85% of all deaths in hospitals are pulling the plug.

[NightCrawler]

Watching the newshour on PBS they were saying that medical technology is so good now that they can keep you alive after serious injury in horrible states that people would have died from 30 years ago.

In some 85% of the cases families had to pull the plug or remove feeding tubes that were keeping people in half alive, half dead states.

 

[CycloWizard]

I think I know what you're trying to say, but maybe you could elaborate on how, exactly, one can be 'half dead'.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

Unfortunately, the misinformation/demagoguery of the radical right (Bushites) and hypocrite self-righteous (Jesse Jackson) has obscured the truths of our modern system of healthcare. Other aliases for the system . . . disease care, insurance slush fund, soak the healthy, and the most apropos . . . not the place you want to be if you are sick.

 

[NightCrawler]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard
I think I know what you're trying to say, but maybe you could elaborate on how, exactly, one can be 'half dead'.

Having a illness, disease or injury that destroys the front part of the brain, while the part that tells your heart to keep beating works fine.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard
I think I know what you're trying to say, but maybe you could elaborate on how, exactly, one can be 'half dead'.

To borrow from the Matrix . . . the body cannot live without the mind . . . with the notable exception of Schiavo fanatics.

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
To borrow from the Matrix . . . the body cannot live without the mind . . . with the notable exception of Schiavo fanatics.

How sad... I would have expected a physician to be at least somewhat knowledgeable about end-of-life decisions and the issues therein. Or did you personally develop methodology to determine whether or not consciousness remains in an individual based on simple brain scans?

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
To borrow from the Matrix . . . the body cannot live without the mind . . . with the notable exception of Schiavo fanatics.

How sad... I would have expected a physician to be at least somewhat knowledgeable about end-of-life decisions and the issues therein. Or did you personally develop methodology to determine whether or not consciousness remains in an individual based on simple brain scans?

Why are you sad? Do you need a hug? Not only do I know the minutiae of end-of-life medical issues, I also know the legal ones.

I have neither the time nor inclination to educate you, so do your own Google. Better yet get . . . just get an education.

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
Why are you sad? Do you need a hug? Not only do I know the minutiae of end-of-life medical issues, I also know the legal ones.

I have neither the time nor inclination to educate you, so do your own Google. Better yet get . . . just get an education.

It's too bad... You used to occasionally add something to this forum. Now you just spout hateful rhetoric and try to belittle everyone else. For the record, I've taken classes on both the legal and ethical considerations of these situations. Apparently you skipped the ethics sections.

 

[JustAnAverageGuy]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard
It's too bad... You used to occasionally add something to this forum. Now you just spout hateful rhetoric and try to belittle everyone else. For the record, I've taken classes on both the legal and ethical considerations of these situations. Apparently you skipped the ethics sections.

You also apparently skipped they day they taught law > ethics in court.

 

[preCRT]

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc

Originally posted by: CycloWizard
I think I know what you're trying to say, but maybe you could elaborate on how, exactly, one can be 'half dead'.

To borrow from the Matrix . . . the body cannot live without the mind . . . with the notable exception of Schiavo fanatics.

:thumbsup:

 

[Jhhnn]

Ahh, yes, the "Hater" attack, this time from Cyclo-

"It's too bad... You used to occasionally add something to this forum. Now you just spout hateful rhetoric and try to belittle everyone else. For the record, I've taken classes on both the legal and ethical considerations of these situations. Apparently you skipped the ethics sections."

Anybody who disagrees is a "Hater", right?

One of the most difficult aspects of modern medicine is that it sometimes leaves people in limbo, in a netherworld of existence, not something easily dealt with using the black and white terms of the far Right. The body can be kept alive, but any evidence that the person is still there is entirely lacking, and/or the hope of true recovery is gone. It's unfortunate that families are presented with this problem- I've dealt with it, myself, and it's not fun. At some point or another, we all die, and sometimes allowing that to happen is truly an act of mercy, of compassion, of selflessness. There are also times when denial and selfishness override those considerations, promoting states of existence that are degrading and counterproductive, even for the patient. If one has any Faith at all, it seems clear that allowing another's spirit to move on to whatever awaits us on the other side, even if it's nothing, is really the right thing- to do otherwise is basically to deny Faith entirely.

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: Jhhnn
Anybody who disagrees is a "Hater", right?

One of the most difficult aspects of modern medicine is that it sometimes leaves people in limbo, in a netherworld of existence, not something easily dealt with using the black and white terms of the far Right. The body can be kept alive, but any evidence that the person is still there is entirely lacking, and/or the hope of true recovery is gone. It's unfortunate that families are presented with this problem- I've dealt with it, myself, and it's not fun. At some point or another, we all die, and sometimes allowing that to happen is truly an act of mercy, of compassion, of selflessness. There are also times when denial and selfishness override those considerations, promoting states of existence that are degrading and counterproductive, even for the patient. If one has any Faith at all, it seems clear that allowing another's spirit to move on to whatever awaits us on the other side, even if it's nothing, is really the right thing- to do otherwise is basically to deny Faith entirely.

