7800 specs leaked (and possibly prices)

[thilanliyan]

Let's face it, if they had released 7970 @ 1100core clocks everyone would be quiet now.

I doubt it, some people want GTX 580 SLI performance for $200! Anything else is a turd and is not good enough.

AND they want cards that OC like Hades' offspring!

 

[Phynaz]

Okay ignore the analogy and tell me if you're okay with price gouging? Cause that's what AMD has done thus far.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_gouging

Having a new product debut at the same as as a prior product is not price gouging.

 

[BallaTheFeared]

Who wouldn't want that?

 

[xbanzai89]

This makes no sense. If the 7870 handily beats a 6970 it's at 7950 levels. It will need to be at 6970 level performance. If they offer 580 performance it's too close to 7950 levels.
Unfortunately AMD made their bed when they priced the 7970 so high. They can't offer you any more price/performance than 6950/6970 otherwise that would kill 7970/7950 sales. Already the 69XX series makes the 79XX series look silly as far as price/performance goes. If they were to offer even more bang for the buck with 78xx series sales for the 79xx would plummet.
My guess is 6970 performance +- 5% at ~$400 for 7870
And 6950 performance +- 5% at ~$350 for 7850.

I don't agree with this conclusion at all. People looking to spend $450+ on a GPU on looking for any extra performance they can get even if its 15% (GTX 570 -> GTX 580). AMD pricing these 7800 series lower then this $400 BS isn't going to be a issue for the company as a result. People that will be looking to upgrade to these probably will have anything from a 5770 to a 6870. These cards will be way out of their pricing bracket as a result if its $400. AMD would only be hurting themselves not having a well priced card that performs at a good level around $250.

 

[MrK6]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_gouging

Have a new product debut at the same as as a prior product is not price gouging.

While we're at it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply_and_demand

 

[Homeles]

I don't agree with this conclusion at all. People looking to spend $450+ on a GPU on looking for any extra performance they can get even if its 15% (GTX 570 -> GTX 580). AMD pricing these 7800 series lower then this $400 BS isn't going to be a issue for the company as a result. People that will be looking to upgrade to these probably will have anything from a 5770 to a 6870. These cards will be way out of their pricing bracket as a result if its $400. AMD would only be hurting themselves not having a well priced card that performs at a good level around $250.

Those prices are complete crap. 7870/7850 should be around $300/$250 respectively.

 

[LOL_Wut_Axel]

Those prices are complete crap. 7870/7850 should be around $300/$250 respectively.

That's probably very close to the prices they'll be at.

 

[RussianSensation]

7950 undercut the 580 by $50...

Using an already overpriced card to justify the price of another card doesn't make for a compelling pricing argument for me. I almost never recommended GTX580 over a factory preoverclocked $370 GTX570. So to me GTX580 was overpriced from day 1.

No you don't. The "30-50%" extra performance is there. It's 30% faster (1.0/.77 = 29.8% faster at 1920x1200, or 1.0/.72 = 38.9% faster at 2560x1600) than the 6970, and has a die that's roughly 10% smaller. Mind you, drivers have improved since then.

Why do people keep comparing HD7970 to the HD6970? :\

HD7970 is NOT a replacement for an HD6970. And neither is an HD7950 a replacement for the HD6950. Both of those cards are replacements for a card AMD never sold last generation because AMD never had a $450-500 card last generation. So now, if they are going try to sell a "high-end" single GPU card for $450-550, it better have the goods to go toe-to-toe with NV's best GPU just like 9800XT, X800XT PE, X1800XT, X1900XT, etc did. I don't think it will. I think high-end Kepler will easily beat HD7970, which will either force AMD to release much faster clocked 7970, or lower prices. But like I said, if you upgrade every 6 months, get the HD7970. If Kepler is faster, sell the 7970, if not keep the 7970.

