio or better, saying get the cpu speed as high as it goes, then dumb down the memory subsystem until it can keep up.

(2) The "stunt" suicide run overclocks on the forums we make fun of all dumb down the memory subsystem.

(3) We're all sure that it's the memory subsystem that can't handle the traffic. To be completely simplistic, say we're doubling the traffic by going to 8 GB. This argues that we should dumb down the memory subsystem by half. By (1), that will have only a secondary effect on performance.

So why do I get the feeling that no one has slowed their memory to a crawl? Go look again at 4 Ghz suicide runs, with memory at 7-7-7-x, or worse.

Overclocking is like flying blindfolded in a large dimensional cave, with the only indications of the shape coming when we bang into a wall. It makes the six dimensional sport of windsurfing look like child's play. Yet standard operating procedure seems to be to fly in a preferred straight line until we bang into a wall, then step back.

I got the idea from Kris Boughton's articles to map Vcore over a range of speeds up to my target speed. I make a spreadsheet grid, with one axis giving the voltage steps offered by my BIOS, and the other axis my FSB frequency, in steps of 3 or so, with all other settings held constant. Mark cells that can or can't boot and pass five minutes of a stability test. Every now and then, take a break, run a cell 24 hours and mark it as stable. One sees a very clean curve. Try voltages under stock; the curve goes both ways.

This curve does eventually spike upward, but other factors intervene, first: Overclocks near 3.6 Ghz need other mobo voltages tweaked, etc. But one's first reaction is always "needs salt", let's up Vcore, that'll force it to work. Seeing the entire curve, I can see when other factors start to intervene, when a knee-jerk Vcore fix stops making sense, I instead need to learn something else.

In other words, I'm mapping how a two-dimensional plane intersects the overclocking cave, giving me much better information about shape than just using sample lines.

Here, the two dimensional plane of interest is cpu frequency, and memory traffic. Each of these is a subsystem. One already needs to know (as people here do) what Vcore it takes for the cpu frequencies one wants. Calming memory involves basically all memory parameters, e.g. taking 4-4-4-x in steps down to 7-7-7-y, raising tRD and tRFC, etc. If these aren't all calmed down at once, getting most of them right won't matter.

Think of Apollo 13. Three guys would have died up in that can, if engineers on the ground hadn't manage to calm down every subsystem to get under their revised power budget. We've got to throttle memory traffic, it isn't going to be rocket science.

I simply don't believe that one hits a sharp cutoff, independent of memory settings. There's got to be shape there, to be found only by mapping exactly how much memory has to be relaxed to slow down enough to continue, stepping up the FSB a few clicks at a time.

The 10x multiplier of the Q6700 does start to look good here, it will allow 3.6 Ghz with a FSB of 360. The prices are no longer 2:1, I'll switch if I have to.
 

Tweakin

Platinum Member
Feb 7, 2000
2,532
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71
Thanks Drsignnguy...I think some of it is the board and the rest is that I will not push voltage just to achieve a minimal gain. If it comes, great...if it doesn't, that's ok also.

Wish you the best of luck. One week of working on the beast day and night is enough for me. I'm a dedicated enthusiast, but I have work to do also...and as I say, it is what it is...
 

Drsignguy

Platinum Member
Mar 24, 2002
2,264
0
76
Originally posted by: Tweakin
Thanks Drsignnguy...I think some of it is the board and the rest is that I will not push voltage just to achieve a minimal gain. If it comes, great...if it doesn't, that's ok also.

Wish you the best of luck. One week of working on the beast day and night is enough for me. I'm a dedicated enthusiast, but I have work to do also...and as I say, it is what it is...


Not a problem there Tweakin, And thanks to you. I will be continuing this saga as soon as I can. My "in the real world" work is keeping me pretty busy.

 

Tweakin

Platinum Member
Feb 7, 2000
2,532
0
71
Well...sold my quad and I'm sittin back at 3.6GHz with 4GB of memory. Here are the specifics:

Vid idle.........1.336
Vid Load.......1.312
Vdimm.........1.90
MCH.............1.29
Timings.........6-6-6-18
Idle temp......33
Load temp.....56

If this runs stable all night, and it should...I might throw the additional memory back in and see what I have to tweak to get it stable...if I can.

All I need now is a 45nm and 9x and I'd be set!
 

Drsignguy

Platinum Member
Mar 24, 2002
2,264
0
76
So, you put your e6750 back in huh? And vdroop almost gone? Hmmm, Quads are just plain power hungry. Keep us posted:)
 

Dadofamunky

Platinum Member
Jan 4, 2005
2,184
0
0
Originally posted by: Syzygies
I'll be trying all this in the next few weeks. Meanwhile,

(1) Time trials show that while memory speeds matter, cpu speeds matter far more. It depends on the application, but I've always seen a 10:1 ratio or better, saying get the cpu speed as high as it goes, then dumb down the memory subsystem until it can keep up.

(2) The "stunt" suicide run overclocks on the forums we make fun of all dumb down the memory subsystem.

(3) We're all sure that it's the memory subsystem that can't handle the traffic. To be completely simplistic, say we're doubling the traffic by going to 8 GB. This argues that we should dumb down the memory subsystem by half. By (1), that will have only a secondary effect on performance.

So why do I get the feeling that no one has slowed their memory to a crawl? Go look again at 4 Ghz suicide runs, with memory at 7-7-7-x, or worse.

Overclocking is like flying blindfolded in a large dimensional cave, with the only indications of the shape coming when we bang into a wall. It makes the six dimensional sport of windsurfing look like child's play. Yet standard operating procedure seems to be to fly in a preferred straight line until we bang into a wall, then step back.

