86M Workers Sustain 148M Benefit Takers

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werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
Funny that. He was the architect of Reagan's build up the trust fund plan 20 years earlier.
Prior to Reagan, excess Social Security receipts simply vanished into the general fund. He set up Algore's lock box, whereupon government simply wrote IOUs and carried on exactly as before. Considering that the only alternative was to invest excess Social Security receipts in a non-government vehicle or buying up hard currency, I don't know why you're blaming Reagan.

Oh wait, I do. It's Reagan Derangement Syndrome. Luckily you're in the foaming terminal stage where you're highly unlikely to infect anyone else.
 

boomerang

Lifer
Jun 19, 2000
18,883
641
126
Wait, taking from the 1% can't support us all? I thought that confiscating their assets was the game plan.
 

Wreckem

Diamond Member
Sep 23, 2006
9,492
1,050
126
Wait, taking from the 1% can't support us all? I thought that confiscating their assets was the game plan.

Well if we hadn't of wasted $4-6trillion(short and long term costs) on Iraq and Afghanistan...
 
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brandonb

Diamond Member
Oct 17, 2006
3,731
2
0
Well if we hadn't of wasted $4-6trillion(short and long term costs) on Iraq and Afghanistan...

Yeah, not sure why we went over there. And why the president hasn't recalled our troops.

Osama Bin Laden mentioned once way back when that his plan was to bankrupt America. That was his war against us. Make us bankrupt ourselves by fighting his little band of misfits. Trillions of dollars really for what? What did we get out of it? Nothing... Terrorism hasn't gone anywhere. It's alive and well in Syria. And we support the terrorists now. ;)

We are so incredibility stupid. And keep electing these idiots into office. When will people learn?
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,197
126
Love reading this thread. Good to know that the maker-vs-taker mentality that worked so well for Romney is still alive and well on the right. Keep it up, you guys!
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
Love reading this thread. Good to know that the maker-vs-taker mentality that worked so well for Romney is still alive and well on the right. Keep it up, you guys!
Just out of morbid curiosity, is there some ratio of maker to taker at which you might be concerned, or are you another Eskimospy, absolutely convinced that we can all ride the dole with borrowed money forever and ever? It seems rather axiomatic to me that if there's one guy with a job and 310,999 expecting a check things might get a bit strained. If true, then surely there is some curve on which things become increasingly problematic.
 

brandonb

Diamond Member
Oct 17, 2006
3,731
2
0
Love reading this thread. Good to know that the maker-vs-taker mentality that worked so well for Romney is still alive and well on the right. Keep it up, you guys!

Don't give a shit about Romney, but for what it's worth. He is absolutely correct.

In 20 years we'll all be saying "He was ahead of his time."
 

boomerang

Lifer
Jun 19, 2000
18,883
641
126
Just out of morbid curiosity, is there some ratio of maker to taker at which you might be concerned, or are you another Eskimospy, absolutely convinced that we can all ride the dole with borrowed money forever and ever? It seems rather axiomatic to me that if there's one guy with a job and 310,999 expecting a check things might get a bit strained. If true, then surely there is some curve on which things become increasingly problematic.
I'd be very interested in hearing his answer too.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
Prior to Reagan, excess Social Security receipts simply vanished into the general fund. He set up Algore's lock box, whereupon government simply wrote IOUs and carried on exactly as before. Considering that the only alternative was to invest excess Social Security receipts in a non-government vehicle or buying up hard currency, I don't know why you're blaming Reagan.

Oh wait, I do. It's Reagan Derangement Syndrome. Luckily you're in the foaming terminal stage where you're highly unlikely to infect anyone else.

You should just stick with propagandizing in fact free venues.

Prior to Reagan, SS existed on a pay-go basis with a small trust fund as a buffer. There was no money to disappear into the general fund.

http://www.demos.org/data-byte/social-security-trust-fund-balance

Al Gore was a junior Congressman from Tennessee at the time. I doubt he was consulted.

SS taxes were raised considerably at the time to build up the trust fund as it exists today.