You are missing the point I am making: Almost the entire HD7000 generation is not moving the price / performance curve. HD7750, 7770 are horrible and HD7950 barely manages to obsolete the 15 months old GTX580. That's not particularly impressive to anyone who has followed hardware for 5-10 years.

High price is due to higher demand than supply can keep up with. When Kepler launches, the prices should drop dramatically - not because Kepler is superior, but because there will be two companies supplying cards instead of one.

If Kepler is slower, prices wouldn't drop at all. If HD7970 is still faster than Kepler, why would AMD drop the prices below $550?

AMD isn't able to keep up with demand, even though everyone is whining about their pricing. I mean, there's only 4 models of 7970s in stock on newegg, out of 12 (1 deactivated). Why lower prices if they're selling out like that?

Here in Toronto at Canada Computers:

Gigabyte reference = 45 available
Sapphire reference = too many to count

In any event, if you must upgrade now, get the 7970. It's no different than buying the HD5870 was 6 months before Fermi launched.

 

[Homeles]

You are missing the point I am making: Almost the entire HD7000 generation is not moving the price / performance curve. HD7750, 7770 are horrible and HD7950 barely manages to obsolete the 15 months old GTX580. That's not particularly impressive to anyone who has followed hardware for 5-10 years.

That is the combined fault of Nvidia being late to market and TSMC for not having the yields and wafer production to support a lower pricing.

The 7970 is absolutely the replacement for the 6970.

7970 = 352mm²
6970 = 389mm²

Just because it's selling for $550 relative to older cards doesn't mean it isn't the replacement. When Kepler finally arrives and TSMC's production ramps up, you'll probably see the 7970 drop to $400, perhaps lower. If the 28nm process were allowed to mature as much as the 40nm process has (which is ancient), and the 7970 was still in production, you'd probably see prices as low as $350.

 

[Quantos]

Hang on, if the 7850/70 are respectively $300 and $400, that's what... a $150 gap down to the 7770? Even assuming a 7790 and/or a 7830, that's a bloody huge gap. Very unlikely.

 

[AtenRa]

I believe the pricing will be like this,

HD7850 2GB = $299
HD7870 2GB = $349

From the specs, im expecting the HD7870 to be close to HD6970/GTX570 at 1080/1200p and close to GTX580 at 2560x1600 in DX-11 games.

Due to GCN HD7870 will loose or be close to the HD6970 in games that are coded for VLIW architectures like AVP, Deus-Ex, Dragon Age II and Shogun 2.


It seams to me that prices are high due to low inventory (low yields, single TSMC manufacturing line with too many jumping on the 28nm early AMD, NVIDIA, Apple etc)

People with HD6900, GTX560 Τι and GTX570 will be just fine with what they already have.
People with HD4800, HD5700 will see a nice performance boost in DX-11 with low power usage bellow 180W.

edit: Im expecting the Die Size to be close to 240-250mm2 (close to HD6800)

 

[toyota]

This post is just completely illogical.

The HD 7970 is faster than the GTX 580. Where should they have priced it? SHouldn't you be mad at nVidia for never lowering the MSRP on their card after a whole year?

It won't stop people from buying the higher priced nVidia card.

I am so damn sick of some people saying its faster than the gtx580 so it should be more expensive. give me a break and nearly everyone considered the gtx580 to be a very poor value so beating it by 20-25% with a next gen 28nm card and charging more is not much of accomplishment. we usually get much faster next gen cards for around the same price points as the card it replaces. the 7970 is only 40% faster than the 6970 yet costs 50% more. that means we actually get LESS card for the money than the previous 6900 series. and the high prices trickle down so we end up paying way more money across the board.

 

[RussianSensation]

I'm well aware of Moore's Law. And I haven't said anything to anyone who said something similar to what you just said, ie "I expected more."

Your entire position in the previous thread that prices are fine since as a consumer you don't care what happens tomorrow or before. When you are ready, you buy. Based on that position, that means your buying choices aren't dictated at all even if Kepler is 100x faster or 50x slower. So why are you defending price/performance for HD7950? GTX580 gave that level of performance 15 months ago at $500.

