7800 specs leaked (and possibly prices)

[badb0y]

Lol at these prices I knew the mid range was going to get screwed when AMD stretched the price out.

 

[railven]

Lol at these prices I knew the mid range was going to get screwed when AMD stretched the price out.

But we haven't seen prices yet. Hopefully, (emphasis on hopefully), the screwing we get isn't as bad as the OP is guessing.

...

Hopefully.

It reminds me when gas prices were insane (a few years back) and buying Premium (Super/Ultra/God Piss whatever it's called in your area) was only 5 cents more than regular. My car was guzzling that crap down!

If it is $400 beans for the OC one, just cough up the extra $20 and get a 7950 and OC it to 7970 speeds and call it a day.

 

[TakeNoPrisoners]

The reason prices are so high is AMD wants money and there is no competition yet from NVIDIA.

 

[Homeles]

The reason prices are so high is AMD wants money and there is no competition yet from NVIDIA.

The reason why the prices are so high is because the cards are selling out. Why would anyone lower their prices if they're selling them faster than they can produce them?

Complaints about AMD's prices are completely unfounded. If you're upset about high prices, cry about Nvidia being late or TSMC's production being too low, or blame the consumers for buying the cards. It'd be utterly moronic for AMD to lower their pricing right now.

 

[BallaTheFeared]

huh? You bought magic 470s?

Yes, pixie dust and all.

 

[RussianSensation]

15-16 months later and we're getting the same price/performance ratio or worse than AMD's previous 6xxx series. Am I the only one seeing the suck in this?

:thumbsup:

HD7870 has lower compute performance in double-precision and lower memory bandwidth than HD6970. The fact of the matter is we had HD6950 2GB that unlocked left right and center for 12+ months at $250. If HD7870 launches at $299, it would also have to convincingly thrash the GTX570 as well. Therefore, HD7870 should cost no more than $299 at most. If it can't outright beat HD6970/570, $249 or below would makes sense since almost all HD6950s could be made into a 6970. Since it's captain Read at the wheel, I am guessing at least $299, and most likely $349.

"Back of the envelope calculation"

HD7970 vs. 6970
Memory Bandwidth = +50%
Shader Performance = +40%
TMU Performance = +40%
ROP Performance = + 55% (32 ROPs, each 1.5x more efficient, 925 vs. 880 clocks)
Overall Performance increase: 42% for 65% more transistors (4.3 vs. 2.6)

HD7870 vs. 6970
Memory Bandwidth = - 12.5%
Shader Performance = -5.3%
TMU Performance = -5.3%
ROP Performance = + 70% (32 ROPs, each 1.5x more efficient, and 1000 vs. 880 clocks)

HD7970 needed 65% more transistors to gain about 42% more performance. Therefore, 4.3B / 1.42 = 3.0B

HD7870 would need about 3.0B transistors to match an HD6970.

This one is going to be close. I can see HD7870 winning in DX11 games with Tessellation and losing in DX9 games (the weak spot of GCN architecture).

 

[Homeles]

:thumbsup:
HD7970 needed 65% more transistors to gain about 42% more performance. Therefore, 4.3B / 1.42 = 3.0B

HD7870 would need about 3.0B transistors to match an HD6970.

This one is going to be close. I can see HD7870 winning in DX11 games with Tessellation and losing in DX9 games (the weak spot of GCN architecture).

Keep in mind, extra transistors went towards the memory bus, which really doesn't affect performance except at extreme resolutions.

 

[RussianSensation]

Keep in mind, extra transistors went towards the memory bus, which really doesn't affect performance except at extreme resolutions.

Ya, true. That's why I think it's going to be close. The extra ROP performance is a huge advantage that HD7870 holds. In fact, if I am not mistaken, it looks like it will have 8% more theoretical pixel fill-rate than the mighty HD7970.

I think the only problem is that AMD went back to pricing the way they used to when they were on top and a lot of people had their expectations up because of 4XXX and 5XXX pricing.