Funny, I didn't realize calling people 'fanatics' was simply disagreeing. Of course, it's only ok to be derogatory if you happen to agree with Jhhnn, else you're using the dreaded 'Hater' defense. :roll:

Why do you pretend to know what's best for everyone, regardless of their peculiar circumstances? What will you say if someone decides to 'help your spirit move on' later today?

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

I stand corrected . . . it's not appropriate to lump all Schiavo fanatics together. Her husband was clearly a Schiavo fanatic . . . to the extent he spent several hundred thousand dollars defending his right to help his wife have a peaceful and appropriate ending to her life. A reasonable person would have given up long ago or sold out. Despite having a significant other and two kids, this guy continued the vigil and fight for what he believed his wife wanted. Despite being vilified by the in-laws, raving "alleged" Christians, and opportunistic politicians, Michael Schiavo stuck by his beliefs.

Clearly, all fanatics are not equal. I actually respect Michael Schiavo.

 

[Pliablemoose]

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
I stand corrected . . . it's not appropriate to lump all Schiavo fanatics together. Her husband was clearly a Schiavo fanatic . . . to the extent he spent several hundred thousand dollars defending his right to help his wife have a peaceful and appropriate ending to her life. A reasonable person would have given up long ago or sold out. Despite having a significant other and two kids, this guy continued the vigil and fight for what he believed his wife wanted. Despite being vilified by the in-laws, raving "alleged" Christians, and opportunistic politicians, Michael Schiavo stuck by his beliefs.

Clearly, all fanatics are not equal. I actually respect Michael Schiavo.

The poor guy & his family are now probably at risk from some look seeking to extract revenge from him.

What should have been a simple thing mushroomed into a nightmare, gotta love the idiots who blew this out of proportion.

2 good things came out of the nightmare for him,

1.) The poor woman was finally allowed to die
2.) The public has a better understanding of end of life issues.

IMHO, every patient in every hospital/doctor's office should be shown a code with audio so they can hear the ribs crack when CPR is done on an older person, watch a central line & ET tube get dropped, and they should watch a whole real unsuccessful code...

Then the screen should flash the stats of code survival versus age...

Then they could watch an adult diaper get changed, a few full thickness bedsores, see someone with contractures, see someone get fed through a feeding tube... A tour of a nursing home with vegatative patients, room by room...

[/rant]

 

[preCRT]

Originally posted by: PliablemooseIMHO, every patient in every hospital/doctor's office should be shown a code with audio so they can hear the ribs crack when CPR is done on an older person, watch a central line & ET tube get dropped, and they should watch a whole real unsuccessful code...

Then the screen should flash the stats of code survival versus age...

Then they could watch an adult diaper get changed, a few full thickness bedsores, see someone with contractures, see someone get fed through a feeding tube... A tour of a nursing home with vegatative patients, room by room...

[/rant]

They should round up every one of those protesters who hung around outside that hospice, force them to watch a code, and make them change some of those diapers for a few days in a nursing home.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

I think watching a code may be a bit much. I would simply send them a bill for a code.

 

[Jhhnn]

From Cyclo, wrt my remarks, above-

"Why do you pretend to know what's best for everyone, regardless of their peculiar circumstances? What will you say if someone decides to 'help your spirit move on' later today?"

I don't pretend to know that- it seems to me that the people you're defending are the ones who pretend to know, interfering in the lives and decisions of families across America- and yeh, if my body is in a persistent vegetative state, with extensive brain damage, please pull the plug, take out the feeding tube, shut off the ventilator, whatever it takes... because I won't really be there anymore, nor will I be coming back.

You've also misquoted me, not surprising, substituting "help" for "let"- there's a difference, of which I'm sure you're well aware...

I happen to think that such decisions are best left to the families involved, and to their doctors. Within that context, certain individuals will have the legal responsibility of making the decisions, and I'm all for letting them do so w/o being used as pawns in some misdirectional political power play, some scheme to use their misfortune and grief in pursuit of an unrelated agenda.

Do you really think that Delay and cronies actually gave a fat rat's ass about Shiavo, or her parents? Hardly- the whole thing was a contrived set of false values, designed as a diversion from his own ethical problems, an attack on the state and federal judiciary, and as a sop to the pro-life fringe. Nevermind that their cuts to Medicaid will likely result in the deaths of people who are actually sentient, who love, and care, and think, and dream... those people don't matter, empty shells are what matters...

 

[preCRT]

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
I think watching a code may be a bit much. I would simply send them a bill for a code.

Don't think a bill would do it, for some, the money means nothing. They need to see it.

 

[judasmachine]

I can understand why creationists believe you are not dead until you have no heart or brain activity. I guess it's just my lack of faith and for lack of a better term humanism just believes in mercy killing. But think of it this way if you were a soldier lying on a field of battle and you know medical help is too far away, you ask your comrade to shoot you, to end the misery.