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfacts/content/pdf/ssrate_historical.pdf

Reagan on the subject at the time-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-91W5LS0E8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCDjqy5_V2w

See the guy to his left? Alan Greenspan.

Mere facts. Inconvenient from your propagandizing POV, but facts nonetheless.
 

shortylickens

No Lifer
Jul 15, 2003
80,287
17,080
136
Social Security should never have been raided. It should have been left the hell alone. Let it gain interest. Dont freakin touch it.

As soon as Big Brother started wetting his fingers the people should have been up in arms, slapping their congressmen around. The fact they did absolutely nothing for decades means Americans are better as sheep than as shepherds.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
Social Security should never have been raided. It should have been left the hell alone. Let it gain interest. Dont freakin touch it.

As soon as Big Brother started wetting his fingers the people should have been up in arms, slapping their congressmen around. The fact they did absolutely nothing for decades means Americans are better as sheep than as shepherds.

You have no understanding of how that works. It never was raided, but rather invested in the Government of the People. That's the only reason it accrues interest at all. If the SS trusts were the only public debt, they'd be no issue at all, easily sustainable. It's all the other debt that matters more, debt built up with serial tax cuts combined with mostly military spending during Repub Admins. Reagan tripled the debt puffing up his chest over the Russian Boogeyman. GWB doubled it going to war, twice, and cutting taxes at the same time.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
You should just stick with propagandizing in fact free venues.

Prior to Reagan, SS existed on a pay-go basis with a small trust fund as a buffer. There was no money to disappear into the general fund.

http://www.demos.org/data-byte/social-security-trust-fund-balance

Al Gore was a junior Congressman from Tennessee at the time. I doubt he was consulted.

SS taxes were raised considerably at the time to build up the trust fund as it exists today.

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfacts/content/pdf/ssrate_historical.pdf

Reagan on the subject at the time-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-91W5LS0E8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCDjqy5_V2w

See the guy to his left? Alan Greenspan.

Mere facts. Inconvenient from your propagandizing POV, but facts nonetheless.
I'm torn between asking if you even read the shit you post or if you even can read the shit you post. You are without doubt the most stupid person on these boards and may in fact be the most stupid person on the planet. Sheesh!

You assert that prior to Reagan setting up the trust fund in '87, Social Security/Medicaid was pay as you go, then offer as proof a graph from demos.org of the value of the freakin' trust fund SINCE IT WAS MOVED OFF-BUDGET. Then you post another link showing the historic rates as proof of Reagan's perfidy in raising SS taxes "considerably" to build up the trust fund. By your link, Reagan raised the rate a whopping 1.72% actual (1988 rates minus 1981 rates) for a 12.9% increase in the rate over eight years. Carter raised the rate 1.6% actual (1977 rates minus 1980 rates) for a 13.7% increase in the rate over FOUR years. Under Reagan, the cap went from $29,700 to $45,000, an increase of 51.5% over eight years. Under Carter, the cap went from $16,500 to $25,900, an increase of 57.0% over FOUR years. The reason the rates were raised under both Presidents is because the fund was going broke. Yes, the Social Security fund increased massively in Reagan's time in office, because the damned economy was booming.

For those not wishing to be as stupid as Jhhnn - which, granted, technically may not even be humanly possible but is still a fate to be avoided - let me point out that the reforms passed under Reagan (by a Democrat-controlled Congress with bipartisan support) were ACCOUNTING reforms designed to make it more politically damaging to spend excess Social Security money on other things. It's also worth pointing out that it was Johnson who administratively moved Social Security into the general fund, and that the Democrat-controlled Congress in 1990 largely undid the Reagan-era changes. (Although full disclosure, that might not be fully fair to Johnson as in theory there is no practical, fundamental difference in carrying Social Security on-budget or off-budget; the trust fund is calculated, tracked and operated exactly the same. The only change is whether it is the general fund as a line item, tracked like any other federal program and self-funded, or in a separate account. This is a procedural change, not an operational change.)

