8GB system DRAM in 2023

[BFG10K]

Yes, I know you can find many gaming examples where 16GB and even 32GB can make a difference, and I'm not saying this is a good idea.

But I thought it was interesting how well 8GB did here. The actual performance hit ended up coming from dropping to single channel rather than the capacity, and also connecting to an online server.

I think it's because a fast NVMe mitigates a lot of the performance hit from using a pagefile. The decent Gen4 ones basically have the same bandwidth as slow DDR3.

 

[mikeymikec]

"I didn't want to use a single 8GB module like some kind of animal..."

 

[bba-tcg]

But why? DDR4 and to some extent, DDR5, is dirt cheap. Every system I sell has a baseline of 32 GB.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Every system I sell has a baseline of 32 GB.

I picked up a number of Silicon Power 32GB kits of DDR4-3200 RAM for $52 ea. Don't look back. 32GB should be the minimum system RAM qty. for 2023 gaming PCs.

 

[mikeymikec]

But why? DDR4 and to some extent, DDR5, is dirt cheap. Every system I sell has a baseline of 32 GB.

Huh. I've sold one system with 32GB RAM (or was it 64) which was in 2016 The vast majority of systems I sell are for average users (no gaming). I presume yours are mostly gaming/more than average use. For me selling 8/16GB systems is common, and adding an extra £50 for something (>16GB) that user is simply never ever going to utilise is just a waste.

I plan to do a new build (AMD 7000 series) hopefully this year; I was thinking of going with 16GB because the 12GB RAM in my (now Haswell, was AM3) system has rarely been made good use of (I went from 4 to 12 because getting a pair of 4GB modules was better value back then than 2x2GB); I think the only reason I'd go with 32GB RAM would either be an unexpected need for it or an obscenely good price on it. As it is, it's an extra £40 that can go into something else that I'll make immediate use of. It's something that can easily be added later if necessary. If I had to guess, I'd say my current build went for a good 5 years until I had to add the extra RAM. Looking back at my PC specs spreadsheets over the years, 4GB DDR4 was selling for the price that I now buy 8GB DDR4 for. Why not wait.

 

[bba-tcg]

Huh. I've sold one system with 32GB RAM (or was it 64) which was in 2016 The vast majority of systems I sell are for average users (no gaming). I presume yours are mostly gaming/more than average use. For me selling 8/16GB systems is common, and adding an extra £50 for something (>16GB) that user is simply never ever going to utilise is just a waste.

I plan to do a new build (AMD 7000 series) hopefully this year; I was thinking of going with 16GB because the 12GB RAM in my (now Haswell, was AM3) system has rarely been made good use of (I went from 4 to 12 because getting a pair of 4GB modules was better value back then than 2x2GB); I think the only reason I'd go with 32GB RAM would either be an unexpected need for it or an obscenely good price on it. As it is, it's an extra £40 that can go into something else that I'll make immediate use of. It's something that can easily be added later if necessary. If I had to guess, I'd say my current build went for a good 5 years until I had to add the extra RAM. Looking back at my PC specs spreadsheets over the years, 4GB DDR4 was selling for the price that I now buy 8GB DDR4 for. Why not wait.

By all means, you do you. But when I can buy 32 GB DDR4 for $60 (https://www.newegg.com/g-skill-32gb-288-pin-ddr4-sdram/p/N82E16820232091?Item=N82E16820232091), I will. Why is it up to me to decide that a customer won't use it?

 

[VirtualLarry]

I plan to do a new build (AMD 7000 series) hopefully this year; I was thinking of going with 16GB

You should really consider 64GB. I went with 32GB DDR5-6000 expo for my Ryzen 7600 rig - I can't fully utilize all 12 threads all of the time for scientific compute with YOYO@Home, because 32GB RAM isn't enough.

 

[mikeymikec]

By all means, you do you. But when I can buy 32 GB DDR4 for $60 (https://www.newegg.com/g-skill-32gb-288-pin-ddr4-sdram/p/N82E16820232091?Item=N82E16820232091), I will. Why is it up to me to decide that a customer won't use it?

My relationship with my customers might differ from yours insofar as I visit them in their homes for maintenance purposes as well, so I get a pretty good idea about how they use their computer and recommend a PC spec accordingly (I also give customers common upgrade options at that point, so if a customer obviously needed 16GB RAM from the start, I'd have 32GB in the options list). If RAM needs adding later, it gets added. I presume you're running a shop so therefore all you probably have to go on is what the customer tells you and the sale might be the last you see of them until something major happens, whereas many of my customers I see each year or every other year so if I noticed that their usage is challenging the RAM capacity, I can recommend it then.