 

[Jhhnn]

Nobody has mentioned "mercy killing" except you, judasmachine. Jack Kervorkian does mercy killing, and giving terminal cancer patients in great pain that last really big jolt of morphine is "Mercy killing"- that's a different subject. For all practical purposes, other than exploitation by politicians and whackjobs, braindead people are already dead, with the illusion of "life" being maintained artificially...

 

[Taejin]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
Why are you sad? Do you need a hug? Not only do I know the minutiae of end-of-life medical issues, I also know the legal ones.

I have neither the time nor inclination to educate you, so do your own Google. Better yet get . . . just get an education.

It's too bad... You used to occasionally add something to this forum. Now you just spout hateful rhetoric and try to belittle everyone else. For the record, I've taken classes on both the legal and ethical considerations of these situations. Apparently you skipped the ethics sections.

A common tactic of yours is to accuse the other person of basically being a troll - I think it's about time someone silenced your WOLF-crying arse..

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

Originally posted by: preCRT

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
I think watching a code may be a bit much. I would simply send them a bill for a code.

Don't think a bill would do it, for some, the money means nothing. They need to see it.

No I mean . . . make them pay the bill. Not a run of the mill code, I'm talking all the way from field CPR and LifeFlight to using intrathoracic paddles. Two ED attendings, 2 trauma surgeons, a couple of fellows, 5 nurses, and enough hardware and meds to stage a season of ER. I don't care how radical you are . . . there's nothing like 4-figure monthly payments to give a person perspective.

 

[preCRT]

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc

Originally posted by: preCRT

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
I think watching a code may be a bit much. I would simply send them a bill for a code.

Don't think a bill would do it, for some, the money means nothing. They need to see it.

No I mean . . . make them pay the bill. Not a run of the mill code, I'm talking all the way from field CPR and LifeFlight to using intrathoracic paddles. Two ED attendings, 2 trauma surgeons, a couple of fellows, 5 nurses, and enough hardware and meds to stage a season of ER. I don't care how radical you are . . . there's nothing like 4-figure monthly payments to give a person perspective.

They'd just declare bankruptcy and walk away...hardly ever see those right-to-life hypocritical cheap bastards put their money behind their sanctimonious blather.

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: Jhhnn
From Cyclo, wrt my remarks, above-

"Why do you pretend to know what's best for everyone, regardless of their peculiar circumstances? What will you say if someone decides to 'help your spirit move on' later today?"

I don't pretend to know that- it seems to me that the people you're defending are the ones who pretend to know, interfering in the lives and decisions of families across America- and yeh, if my body is in a persistent vegetative state, with extensive brain damage, please pull the plug, take out the feeding tube, shut off the ventilator, whatever it takes... because I won't really be there anymore, nor will I be coming back.

You've also misquoted me, not surprising, substituting "help" for "let"- there's a difference, of which I'm sure you're well aware...

I happen to think that such decisions are best left to the families involved, and to their doctors. Within that context, certain individuals will have the legal responsibility of making the decisions, and I'm all for letting them do so w/o being used as pawns in some misdirectional political power play, some scheme to use their misfortune and grief in pursuit of an unrelated agenda.

Do you really think that Delay and cronies actually gave a fat rat's ass about Shiavo, or her parents? Hardly- the whole thing was a contrived set of false values, designed as a diversion from his own ethical problems, an attack on the state and federal judiciary, and as a sop to the pro-life fringe. Nevermind that their cuts to Medicaid will likely result in the deaths of people who are actually sentient, who love, and care, and think, and dream... those people don't matter, empty shells are what matters...

Diagnosing a PVS is the entire issue here as far as I can tell. I agree with everything that you said here, but think you should realize that this diagnosis is still problematic.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

Diagnosing PVS isn't the issue b/c clearly the Schindlers "shopped" for an MD willing to give the answer they wanted. The staff physicians that provided Terri Schiavo's day to day care called it PVS. Michael Schiavo's "experts" testified to PVS. Court-appointed medical experts testified to PVS.

Is it possible that ONLY Schindler associated medical experts were right and EVERYBODY else is wrong? Of course, it's possible . . . highly unlikely . . . but possible. Now their claims of "likely recovery with proper rehabilitation" is pure fiction, though.

You are wrong that "diagnosing PVS is the entire issue." The legal issue hinged on whether Terri Schiavo would have wanted to live in PVS, MCS, coma, or any other altered state of consciousness (or absence thereof). According to her husband, the answer was "no." According to her parents, the answer probably was "yes." The courts agreed with the husband . . . time . . . and time . . . and time . . . and time . . . you get the picture.

Now I could go on for a year and a day about all the things that are "uncertain" about medical science and the art of medicine. But the Schiavo debacle does not highlight the vagaries of medicine, it spotlights the vagaries (and hypocrisy) of our political system.