Defending the price/performance of HD7950 today automatically means that to you GTX580 was also fairly priced since it came out 15 months ago and offered pretty much similar performance....but if you thought GTX580 was reasonably priced 15 months ago, chances are you would have owned it already making HD7950 irrelevant. Perhaps that means you didn't have $500 15 months ago (or NV doesn't run 6 displays), and hence to you HD7950 looks "amazing today" because you are ready to buy. Don't you think that's a very one-sided position you are taking when the rest of the market has seen HD7950 level of performance for 15 months and could care less if it can run 6 displays? If you don't follow GPU cycles, it's understandable that HD7950 is great compared to GTX580, but then that's the bare minimum expected on a new architecture + node shrink.

And what I'm quoting you saying now I have no issue with. I expected more too - I didn't get it. I also expected my team to win the Super Bowl - they didn't. Oh well.

Since you said as a consumer you come on here once in a blue moon how are you commenting on every thread that discusses price/performance cycles, or how 28nm GPU with a new architecture that's barely faster than a GTX580 15 months later is NOT a FAIL. But yet since you said you buy when you are ready to buy regardless of market trends, you clearly don't care for GPU cycles, or price/performance cycles. In your case, you have $500-600, you go into a store and buy. So obviously you have 0 issues with current pricing. That's 100% understandable. But then don't attack those of us who think its pricing is out of whack vs. Moore's Law and historical improvements in price/performance curve.

Recall how GTX280 was $649 and but then AMD launched HD4800 series. Many of us here cared to see how HD4800 would do and we thought GTX280 was insanely overpriced. But given the type of consumer you describe yourself to be, if you were ready to buy a GTX280 for $600, you would have and moved on. But then don't knock people who want HD4870 style price/performance shakedown. Were you there defending GTX280's $650 price tag?

I'll also be buying a Kepler (hopefully.) I'm not even sure why you have an issue with my buying situation outside of trying to make snide accussations without merit. Now I wonder if you'll edit these comments out in your classic fashion. We'll see I guess.

I don't have any issue with your buying situation but in that you try to project your personal buying trends to support that HD7950 is reasonably priced in the context of global GPU cycles. In context of global GPU cycles, HD7950s price/performance is an utter failure. Since you don't care for GPU cycles, you choose to conveniently ignore them since you weren't ready to buy that level of performance 15 months ago. How does that make any sense to anyone that follows GPU cycles?

Your view goes like this:

"I buy the best card available at the price I want to spend when I am ready. I wasn't ready to buy 15 months ago. I am ready to buy now. I see HD7950 is better than GTX580. HD7950 is awesome".

You think HD7950 is awesome at $450-500. Where were you 15 months ago when GTX580 offered that performance for the same price? You weren't ready to buy, but yet you are commenting how HD7950 is fairly priced......because now you are ready. That's a really global overview of the GPU market right there coming from you. Just don't expect people to agree. HD7950 didn't move the price/performance curve, and is therefore a failure at the current price.

If you thought GTX580 was a great buy 15 months ago, then you'd think HD7950 is a horrible buy today since it brought almost 0 performance increase 15 months later. If you thought GTX580 was too expensive in light of GTX570 15 months ago, then the fact that HD7950 is barely faster is EVEN worse.

So explain why you think HD7950 is "reasonably" priced? It's because you are ready to drop $500 today and weren't ready 15 months ago. We get that. But then you are missing the point of everyone else here who is coming from a viewpoint that 15 months later, it's expected that the market gets more performance.

