80nm All-in-wonder - whats the chance & should one care?

[ElJefe69]

My first post here.... yes it is.

I have this x1900 all-in-wonder card retail box sitting next to me, in the box, glistening, looking sexy. You naughty thing you *growls and claws at it*

However, I am a real silent enthusiast and this card isnt a typical purchase for one. Thermally, a 7800GT or 7900GT is optimal for a silent setup. (less heat than a 9800 XT!) Yet, the nvidia options for multimedia and goodies is eternally pathetic, so I never buy them. This would be my 4th all in wonder card to date. So, I kinda need one for my style.

Anyways, it's 90nm. the 80nm is "soon out", as in, like not really soon but around late fall. I COULD wait for it then. but here is my question:

does a shift from 80nm to 90nm bring:
a. same mhz and noticably cooler operation
b. same mhz and like less than 10% lower wattage, aka, not really noticable
c. more mhz for the AIW on account of more headroom with single slot cooler
d. probably wont come out on the AIW anytime soon as this card is apparently difficult to design as it is.
e. lots of marketechture and more profits for cheaper chips but no difference at all for anything.

I saw the link for "80nm, anything besides die shrink?" and someone said gddr4, which honestly, I doubt they would toss in for just a minor shift. Of course, the higher up the gddr number, the better performance for watt you get, but I want the SAME performance for less wattage, something that doesnt make products in vid card industry sell well, as this is a kiddie OMGOSH I HAVE l33t OC CARD NOW world.

well, should it stay or should i wait and get my $449 dollars plus tax back?

hi.

 

[cubeless]

so get aftermarket cooling for it... if u have that much to spend on a vc u can afford another $40...

there's no other comparable package to that card... u would have to buy separate pieces to get same functions if u want nvidia...

 

[ElJefe69]

I thank you for your comment.

aftermarket cooling doesnt help a silent system. you cant SILENT a hot system. Some say "silent cooling" but audible is not silent. I normally hang out on the spcr forums, first time here. They arent into super tech normally of a 500 dollar vid card, so this is why im here with this question.

theres a wattage maximum that if you go over it, you foul up the whole near silent or silent system.

the point is, how much could 80nm actually make a difference in thermal properties?

I have reserator 1 on the cpu and gpu, a phantom 350 as a psu, 1 120mm Papst fan on 7 volts in the rear, no other fans, asrock dualsataII mobo with 4200 x2 cpu.

eh. more I think about it, more I think it wont make a difference but i duno about such things as much as tech geeks do

 

[mikek753]

your PSU is not good enought for x1900 AIW.
check on the card's box for psu req. or at http://www.ati.com/products/radeonx1900/aiwx1900/specs.html
450-Watt power supply or greater, 30 Amps on 12 volt rail recommended (assumes fully loaded system)

 

[ElJefe69]

yeah. do you know that a an sli system with a 3.6ghz p4, 4 banks of ram, 2 hardrives in raid0 and a dvd drive doesnt exceed a need for a 300 watt high efficiency psu??

for a regular glitzy psu doesnt have the above 80% efficiency of a phantom (really, no psu exceeds 85% except for a 430 s12 seasonic), you would need a 450 watt psu as it only gives out 350 of wattage under load.

gota read the several hundred tests and posts on silentpcreview.com to see what a real system actually needs.

 

[cubeless]

if you want to game (at a high level), then silent probably is not attainable, as they will push the new chips harder and they will still generate too much heat to have silent cooling...

it looks like you will have to go with a 2 card solution (like the silent 7600/7800 i saw reviewed somewhere) and a tv card...

you could probably do a mod like i've seen where someone put a big cpu cooler on his vid card and passively cooled it, but i think u will still end up with too much heat for silent...

to get the value out of the 1900 (high level gaming) it's gonna take cooling... if you aren't using it for that there's tuner cards that need no cooling...

 

[Bull Dog]

You won't get silent under full 3d load, but with something like a Thermalright V1 Ultra you can load a very quiet 80mm fan on it.

 

[Fox5]

80nm will run cooler, but who knows how much or when an all in wonder for it will come out.
Generally, you can't go high end and silent, unless you wanna buy a $1000 case that functions as a big heatsink. You could also underclock.