The pricing is not the problem. It's price relative to performance. HD7750, 7770 (especially!) and HD7950 didn't move the price/performance curve an ounce. HD7970 gets the pass for being the fastest card at the moment.

No one would be upset if AMD sold HD7950 and HD7970 at 1150-1200 GPU clocks. Where is that 30-50% extra performance that we normally get with Moore's Law? It's there but you are now required to overclock to get it. I am not sure I think that's fair since now you are more or less asking the consumer to prop up an additional $50 to get a card with a decent air cooler because a reference cooler + 30% overclock is a dustbuster. Obviously, AMD is not obliged to follow the price/performance curve. It's completely up to them, but then they can't expect the same enthusiastic reception.

There is nothing wrong with high price if you bring premium performance out of the gate. HD7900 series only has premium performance in the context of a 2-year-old 40nm tech. That doesn't scream premium to a lot of people. Let's see how things shake out with Kepler. Hopefully we get some competition.

 

[maniac5999]

:thumbsup:

HD7870 has lower compute performance in double-precision and lower memory bandwidth than HD6970. The fact of the matter is we had HD6950 2GB that unlocked left right and center for 12+ months at $250. If HD7870 launches at $299, it would also have to convincingly thrash the GTX570 as well. Therefore, HD7870 should cost no more than $299 at most. If it can't outright beat HD6970/570, $249 or below would makes sense since almost all HD6950s could be made into a 6970. Since it's captain Read at the wheel, I am guessing at least $299, and most likely $349.

Careful now, the 6970 and 6950 seem like they're being EOL'd much faster than the 68XX cards. Right now Newegg doesn't have a single 6950 in stock, and only 1 6970, and that one's going for $400. (the other 6970's are all priced at $350+) Very few of your 'average' users would unlock a 6950, you have to remember that the people who read this forum have a much higher technical ability than your average GPU buyer. If the 7870 performs like a 6970, compare it to a 6970, not a 6950.

 

[BallaTheFeared]

Ya, true. That's why I think it's going to be close. The extra ROP performance is a huge advantage that HD7870 holds. In fact, if I am not mistaken, it looks like it will have 8% more theoretical pixel fill-rate than the mighty HD7970.



The pricing is not the problem. It's price relative to performance. HD7750, 7770 (especially!) and HD7950 didn't move the price/performance curve an ounce. HD7970 gets the pass for being the fastest card at the moment.

No one would be upset if AMD sold HD7950 and HD7970 at 1150-1200 GPU clocks. Where is that 30% extra performance that we normally get with Moore's Law? It's there but you are now required to overclock to get it. I am not sure I think that's fair since now you are more or less asking the consumer to prop up an additional $50 to get a card with a decent air cooler because a reference cooler + 30% overclock is a dustbuster.

There is nothing wrong with high price if you bring premium performance out of the gate. HD7900 series only has premium performance in the context of a 2 year old 40nm tech. That's doesn't scream premium to me. Let's see how things shake out with Kepler. Hopefully we get some competition.

^ I like your logic.

 

[railven]

There is nothing wrong with high price if you bring premium performance out of the gate. HD7900 series only has premium performance in the context of a 2-year-old 40nm tech. That doesn't scream premium to a lot of people. Let's see how things shake out with Kepler. Hopefully we get some competition.

What does that even mean? So people don't consider it a premium product if it's beating another premium product? What else would it compare to at launch? The BigK?

Are people really this ignorant? "It doesn't beat the BigK, so not worth it."

/facepalm

It's a premium product NOW, ie the current moment in time, when BigK launches (and beats it) then we can return to look price if BigK is priced cheaply, but if BigK is priced according (and no ceilings drop) it (HD 7970) will no longer be a "premium" product.

My brain hurts from all this nonsense. "HA! It's only faster than a 2-year old card, that's hardly worth costing more." Really? For a smart guy, you can say some rather dumb things.