Coming back to the topic - if 16GB DDRx cost $40 and 32GB DDRx cost $45 then I would only expect big-name OEMs to make the call that the cheaper option is somehow better simply because it saves them money; if most people built their own PCs then I would assume that most people would get the extra RAM (myself included). But when the extra RAM nearly costs twice as much (the RAM you mentioned on the newegg site in UK prices is £35 for the 16GB kit and £62 for the 32GB kit you quoted), then obviously some people will be looking to save the extra money or utilise it in other aspects of the system which IMO seems perfectly reasonable unless they know for a fact that 32GB will be utilised in a way that they will notice.

 

[mikeymikec]

You should really consider 64GB. I went with 32GB DDR5-6000 expo for my Ryzen 7600 rig - I can't fully utilize all 12 threads all of the time for scientific compute with YOYO@Home, because 32GB RAM isn't enough.

Your logic here is "you should buy X because of the way I use my hardware". Just saying. My system's current RAM usage is 4.3GB RAM. If I fire up a Win7 VM it'll go up to just under 9GB. The only other high RAM usage scenario I encounter on my system is if I reboot into Windows and fire up a modern-ish game like XCOM2.

But I absolutely will get 64GB if you'll pay the difference I'll even send you regular screenshots of like ~10% memory usage.

 

[bba-tcg]

My relationship with my customers might differ from yours insofar as I visit them in their homes for maintenance purposes as well, so I get a pretty good idea about how they use their computer and recommend a PC spec accordingly (I also give customers common upgrade options at that point, so if a customer obviously needed 16GB RAM from the start, I'd have 32GB in the options list). If RAM needs adding later, it gets added. I presume you're running a shop so therefore all you probably have to go on is what the customer tells you and the sale might be the last you see of them until something major happens, whereas many of my customers I see each year or every other year so if I noticed that their usage is challenging the RAM capacity, I can recommend it then.

Coming back to the topic - if 16GB DDRx cost $40 and 32GB DDRx cost $45 then I would only expect big-name OEMs to make the call that the cheaper option is somehow better simply because it saves them money; if most people built their own PCs then I would assume that most people would get the extra RAM (myself included). But when the extra RAM nearly costs twice as much (the RAM you mentioned on the newegg site in UK prices is £35 for the 16GB kit and £62 for the 32GB kit you quoted), then obviously some people will be looking to save the extra money or utilise it in other aspects of the system which IMO seems perfectly reasonable unless they know for a fact that 32GB will be utilised in a way that they will notice.

Really all I want my customers to notice is that their PC is fast and does everything they want without them noticing any bottlenecks. I charge enough that I can afford to provide 32 GB as standard equipment. I've had repeat customers for nearly 20 years (with this business, some customers actually predate it) that are not looking forward to when I retire (I'm getting old, but don't foresee retirement as an option any time soon). so please don't presume to know anything about me other than what I say on these forums. I don't do many service calls since I lost my leg but I do still provide this service to select customers, that again, I've built a lasting relationship both as a customer and as friends.

And, to clarify, I didn't say that my approach was required of anyone. You do you. Just don't tell me that what I do is somehow unnecessary or superfluous just because you don't do it.

My personal machines have 64 GB simply because I want it. Really no other justification needed.

 

[mikeymikec]

Really all I want my customers to notice is that their PC is fast and does everything they want without them noticing any bottlenecks. I charge enough that I can afford to provide 32 GB as standard equipment. I've had repeat customers for nearly 20 years (with this business, some customers actually predate it) that are not looking forward to when I retire (I'm getting old, but don't foresee retirement as an option any time soon). so please don't presume to know anything about me other than what I say on these forums. I don't do many service calls since I lost my leg but I do still provide this service to select customers, that again, I've built a lasting relationship both as a customer and as friends.

And, to clarify, I didn't say that my approach was required of anyone. You do you. Just don't tell me that what I do is somehow unnecessary or superfluous just because you don't do it.

My personal machines have 64 GB simply because I want it. Really no other justification needed.

No offence / put-down / anything negative was intended in anything I wrote, nor did I suggest that what you were doing was wrong. I'm sorry if it made you feel that way.

I highly doubt that I am running my business as well as I can be, let alone presuming to know your customers and their needs better than you do!

 

[bba-tcg]

No offence / put-down / anything negative was intended in anything I wrote, nor did I suggest that what you were doing was wrong. I'm sorry if it made you feel that way.

I highly doubt that I am running my business as well as I can be, let alone presuming to know your customers and their needs better than you do!

No offense taken. Now start using 32 GB in all your builds.

 

[Shmee]

My NAS/Server has 256GB of DDR4 ECC, which I was able to get for pretty cheap. My gaming desktops have 32GB of DDR4. I think 32GB is the new baseline for the most part. Certainly can help in some games/situations.