 

[ElJefe69]

I bought it, its in, its silent.

moan.

lol, yup. well basically silent. silent for THIS forum, not for SPCR though. there, silent is inaudible in a sealed room type of thing. however, the reserator 1 in a loop of cpu-gpu is holding it well. I am sure it will get hot under 4-5 hour BF2 runs, but so far, its maintained a good level of cooling. The board is showing higher temps at idle. I think it is either from the wattage pull (doubtful) or on account of this asrock board has hotter temps on a particular area when pci-e is used vs agp. (different bridges are taxed I hear for either one, i just switched off agp)

thanx for help guys! phantom350 is more than enough to push this card it seems.

 

[1Dark1Sharigan1]

I don't get the obsession with silence especially considering an average room is nothing close to being silent.

 

[SpeedZealot369]

Originally posted by: 1Dark1Sharigan1
I don't get the obsession with silence especially considering an average room is nothing close to being silent.

QFT, especially when your gaming, can you even hear anything over all the shooting and nades? (I like my CS:S loud, bring it on )

Never understood what everyone complains about with loud video cards. The only reason I would ever consider an aftermarket cooler is if it will lead to a better oc, which in turn will lead to higher rez/more AA or whatever.

I think you should definitly get your $450 plus tax back, simply because that's a ripoff for a AIW 1900

 

[rbV5]

Originally posted by: 1Dark1Sharigan1
I don't get the obsession with silence especially considering an average room is nothing close to being silent.

Maybe its not in an "average" room perhaps? Obviously, someone isn't going to get excited about noise from their PC in a noisy environment, and everyone has a different tolerance for noise. Modern cards generate alot of heat, and thus alot of noise and they are getting worse with every generation.

Personally, I don't get the acceptance of these newer cards and the noise they produce. Without knowing the specs of the card in the future, you'll have no idea of the effect of the die shrink on the thermal output of an AIW using the new chip. I suspect any AIW using the high-end chips will be loud and hot, they are simply not made for silent operation.

I wouldn't wait on some future product myself. You also don't need an AIW card either, and there are less powerful AIW cards as well that have far less thermal output. I have owned several over the years, but have since gone to a MCE 2005, seperate card and tuners for multimedia. I still run an AIW 9700pro in a rig, but my main entertainent PC uses X1800 XL and Sapphire Theatrix. The X1800 XL is horribly loud with the stock HS/F, so for a quiet environment, you'll need aftermarket cooling.

 

[ElJefe69]

I do thank you for your sober comments.

I live in a large suburban area where you can hear the leaves rustle if the windows are open. closed, I have very silent/sealed brand new windows. I can hear my girlfriend breathing slowly 15 feet away from me as she sleeps.

I can only do that because I have a near inaudible computer setup. When I game, I max out the rear fan. Not gaming, I have fan at like 7 volts. Papst 120mm on a controller. Besides that fan, and the suspended 160 gb spinpoint 80 samsung HD, there are no moving parts in my system to generate noise. You would be surprised, even in a war game, the silence is nice, I can hear the slightest shot and movement around me all the time.

the phantom 350's pci-e line is good enough to feed the card despite the theoretical numbers and wattage claims of ati. I do appreciate that warning though. IT got me very nervous and hesitant but I winged it and it works fine.

Also, the x1900, despite wisdom saying NO, is a great choice. the antialiasing and AF are amazing on it, best 3d clarity ever have I seen. DVD's look similar but are SLIGHTLY clearer on this compared to the 9800 pro aiw I had in here. THe downclock of the ram and of the gpu I think is what allowed this to be well and happy using the zalman 2nd generation gpu block. Cpu block is 1st generation, apparently, thats the best combo for a warmer system.

I thank you for all the input, I hope i can sway some to the silent side of the force soon.... I just dare you to turn off your computer, shut your windows, turn off the A/C and try and think vs the opposite way around. You will be relaxed and clearer of thought with the silence.

 

[LittleNemoNES]

Where are the naked women?

 

[Fox5]

Originally posted by: ElJefe69
I do thank you for your sober comments.

I live in a large suburban area where you can hear the leaves rustle if the windows are open. closed, I have very silent/sealed brand new windows. I can hear my girlfriend breathing slowly 15 feet away from me as she sleeps.

I can only do that because I have a near inaudible computer setup. When I game, I max out the rear fan. Not gaming, I have fan at like 7 volts. Papst 120mm on a controller. Besides that fan, and the suspended 160 gb spinpoint 80 samsung HD, there are no moving parts in my system to generate noise. You would be surprised, even in a war game, the silence is nice, I can hear the slightest shot and movement around me all the time.

the phantom 350's pci-e line is good enough to feed the card despite the theoretical numbers and wattage claims of ati. I do appreciate that warning though. IT got me very nervous and hesitant but I winged it and it works fine.