 

[RussianSensation]

Careful now, the 6970 and 6950 seem like they're being EOL'd much faster than the 68XX cards. Right now Newegg doesn't have a single 6950 in stock, and only 1 6970, and that one's going for $400. (the other 6970's are all priced at $350+) Very few of your 'average' users would unlock a 6950, you have to remember that the people who read this forum have a much higher technical ability than your average GPU buyer. If the 7870 performs like a 6970, compare it to a 6970, not a 6950.

Oh, I understand that. For new consumers, an HD6950 or an HD6970 is a non-starter since they are EOL. Consumers will be better off buying a new HD7850/7870 since HD6950/6970 prices are too high now.

But then if HD7870 is a replacement for mid-range, that's HD6870. How much is that card? $145-160.

If HD7870 is a replacement for the HD6970, it better smash it in performance. Will it? I don't think so since HD7950 is only 20% faster. Not much room. This card makes more sense for HD4870/4890 buyers who held off upgrading all this time or new consumers that don't follow about GPU cycles and want the best card at $299 NOW.

 

[SirPauly]

What does that even mean? So people don't consider it a premium product if it's beating another premium product? What else would it compare to at launch? The BigK?

Are people really this ignorant? "It doesn't beat the BigK, so not worth it."

/facepalm

It's a premium product NOW, ie the current moment in time, when BigK launches (and beats it) then we can return to look price if BigK is priced cheaply, but if BigK is priced according (and no ceilings drop) it (HD 7970) will no longer be a "premium" product.

My brain hurts from all this nonsense. "HA! It's only faster than a 2-year old card, that's hardly worth costing more." Really? For a smart guy, you can say some rather dumb things.

It's actually not ignorant or even dumb!

 

[zokudu]

Oh, I understand that. For new consumers, an HD6950 or an HD6970 is a non-starter since they are EOL. Consumers will be better off buying a new HD7850/7870 since HD6950/6970 prices are too high now.

But then if HD7870 is a replacement for mid-range, that's HD6870. How much is that card? $145-160.

If HD7870 is a replacement for the HD6970, it better smash it in performance. Will it? I don't think so since HD7950 is only 20% faster. Not much room.

So what's the point of the HD7870 again? To sucker in HD4870/4890 buyers that held off upgrading all this time or new consumers that don't follow about GPU cycles. Poor chaps.

That's me :'(

 

[formulav8]

Those prices are alittle wacky. I thought the 1.5gb 7950 was in the $400 area? I don't know how AMD could have a lesser performing card at a similar price as the higher performing card. You will more likely see the 7870 in the $300-$349 price range. The 7850 in the $279-$300 range (depends where the bigger brother ends up).

 

[Grooveriding]

Ya, true. That's why I think it's going to be close. The extra ROP performance is a huge advantage that HD7870 holds. In fact, if I am not mistaken, it looks like it will have 8% more theoretical pixel fill-rate than the mighty HD7970.



The pricing is not the problem. It's price relative to performance. HD7750, 7770 (especially!) and HD7950 didn't move the price/performance curve an ounce. HD7970 gets the pass for being the fastest card at the moment.

No one would be upset if AMD sold HD7950 and HD7970 at 1150-1200 GPU clocks. Where is that 30% extra performance that we normally get with Moore's Law? It's there but you are now required to overclock to get it. I am not sure I think that's fair since now you are more or less asking the consumer to prop up an additional $50 to get a card with a decent air cooler because a reference cooler + 30% overclock is a dustbuster.

There is nothing wrong with high price if you bring premium performance out of the gate. HD7900 series only has premium performance in the context of a 2 year old 40nm tech. That's doesn't scream premium to me. Let's see how things shake out with Kepler. Hopefully we get some competition.

Just not seeing it the way you are, the 7970 is 25% faster than a 580 and 41% faster than a 6970. 41% is a decent showing considering we should take this in the context of AMD moving from their last best single gpu to their newest. Not AMD moving from nvidia's last best single gpu(still their current best) There are too many trying to do this. Nvidia builds their brand on a huge die single-gpu, AMD does not.

Premium previously unavailable performance, premium price. You don't need to overclock to get it. If you do overclock though, you get a card 50-80% faster than a GTX 580.