 

[WelshBloke]

Your logic here is "you should buy X because of the way I use my hardware". Just saying. My system's current RAM usage is 4.3GB RAM. If I fire up a Win7 VM it'll go up to just under 9GB. The only other high RAM usage scenario I encounter on my system is if I reboot into Windows and fire up a modern-ish game like XCOM2.

But I absolutely will get 64GB if you'll pay the difference I'll even send you regular screenshots of like ~10% memory usage.

You run a win7 VM with 5GB of memory?!

Windows uses a shade above 8GB just booting up for me!

 

[mikeymikec]

You run a win7 VM with 5GB of memory?!

Windows uses a shade above 8GB just booting up for me!

Nah, 4GB, I just remember that approximate 9GB figure from a previous occasion when I looked. I probably had more tabs open in FF (Linux) that time. My Win7 VM started reporting 922MB after boot, spiked to 1.82GB then just went down to 1.22GB.

8GB: I've never seen Windows (10/11) use up that amount of memory on boot, I think the most I've seen was 4/5. One thing to be aware of is that on the default settings Edge will start with Windows then stay running in the background; if you've been using Edge it might be loading some tabs too (I almost without exception disable both behaviours). I bet something else is going on with your Windows startup routine though to cause a figure like that, bloated security software perhaps.

---

Back to the OP, I wonder if the reason why there's not much of a change in FPS is because the extra RAM goes towards pre-fetching data. Perhaps if the benchmarks were run for long enough and enough passes whether short-term drops in frame rates would be observed because the system with less RAM that didn't do as much pre-fetching then needs to catch up?

Or maybe the increased RAM usage is a red herring. One thing that wasn't altogether clear to me was whether the RAM usage was for the game process or overall system usage: I guessed the latter. If it is the latter, I wonder if background system activity on systems with more RAM is causing more memory usage, or perhaps Windows is caching more data that has been accessed "because it can". Maybe the game designers are aware enough of Windows' caching to exploit it and essentially causing it to pre-load more game data when the system reports enough RAM to do so? Then game/level loading times might take a little longer on systems with more RAM, which would be an interesting dynamic.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

I am tempted to pick up a cheapo 3200 4x2 kit on Ebay to try this with different test parameters. Because I have my suspicions that it is more about the 24GB frame buffer, though fast storage probably plays a part too.

Will 2x4 be enough using a 6GB GPU on a gaming PC with all of the usual stuff running? Or does it tank hard under those test conditions vs more ram, all else being equal?

 

[aigomorla]

My NAS/Server has 256GB of DDR4 ECC, which I was able to get for pretty cheap. My gaming desktops have 32GB of DDR4. I think 32GB is the new baseline for the most part. Certainly can help in some games/situations.

With how bloated google chrome can get with god knows how many youtube video's open, game clients, peripheral software, discord, outlook, and every other program you need in background, and the poor window habits a lot of people now have of not closing explorer windows, and having 9e77 chrome tabs, id also agree 32gb should be the basis.

The above applies to me, so my desktop has 256GB of ECC DDR4 ram.
(im on a EYPC as my main as i need those stupid PCI-E Lanes, its not the best gaming system, but its fast enough to keep up with my 4090)

I am tempted to pick up a cheapo 3200 4x2 kit on Ebay to try this with different test parameters. Because I have my suspicions that it is more about the 24GB frame buffer, though fast storage probably plays a part too.

Will 2x4 be enough using a 6GB GPU on a gaming PC with all of the usual stuff running? Or does it tank hard under those test conditions vs more ram, all else being equal?

Faster ram always wins.... however that's only if its noticeably faster.
But if the top applies to you, like it does to me sometimes, where i can't seem to close any of my google tabs, and chrome ends up eatting all my resources, then id say the more is better so you never hit that windows swap file.

 

[Shmee]

With how bloated google chrome can get with god knows how many youtube video's open, game clients, peripheral software, discord, outlook, and every other program you need in background, and the poor window habits a lot of people now have of not closing explorer windows, and having 9e77 chrome tabs, id also agree 32gb should be the basis.

The above applies to me, so my desktop has 256GB of ECC DDR4 ram.
(im on a EYPC as my main as i need those stupid PCI-E Lanes, its not the best gaming system, but its fast enough to keep up with my 4090)



Faster ram always wins.... however that's only if its noticeably faster.
But if the top applies to you, like it does to me sometimes, where i can't seem to close any of my google tabs, and chrome ends up eatting all my resources, then id say the more is better so you never hit that windows swap file.

Which Epyc do you have? Is it one of the fast Zen 3 versions with 3D cache? I would be curious to know how it does in gaming compared to Zen 3 or Zen 4 on mainstream platforms.

I don't use chrome anymore myself, just Firefox pretty much, but I think that can eat up memory as well. Though I am careful not to have too many tabs open at once. At least I am fairly good about closing stuff.