Social Security has always had a trust fund, period, all the way back to 1939. It has to, as prior to Reagan taking office the previous six years (and 1981, and in fact four years prior) the trust fund was paying out more than it took in despite the increases in cap and rates. Here is the SSA's own historical trust fund value table.
http://www.ssa.gov/history/tftable.html
Note that in years 1975, 1976, 1977, 1978, 1979, 1980, and 1981 the Social Security trust fund decreased, from $45,886 million in 1974 to $24,539 million in 1981. We tend to think of the Social Security crisis in terms of baby boomers retiring without remembering that economic and structural factors have caused problems in the past.

Again, Reagan's move was an accounting change. Excess Social Security receipts have always been used to purchase government bonds because the alternatives, such as investing excess Social Security receipts in a non-government vehicle or buying up hard currency, are impractical and/or politically contentious. What changed under Reagan was how the trust fund was treated in accounting, specifically in the budget process. It was a move designed to make it politically more difficult to spend excess Social Security receipts, just as the Johnson era change was to make it politically less difficult to spend excess Social Security receipts. However, neither Johnson administratively nor Reagan through Congress changed the Social Security trust fund conceptually or operationally; it has always existed because that's the only way to cover shortfalls both immediate and long term. Yes, under Reagan the rates and caps were raised, as they were under Carter, Ford, Nixon, all the way back to Eisenhower, because actuarially the increases were necessary to meet promised payments.

Let me stress one more time that these are changes in accounting; whether the federal government directly spends excess Social Security receipts from the general fund or borrows them from the Social Security, the Social Security trust fund operates exactly the same. It purchases government bonds with excess receipts, and cashes those government bonds if receipts fall short of obligations. The ONLY change is the accounting procedure used to move the money from the Social Security Administration to the general fund.

Some other links for people who do not wish to be as stupid as Jhhnn.
Snopes on Social Security changes.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/socialsecurity/changes.asp

Reagan's 1981 letter to Congress on the matter. (The earlier SSA link showed the negative receipts of the 70s to give some context.)
http://www.ssa.gov/history/reaganstmts.html

The SSA's own page on Social Security myths.
http://www.ssa.gov/history/InternetMyths2.html
This gives some very illustrative guidance here. Bolding is mine.
Q1. Which political party took Social Security from the independent trust fund and put it into the general fund so that Congress could spend it?

A1: There has never been any change in the way the Social Security program is financed or the way that Social Security payroll taxes are used by the federal government. The Social Security Trust Fund was created in 1939 as part of the Amendments enacted in that year. From its inception, the Trust Fund has always worked the same way. The Social Security Trust Fund has never been "put into the general fund of the government."

Most likely this question comes from a confusion between the financing of the Social Security program and the way the Social Security Trust Fund is treated in federal budget accounting. Starting in 1969 (due to action by the Johnson Administration in 1968) the transactions to the Trust Fund were included in what is known as the "unified budget." This means that every function of the federal government is included in a single budget. This is sometimes described by saying that the Social Security Trust Funds are "on-budget." This budget treatment of the Social Security Trust Fund continued until 1990 when the Trust Funds were again taken "off-budget." This means only that they are shown as a separate account in the federal budget. But whether the Trust Funds are "on-budget" or "off-budget" is primarily a question of accounting practices--it has no effect on the actual operations of the Trust Fund itself.

Note that even while Social Security is in the general fund in the sense of being in the same budget, it is still for all intents and purposes a separate program with its receipts devoted only to its own spending. This is a subtle but important distinction because with some federal programs the receipts generated go back into the general fund without affecting the program's allowable spending or funding. When we say Johnson put Social Security into the general fund, or that the Democrats in 1990 put it back into the general fund, we are not being precise enough to point out the difference between a self-funded program like Social Security and a more mundane program like government cheese, whose receipts go directly back into the general fund without being tracked separately.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
Dance, werepossum, dance. See how much you can muddy the waters. The trust balance rose from $25B in 1981 to $2.5T+ today not because of the way it's accounted for or changes in that, but because Boomers & GenX'ers contributed the difference in an effort to pay it forward, help cover the costs of their own benefits, just as Reagan convinced us to do.