Also, the x1900, despite wisdom saying NO, is a great choice. the antialiasing and AF are amazing on it, best 3d clarity ever have I seen. DVD's look similar but are SLIGHTLY clearer on this compared to the 9800 pro aiw I had in here. THe downclock of the ram and of the gpu I think is what allowed this to be well and happy using the zalman 2nd generation gpu block. Cpu block is 1st generation, apparently, thats the best combo for a warmer system.

I thank you for all the input, I hope i can sway some to the silent side of the force soon.... I just dare you to turn off your computer, shut your windows, turn off the A/C and try and think vs the opposite way around. You will be relaxed and clearer of thought with the silence.

Hmm, and I thought I was going excessively silent by permanently running my cpu fan at 2000rpm (though it has a max of around 6000rpm I think), running an antec neopower 2, and replacing all my system fans with panasonic panaflos. It's not silent, but it is generally lower than ambient noise if there's anything else going on, and much better than what I had prior. (generic 550w power supply, that though it delivered on its ratings and performed even better than the antec, it was also rather loud, the cpu fan was never an acceptable volume, and the new system fans are silent compared to what I once had)
I'm not sure how much volume my x800xt contributes to the PC, but it's not very loud. It's actually a gigabyte, so it's possible the included cooler is quieter than the ati standard, though likely it's the same.

 

[v8envy]

Two words: water cooling. I haven't been as obsessive as some re: silence of my main PC. It's still audible, around the same amount of noise as a current generation TiVO and much less than the previous xbox. But after hearing (or, more accurately, NOT hearing) a much higher spec water cooled rig, well. No comparison.

I also get a good chuckle out of the 'd00dz ur seasonic iz too weak for ur rig get a 600 watt chrome glowing blinged one instead' comments. Video card makers have been recommending obscene power ratings due to 1. older model PSUs with all the wattage on the 3.3 and 5v rails and 2. 230 watt PSUs marketed as 500 watt units. If your PSU is a reputable one you can get by with much less rated wattage than 'required.'

My X1800XT is being powered by a '230 watt' Delta PSU. Beat THAT.

 

[Howard]

Originally posted by: ElJefe69
for a regular glitzy psu doesnt have the above 80% efficiency of a phantom, you would need a 450 watt psu as it only gives out 350 of wattage under load.

Where did you get this idea? This is totally wrong.

(really, no psu exceeds 85% except for a 430 s12 seasonic)

http://www.silentpcreview.com/article226-page4.html

Doesn't seem like it goes over 85% to me (check the bottom, CORRECTED EFFICIENCY). It'll be higher with 240VAC, but you live in New York.

Try these, much closer to 85%: http://www.silentpcreview.com/article263-page5.html

http://www.silentpcreview.com/article261-page3.html

 

[fbrdphreak]

Originally posted by: ElJefe69
does a shift from 80nm to 90nm bring:
a. same mhz and noticably cooler operation Noticeably? Probly not, but will be somewhat cooler.
b. same mhz and like less than 10% lower wattage, aka, not really noticable Correct
c. more mhz for the AIW on account of more headroom with single slot cooler Doubt they will change clocks.
d. probably wont come out on the AIW anytime soon as this card is apparently difficult to design as it is. Actually it will likely appear in 80nm eventually, I'll explain why momentarily.
e. lots of marketechture and more profits for cheaper chips but no difference at all for anything. Not quite, see below

Smaller process sizes allow for cooler running transistors. Part of the reason for this is that less current is needed to switch a transistor from on to off, but without careful designing you can actually waste more power due to "gate leakage." Trying to stay on topic here, while there will be a slight power/heat drop from 90->80nm the big advantage for ATI is cost. If you produce a 12" wafer and go from 90nm to 80nm, you can now fit more dies on that same wafer. This allows you to produce GPU's cheaper, as you can make more on a single wafer. I'd say 80nm is mostly a cost saving technique, but also it might not even be a choice ATI is making. ATI's doesn't fab its own GPU's; they hire the work out to companies like TSMC. TSMC might be switching to 80nm and thus ATI gets that benefit.

Hope that answered your actual questions

 

[Maxspeed996]

Naked Women? I've been reading to here , and I've yet to see any.