 

[aigomorla]

Which Epyc do you have? Is it one of the fast Zen 3 versions with 3D cache?

This one...

But a little bit of spec info.
Board: Supermicro X11SSL-i
CPU: 7601 EYPC 32 core. -128 x PCI-E Lanes.... WOOP~!
Memory: 8 x 32GB DDR4 ECC Reg. 2133Mhz. Samsung IC's
SSD: TeamXtreme Pro 512GB (OS Drive) + 4 x Samsung 980 PRO 2TB (this will be as an addon 4xnVME card because i got a gazillion PCI-E lanes now to burn... and now im slot limited and not Lane limited)

Obligation Pictures:
View attachment 69391

View attachment 69392

How does it do in gaming...
Meh... its not a 7000X3D for sure. Id say its more like a Tesla Semi, vs a Model S Plad, if your gonna pull a 7800X3D against it.
Its definitely faster then my Skylake-X it replaced for sure tho, although marginally, but i have way more pci-e slots and lanes. lol.

But when i have 24GB of GDDR6 on my GPU, it still pretty much bulldozes though everything even at 3.2ghz which is the max boost.

I am waiting for Storm Peak before i decide on my next HEDT tho.
But i am hearing the one i want maybe only available to SI... 7945WX.

If thats the case, i may end up getting the W5-3435X as i really need PCI-E lanes and Bifurcation more then CPU prowess, since i always steam roll the GPU in games i play, and im not really a content creator, so i don't need the uber amount of raw cores.

And i really miss that overclocking... something i can't do on a EPYC, and 5900 Thread Rippers were next to impossible to get without breaking what i paid for the the complete package on that EPYC vs just a 5955WX alone during COVID lockdowns.

 

[Shmee]

Ah, so you are still on Zen architecture from the looks of it. I suspect that is a huge CPU bottleneck honestly, even if there are 32 cores. I doubt it is any faster in most games than a 2700X. Though if you play at a high resolution(4k?), so that you put more stress on the 4090, I could see that one might not notice a CPU bottleneck as much.

For you, I would be leaning towards an interest in Zen4/Zen5 TR possibly. I see you mentioned Storm Peak, apparently that is the code name for the Zen 4 TR. I am curious as to when that will come out.

 

[BFG10K]

Because I have my suspicions that it is more about the 24GB frame buffer...

Once you have enough (e.g. 16GB), more VRAM shouldn't make a difference. x86 instructions, program data structures, sounds, AI scripts, (etc) don't sit in the VRAM.

 

[aigomorla]

For you, I would be leaning towards an interest in Zen4/Zen5 TR possibly.

I have been waiting and waiting for Zen4 TR.
It was promised like Q4 2022 if i remember.
We only see leaks now, and to make things worse, the only ones we can probably get access to, without purchasing a complete system from a SI, will probably be a 7000 dollar CPU the 7985WX/7995WX, which if that is the case, then it will be a very hard pass, as the W5-3435X is priced and at stock in newegg for 1600 dollars, with a package available.

https://www.newegg.com/intel-xeon-w5-3435x-lga-4677/p/N82E16819118452?Item=N82E16819118452&cm_sp=combodetail-combooption

But also note, i hear the 3435X may go though a refresh Q4.

Although keeping on topic, i will probably populate all 8 slots with memory as its a 8 channel system, and will probably run 8x32gb sticks, while allocating 128GB to a Ramdrive using ImDisk.

Another benefit of having more ram then needed is the Ramdrive, and putting your entire swap file into it, along with temporary transcoding files and other what nots, as i do a lot of transcoding lately, converting my library into H265.

 

[MangoX]

@aigomorla Going OT, but why not use AV1? I'm getting really good results and since you have a 4000 series Nvidia it supports hardware decoding. I have better quality then H265 and the files are smaller, using SVT-AV1 in Handbrake.

 

[Ajay]

I have been waiting and waiting for Zen4 TR.
It was promised like Q4 2022 if i remember.
We only see leaks now, and to make things worse, the only ones we can probably get access to, without purchasing a complete system from a SI, will probably be a 7000 dollar CPU the 7985WX/7995WX, which if that is the case, then it will be a very hard pass, as the W5-3435X is priced and at stock in newegg for 1600 dollars, with a package available.

Ya gotta wait for Zen5 TR Shimada Peak. It'll be so much better that it''ll be worth the wait . What's another 3 years between between hardware upgrade

 

[Glo.]

The PC that I am writing this post has 8 GB of DDR4 memory installed.

Its the ONLY PC that I have currently. It still chugs along, but 32, 48 GB of RAM is currently the standard config that we should be picking up when buying or building new PC.

Especially if you have SOC/APU based system, without the dGPU.