Just because successive Repub Admins used it as a giant cash cow to offset top tier tax cuts & borrow even more doesn't change that one bit.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
Social Security should never have been raided. It should have been left the hell alone. Let it gain interest. Dont freakin touch it.

As soon as Big Brother started wetting his fingers the people should have been up in arms, slapping their congressmen around. The fact they did absolutely nothing for decades means Americans are better as sheep than as shepherds.
Problem is what do you invest in other than government bonds? Don't get me wrong, I really wish we had invested in the market, but I can see why that decision was made. For one thing, the market had just imploded and there was not a lot of trust. Precious metals would be nice but there's a limited supply of those, and the tendency would be for the prices to go way up when your receipts are high and go way down when your receipts are negative - still a lot better than what we have, but not ideal.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
Dance, werepossum, dance. See how much you can muddy the waters. The trust balance rose from $25B in 1981 to $2.5T+ today not because of the way it's accounted for or changes in that, but because Boomers & GenX'ers contributed the difference in an effort to pay it forward, help cover the costs of their own benefits, just as Reagan convinced us to do.

Just because successive Repub Admins used it as a giant cash cow to offset top tier tax cuts & borrow even more doesn't change that one bit.
Muddy the waters with actual Social Security Administration links rather than demos.org?

Stupidest. Person. On. Earth.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
Muddy the waters with actual Social Security Administration links rather than demos.org?

Stupidest. Person. On. Earth.

Heh. The SS links are accurate. Your interpretation of what they mean is bullshit.

Boomers & GenX'ers either built the trusts to their current value for the purposes Reagan gave us, or not. Given that the program is self funded, as you point out, the govt will either honor the trust obligations, pay back the money borrowed as needed, or not.

That's what makes it so problematical for the Lootocracy & their sycophants- it's not like the rest of the debt, it can't just be rolled over as a permanent subsidy to bondholders. We're arriving at the point where those promises need to be fulfilled. The people who built the trust have expected it to be repaid all along, and there'll be Hell to pay for any attempt to welch on it.

Obviously, the money has to come from somewhere, as contributions will fall short of expenditures as we've known all along. That's why we consented to building up the trust in the first place- we believed Ronnie & Alan all along.
 

Attic

Diamond Member
Jan 9, 2010
4,282
2
76
SS will be fine guys. Trust me, I'm from the government, why would I lie or deceive the people? It's only the other side that lies and manipulates information important to your livelihoods*.

It would be impossible, IMPOSSIBLE!, that both sides play the same game on the people, we'd never set up something so devious and transparent...


*Please pick your side and hate the other to the point of being unable to clearly see anything for what it is. This will ensure the lucrative status quo for me and my buddies from both sides of the political aisle, but most importantly this will satisfy the oligarchs who own us. To the infinitely wise and ahead of their time cheerleaders of their respective side, please pat yourself on the back from me.
 
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Texashiker

Lifer
Dec 18, 2010
18,811
197
106
Well if we hadn't of wasted $4-6trillion(short and long term costs) on Iraq and Afghanistan...

If Regan had not reduced the tax rate on the upper class by what,,, 30%?

when the tax rate on the upper class was 90% is when we had the lowest income inequality.
 
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1prophet

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2005
5,313
534
126
If Regan had not reduced the tax rate on the upper class by what,,, 30%?

when the tax rate on the upper class was 90% is when we had the lowest income inequality.


Common correlation fallacy, long before Reagan the rich were paying little to no taxes.