I got the idea from Kris Boughton's articles to map Vcore over a range of speeds up to my target speed. I make a spreadsheet grid, with one axis giving the voltage steps offered by my BIOS, and the other axis my FSB frequency, in steps of 3 or so, with all other settings held constant. Mark cells that can or can't boot and pass five minutes of a stability test. Every now and then, take a break, run a cell 24 hours and mark it as stable. One sees a very clean curve. Try voltages under stock; the curve goes both ways.

This curve does eventually spike upward, but other factors intervene, first: Overclocks near 3.6 Ghz need other mobo voltages tweaked, etc. But one's first reaction is always "needs salt", let's up Vcore, that'll force it to work. Seeing the entire curve, I can see when other factors start to intervene, when a knee-jerk Vcore fix stops making sense, I instead need to learn something else.

In other words, I'm mapping how a two-dimensional plane intersects the overclocking cave, giving me much better information about shape than just using sample lines.

Here, the two dimensional plane of interest is cpu frequency, and memory traffic. Each of these is a subsystem. One already needs to know (as people here do) what Vcore it takes for the cpu frequencies one wants. Calming memory involves basically all memory parameters, e.g. taking 4-4-4-x in steps down to 7-7-7-y, raising tRD and tRFC, etc. If these aren't all calmed down at once, getting most of them right won't matter.

Think of Apollo 13. Three guys would have died up in that can, if engineers on the ground hadn't manage to calm down every subsystem to get under their revised power budget. We've got to throttle memory traffic, it isn't going to be rocket science.

I simply don't believe that one hits a sharp cutoff, independent of memory settings. There's got to be shape there, to be found only by mapping exactly how much memory has to be relaxed to slow down enough to continue, stepping up the FSB a few clicks at a time.

The 10x multiplier of the Q6700 does start to look good here, it will allow 3.6 Ghz with a FSB of 360. The prices are no longer 2:1, I'll switch if I have to.

That's a hella good post. Lots of food for thought there. I think I'm going to have a closer look at trying that later this week...
 

Tweakin

Platinum Member
Feb 7, 2000
2,532
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71
Originally posted by: Drsignguy
I feel the pain that Tweakin is going through. Only differance is that I wont sell the Quad, Getting the Q6600 @ 3.2 isn't the problem. Have it stable and ran OCCT ( 8 hrs, CPU infinite ) without errors. The problem is the 8 gig of memory. Just cant seem to get it stable ( yet ). Adjust this, adjust that....Hmmmm what a PITA!:disgust:

You are so right. For anyone who is looking at a quad, it is not a problem getting the chips up to speed...it's keeping them cool and stable. I'm about to run all my checks through again with 8GB and my 6750 and see what happens. I've been stable on stock volts for 14+ hours.

I also feel that some of this is from this board. It's a great economy board, but with the vdroop being what it is I'm sure this is not helping.
 

Drsignguy

Platinum Member
Mar 24, 2002
2,264
0
76
Keep it up Tweakin, keep us informed!:)........BTW, I think Im going to read and re-read the post that "Syzygies" laid out for us. Seems to me there is some great information in there and I will have to go over this a few times to grasp it all. Sometimes after a heavy day of real world work, my brain is mush!
 

Tweakin

Platinum Member
Feb 7, 2000
2,532
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71
The Quad is gone, and I'm sitting at 3.6GHz with 4GB of memory, or 3.5GHz with 8GB. Both have run 10+ hours Prime Stable. Here are some pics:

3.6GHz w/4GB
3.5GHz w/8GB
8GB @ DDR-876
MemSet @ DDR-876
Real Temp @ 3.5GHz idle
Real Temp @ 3.5GHz Loaded

You can see that I had to up the vcore to get to 3.5 with the additional memory which was unexpected. With the Quad this was not obtainable, best I could get on this board was a stable 3.0.

Temps are also now back in line. The above pics were taken in a room about 20-21c.

Memory has been tightened up from 7-6-6-6-18. VTT, GTLref and back to stock settings, MCH was bumped to 1.29 from 1.25 for testing on the 8GB. The Quad just killed this system...too much brawn.

I forgot to mention...when I pulled the board from the case to reinstall the Ninja, I decided to re-apply some Artic Cream to the MCH and ICH. What I found was that the MCH had "cooked" the thermal cream that I applied when I first got the board. It was just dry and cracked...hardly any moisture left, probably from all the additional heat. Crazy huh....
 

Drsignguy

Platinum Member
Mar 24, 2002
2,264
0
76
Question, @ 3.6 with 4Gb your voltage is @ 1.312 in cpu-z @ 3.5 with 8Gb you had to up the voltage to adjust for the max memory? I guess what I am asking is that with the added memory the cpu takes a hit. And the more cores = more juice. Nice job BTW! :)


Edit: or is this the vdroop you have been talking about...
 

Tweakin

Platinum Member
Feb 7, 2000
2,532
0
71
Originally posted by: Drsignguy
Question, @ 3.6 with 4Gb your voltage is @ 1.312 in cpu-z @ 3.5 with 8Gb you had to up the voltage to adjust for the max memory? I guess what I am asking is that with the added memory the cpu takes a hit. And the more cores = more juice. Nice job BTW! :)
Edit: or is this the vdroop you have been talking about...

Yes...if I understand you correctly. 3.5GHz idle has a vid of 1.344, loaded it is 1.312, which is nothing compared to the vdroop of the Quad. The Quad averaged a vdroop of .06~.07 and the e6750 is in the neighboorhood of .03, which if you double (twice as many cores running) is about where the Quad was.

As for your assessment of the cpu taking a hit, I agree. Not a major hit, but a hit all the same, and when you add up all those "little" hits, you end up loosing valuable MHz. I have also noticed that Vista does like the additional memory. With 4GB I had about 2.7GB free, with 8GB I have 6.4 free, which means it used roughly 1.3GB/3.6GB respectively.