 

[Madcatatlas]

I am so damn sick of some people saying its faster than the gtx580 so it should be more expensive. give me a break and nearly everyone considered the gtx580 to be a very poor value so beating it by 20-25% with a next gen 28nm card and charging more is not much of accomplishment. we usually get much faster next gen cards for around the same price points as the card it replaces. the 7970 is only 40% faster than the 6970 yet costs 50% more. that means we actually get LESS card for the money than the previous 6900 series. and the high prices trickle down so we end up paying way more money across the board.

its hilarious to see how the 7970 is a few % slower each time you compare it to the 580. Keep it up toyota, you will probably get to a point where you think its the same performance for more dollar...lol

 

[toyota]

its hilarious to see how the 7970 is a few % slower each time you compare it to the 580. Keep it up toyota, you will probably get to a point where you think its the same performance for more dollar...lol

wtf are you talking about? reviews show it 20-25% faster and where have I have said differently?

 

[tviceman]

I am so damn sick of some people saying its faster than the gtx580 so it should be more expensive. give me a break and nearly everyone considered the gtx580 to be a very poor value so beating it by 20-25% with a next gen 28nm card and charging more is not much of accomplishment. we usually get much faster next gen cards for around the same price points as the card it replaces. the 7970 is only 40% faster than the 6970 yet costs 50% more. that means we actually get LESS card for the money than the previous 6900 series. and the high prices trickle down so we end up paying way more money across the board.

Really, what it comes down to, is that anyone trying to justify the exorbitant prices a GPU that, historically for it's die size, has been around ~$200 less expensive either just doesn't care or is an extreme fanboy. If they just don't care, then they want the high end no matter the cost and God bless them. If they are fanboy elite EX03, then there is no arguing with them because no matter what, they think they are right.

 

[lifeblood]

It's a good thing I feel both AMD and NV make good cards. I need to replace my 4830 and I have $250 to do it with. I want a 7950, but if AMD tries to make me spend $300 for it, I'll buy a 560 TI which is still a damn good card.

 

[tviceman]

its hilarious to see how the 7970 is a few % slower each time you compare it to the 580. Keep it up toyota, you will probably get to a point where you think its the same performance for more dollar...lol

wtf are you talking about? reviews show it 20-25% faster and where have I have said differently?

Meanwhile if you look at straight averages the 7970 is only around 15-25% faster than the GTX 580 in our tests, with its advantage being highly game dependent. It always wins at 2560 and 1920, but there are some cases where it’s not much of a win.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/5261/amd-radeon-hd-7970-review/28

I "cherry picked" the most reputable site (this one) and the site that has the best aggregate data (techpowerup). I don't think toyota is being unfair in assessing how fast the hd7970 is.

 

[Madcatatlas]

wtf are you talking about? reviews show it 20-25% faster and where have I have said differently?

wtf are you talking about? open your eyes and see. the 7970 at 1100 core is on average about 40-45% faster than an overclocked 580.

 

[railven]

Your entire position in the previous thread that prices are fine since as a consumer you don't care what happens tomorrow or before. When you are ready, you buy. Based on that position, that means your buying choices aren't dictated at all even if Kepler is 100x faster or 50x slower. So why are you defending price/performance for HD7950? GTX580 gave that level of performance 15 months ago at $500.

Your right, I don't care what happens after I buy, because frankly - it no longer involves me. What, you expect me to return my purchase? If I can get a difference credit, I will, outside of that - what else am I suppose to do after I buy? Buy something else because it has more performance for the same price?

Okay Forum CEO, where would you price the HD 7950? Frankly put, cheaper than the GTX 580 MSRP looked decent to me. It was marginally faster, has more RAM and offers some new features. Where would you price it?

Defending the price/performance of HD7950 today automatically means that to you GTX580 was also fairly priced since it came out 15 months ago....but if you thought GTX580 was reasonably priced 15 months ago, chances are you would have owned it already making HD7950 irrelevant. Perhaps that means you didn't have $500 15 months ago (or NV doesn't run 6 displays), and hence to you HD7950 looks "amazing today" because you are ready to buy. Don't you think that's a very one-sided position you are taking when the rest of the market has seen HD7950 level of performance for 15 months and could care less if it can run 6 displays?