A predecessor "minimum tax" was enacted by the Tax Reform Act of 1969[16] and went into effect in 1970. Treasury Secretary Joseph Barr prompted the enactment action with an announcement that 155 high-income households had not paid a dime of federal income taxes.[17] The households had taken advantage of so many tax benefits and deductions that reduced their tax liabilities to zero.[18] Congress responded by creating an add-on tax on high-income households, equal to 10% of the sum of tax preferences in excess of $30,000 plus the taxpayer's regular tax liability.[19]


The explanation of the 1969 Act prepared by Congress's Staff of the Joint Committee on Internal Revenue Taxation described the reason for the AMT as follows:
"The prior treatment imposed no limit on the amount of income which an individual or corporation could exclude from tax as the result of various tax preferences. As a result, there were large variations in the tax burdens placed on individuals or corporations with similar economic incomes, depending upon the size of their preference income.

In general, those individual or corporate taxpayers who received the bulk of their income from personal services or manufacturing were taxed at relatively higher tax rates than others. On the other hand, individuals or corporations which received the bulk of their income from such sources as capital gains or were in a position to benefit from net lease arrangements, from accelerated depreciation on real estate, from percentage depletion, or from other tax-preferred activities tended to pay relatively low rates of tax.

In fact, many individuals with high incomes who could benefit from these provisions paid lower effective rates of tax than many individuals with modest incomes. In extreme cases, individuals enjoyed large economic incomes without paying any tax at all.

This was true for example in the case of 154 returns in 1966 with adjusted gross incomes of $200,000 a year (apart from those with income exclusions which do not show on the returns filed). Similarly, a number of large corporations paid either no tax at all or taxes which represented very low effective rates."​
And what do we have today, so called liberals demonizing individuals with overseas accounts while the other people a.k.a. corporations get away scot-free, and some of the worst offenders get rewarded by our President.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/03/29/jon-stewart-ge-taxes-video_n_841835.html

On Monday night's "Daily Show," Jon Stewart did another edition of his "I Give Up" series in regards to the recent news about GE not paying any federal income tax in 2010, even though they made $14.2 billion in profits.
While pundits have been saying that "parisitic" public employee unions are ruining the economy by making it harder for corporations to create jobs, GE not only paid zero taxes in 2010 but received a $3.2 billion tax benefit. If that wasn't enough to get Stewart to say "I give up," he also lamented that GE cut 1/5 of American jobs in last 9 years while boosting jobs overseas.
"I know the Supreme Court ruled that corporations are people," Stewart said. "But what they didn't realize is that those people are a**holes."​
GE wasn't Stewart's only target. He also criticized Obama for saying he would stop corporations from profiting from outsourced labor when they pay no domestic taxes, but instead making GE CEO Jeffrey Immelt a chairman on his new economic council.
Stewart finally gave up after realizing Obama isn't going to be "hoping a** and taking change" as he had expected. But the domestic employees GE still has left, specifically 'NBC Nightly News,' would surely cover the story with vigor, right? Again, Stewart was sorely disappointed.
Watch the full clip below to see what NBC was reporting on instead of GE's tax news last Friday night, and decide for yourself which story was more important.
 

shortylickens

No Lifer
Jul 15, 2003
80,287
17,080
136
If Jon Stewart was really smart he wouldnt have fallen for Obamas nonsense the first time around.

Having said that, when the ultra-lib commedians/commentators start turning against their favorite special friend, you know things arent going well.
 

Knowing

Golden Member
Mar 18, 2014
1,522
13
46
It's all the other debt that matters more, debt built up with serial tax cuts combined with mostly military spending during Repub Admins.

So military spending during democrat administrations is paid for with magical sky money? Also, have you seen the obvious trend in mandatory spending since decades ago?

800px-GAO_Slide.png


entitlement-interest-budget-squeeze-data-original.jpg


Then there's the trillions that states owe in unfunded liabilities...
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
So military spending during democrat administrations is paid for with magical sky money? Also, have you seen the obvious trend in mandatory spending since decades ago?

Then there's the trillions that states owe in unfunded liabilities...

Debt stood at under $1T when Reagan took office. It stood at $4.4T when GHWB left office., $6T when Clinton left, and $12T when GWB left.

http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/pd/histdebt/histdebt.htm

Simple facts. The deficits of both the Reagan & Bush eras were driven by military expenditures & tax cuts.