Wow, way to generalize. I didn't think the GTX 580 was poorly priced. It was the top rated single GPU card. It commanded it's own price. It had no competition.

What one side am I taking? You think my position would change if nVidia releases a faster card than the HD 7970 and cost more? Nope, my position would then defend nVidia's card for the same reason.

I wasn't in the market to buy when GTX 580 launched. Sorry, I don't buy every 6 months. Is that so hard to believe?

Since you said as a consumer you come on here once in a blue moon how are you commenting on every thread that discusses price/performance cycles, or how 28nm GPU with a new architecture that's barely faster than a GTX580 15 months later is NOT a FAIL. But yet since you said you buy when you are ready to buy regardless of market trends, you clearly don't care for GPU cycles, or price/performance cycles. In your case, you have $500-600, you go into a store and buy. So obviously you have 0 issues with current pricing. that's 100% understandable. But then don't attack those of us who think its pricing is out of whack vs. its performance.

I'm not attacking anyone. I'm doing the same as you - defending my position. You make snide comments about me and try to belittle me because I'm not buying every new refresh/release. How does that work?

People are arguing about price in a situation where there is currently no competition. I've said from the start, I expect a price war to start when nVidia releases. I still have that expectation.

What I post against are people claiming the card doesn't justify it's price. So, again, Forum CEO - where would you price the HD 7970 if beats your competitor's top card in every single measurable metric?

Recall how GTX280 was $649 and but then AMD launched HD4800 series. Many of us here cared to see how HD4800 would do and we thought GTX280 was insanely overpriced. But given the type of consumer you describe yourself as, if you were ready to buy a GTX280, you would have and moved on. But then don't knock people who want HD4870 style price/performance shakedown.

What? How have I knocked anyone? Again, I'm not making ad hominem attacks on people. Is that your new defense? You've clearly misinterpreted things I've said before, now you shift from arguing a poor position to accusing me of "knock[ing]" people based on their purchases? Really now? Any other accussations you want to throw my way?

I don't have any issue with your buying situation. But your view isn't global enough. You think HD7950 is awesome at $450-500. Where were you 15 months ago when GTX580 offered that performance for the same price?

Thanks, glad I got your blessing on my purchasing habits. Where was I when the GTX 580 launched? On the sidelines watching you guys fight. I wasn't allowed to buy. Does that matter? And before you ask - if you look above, I already said I had zero problem with the top tier card costing the most money.

And more of these fallacies, where did I ever use "awesome" to describe the HD 7950? You sure are reaching to even counter my point:

It has more RAM, it is marginally better, and at MSRP it is cheaper than the current MSRP of it's rival competitor.

How is that even a fail? Oh yeah, because it doesn't meet your criteria for what a better card SHOULD be, so like I asked earlier, Forum CEO - what would you price it?

If you thought GTX580 was a great buy 15 months ago, then you'd think HD7950 is a horrible buy today since it brought almost 0 performance increase 15 months later. If you thought GTX580 was too expensive in light of GTX570 15 months ago, then the fact that HD7950 is barely faster is EVEN worse.

What? If I had bought a GTX 580 15 months ago I wouldn't even be looking at a HD 7950 since I have similar (I gave myself the same reason when HD 6970, while I couldn't buy - I told myself "meh it's not even that much better") but I wouldn't become a forum warrior and call it a "horrible buy." People who are in the market now, not 15 months ago, have another option at cheaper price point. If they want more performance there is another card above, if they want more performance than that buy two cards, if yet they want more - I guess wait. Something better will come along.

So explain why you think HD7950 is "reasonably" priced? It's because you are ready to drop $500 today and weren't ready 15 months ago. We get that. But then you are missing the point of everyone else here who is coming from a viewpoint that 15 months later, it's expected that the market gets more performance.

Holy crap, broken record time:

HD 7950 is reasonably price to me because it has more VRAM, is marginally faster (yes Toyota, I get with 4xAA it is 0% faster, I'm aware of that), and it has a lower price tag.

To those that bought 15 months ago, you don't have to upgrade your card is still great, wait for Kepler it may possible offer you something. To those buying now, you have two good cards to choose from, look at game reviews and buy which fits your needs best.

Anything else?

I am so damn sick of some people saying its faster than the gtx580 so it should be more expensive. give me a break and nearly everyone considered the gtx580 to be a very poor value so beating it by 20% with a next gen 28nm card and charging more is not much of accomplishment. we usually get much faster next gen cards for around the same price points as the card it replaces. the 7970 is only 40% faster than the 6970 yet costs 50% more. that means we actually get LESS card for the money than the previous 6900 series. and the high prices trickle down so we end up paying way more money across the board.

Name your price, where would you price the card then? Since you don't like the price, nor people who can reason the price, by all means - name the price?

 

[railven]

Really, what it comes down to, is that anyone trying to justify the exorbitant prices a GPU that, historically for it's die size, has been around ~$200 less expensive either just doesn't care or is an extreme fanboy. If they just don't care, then they want the high end no matter the cost and God bless them. If they are fanboy elite EX03, then there is no arguing with them because no matter what, they think they are right.

Another clear example of how people attack those that have no issue with the price. Now I'm a fanboy elite EX03 because I can reason the price?

I paid $500 for my HD 5870 in 2010. I'll probably be paying $560 for my HD 7970 in 2012. The card is on average without OC 60% faster than my old card. The price increase to me in time of change is about 12%.

Holy crap!? You guys are attacking my position because I have no issue with the price? Really?

That is just simply...amazing.

 

[toyota]

wtf are you talking about? open your eyes and see. the 7970 at 1100 core is on average about 40-45% faster than an overclocked 580.

so you falsely accuse me of lowering numbers each time I make a comparison and I ask for proof and this is your come back?

tviceman clearly listed info of where I got that from. I guess even anandtech is wrong for claiming 15-25% which is even lower than what I was saying?

 

[MrK6]

Really, what it comes down to, is that anyone trying to justify the exorbitant prices a GPU that, historically for it's die size, has been around ~$200 less expensive either just doesn't care or is an extreme fanboy. If they just don't care, then they want the high end no matter the cost and God bless them. If they are fanboy elite EX03, then there is no arguing with them because no matter what, they think they are right.

This just shows a clear lack of understanding simple supply and demand and how slow 28 nm production is right now.

I find it ironic when the people who accuse others of being fanboys are actually the ignorant ones.

 

[Concillian]

The only good thing I see here is 32 ROPs.

Otherwise... the pricing here, if true, is too rich for my blood, hope the cards rot.

I was strongly considering getting one in the 7850 @ $250 range, but these are out of the price range I'm willing to pay.

 

[RussianSensation]

Really, what it comes down to, is that anyone trying to justify the exorbitant prices a GPU that, historically for it's die size, has been around ~$200 less expensive either just doesn't care or is an extreme fanboy. If they just don't care, then they want the high end no matter the cost and God bless them. If they are fanboy elite EX03, then there is no arguing with them because no matter what, they think they are right.

It's even more amusing when the same people who used to claim how HD6950 @ 6970 was best bang for the buck and GTX580 wasn't worth its price are now justifying HD7950's $450 price! It took AMD 15 months to barely beat a GTX580 at $450. Now HD7950 is awesome, and yet before, GTX580 wasn't "fast enough over the 6970". What?

Hmm.... :sneaky:

Basically, GTX580 didn't warrant the $150 higher price while giving us HD7950 level of performance for 15 months, but waiting for HD7950 for 15 months was definitely worth it. Oh ya, and HD6970 performed "almost the same as GTX580 at 2560x1600", but HD7950 is miles faster....and of course GTX580 didn't overclock 20%+ either....

15 months later for a 5-6 fps increase in modern games, despite a factory pre-overclock, ONLY for $499.