I think the only thing wrong with the 7970 is that it is clocked too conservatively. Something that is most certainly going to get resolved with a refresh. There are already custom cards out there that can push 1300 core, leaving a 580 in the stone age.

AMD may very well be fleecing and taking advantage of being first, if you don't like it, don't buy the cards. I think they are up to something because Tahiti is an amazing architecture in terms of how for every % you push clocks you get an equal correlating % increase in performance. Evergreen and Cayman sorely lacked there. Let's face it, if they had released 7970 @ 1100core clocks everyone would be quiet now. The card has the proven ability to be the beast that you'd expect it to be, but it's not clocked as it should be. This is the only flaw I see with it, it should of been clocked higher, they've left themselves open to nvidia clocking GK104 as high as is reasonable to look good in reviews.

Again, the lions share of the complaining seen on forums is coming from nvidia fanboys angry nvidia is late again/no longer the best, bandwagon jumpers and those in sticker shock expecting AMD to maintain their lower than nvidia price structure.

You don't have to like the prices, but they're obviously working, the cards are not seeing price drops and 7970s look to always be in and out of stock on newegg. People are buying the cards because they're the best cards out there.

There are a pile of leaked rumours on 7870/7850 pricing, the one in the OP is the highest and most laughable one out there. You'd have to be daft to believe those prices. $300 for a 7870, again you don't have to like the price because AMD is moving up their pricing across the board, but it's in line with that they have been doing.

Let's see if nvidia is actually going to cause prices to drop with the GK104. I am thinking they will not drop anywhere near what some hope, maybe $50 here and there. It still remains to be seen if this gen is simply going to cost everyone more as we keep hearing it is costing them more to move down to these smaller nodes. I'm expecting to pay at least $1200 for two GK100s, the 670ti/GK104 coming shortly should give all the price worriers their answer. Look at how it performs contrasted to how it is priced and compare that to what AMD is doing, until we are all able to do that, this is all hyperbole and guesswork.

 

[Paul98]

This is very sad if true, I hope this is only short time pricing so that they can clear out the current gen cards quicker. If not I am just going to have to wait till NVidia releases cards and see how they look.

I have been waiting a long time to upgrade, since I started to look at the upgrade prices just have gone up and up. I WILL not pay these prices for this performance. Right now just looks like we are going backwards in price/performance.

 

[RussianSensation]

What does that even mean? So people don't consider it a premium product if it's beating another premium product? My brain hurts from all this nonsense.

Didn't you already say in another thread you don't follow GPU cycles? In that case, the price/performance curve progress should be more or less irrelevant for you. I 100% understand your view and if you bought an HD7950 or HD7970 right now, I would say congratulations. For those of us who follow GPU cycles and Moore's law and how it impacts the price/performance progression, it's totally different. IF you MUST buy today or have $600 to blow on a new GPU, HD7970 is awesome, especially with overclocking. A lot of others can easily afford to wait until the price/performance curve reverts to historical fundamentals (and hopefully we get some next generation games too), while we smash console ports on our last generation PC hardware. Mass Effect 3 is next.

No one stops you from buying a $500-600 HD7900 series. :thumbsup: But based on you "about to pull the trigger for 2 months", it makes me think you don't think those cards are worth buying yet? What's the hold up since you say you buy when you are ready. Could it be you think Kepler has a strong shot making those prices irrelevant? That's why you are interested to see how it performs, at least? Kepler might be a flop. We don't know. If you must upgrade now, don't wait.

 

[Homeles]

Ya, true. That's why I think it's going to be close. The extra ROP performance is a huge advantage that HD7870 holds. In fact, if I am not mistaken, it looks like it will have 8% more theoretical pixel fill-rate than the mighty HD7970.

Yeah, it'll definitely have a higher pixel fill rate (assuming the specs on that slide are correct, which I hold to be the legitimate specs).

The pricing is not the problem. It's price relative to performance. HD7750, 7770 (especially!) and HD7950 didn't move the price/performance curve an ounce. HD7970 gets the pass for being the fastest card at the moment.

7950 undercut the 580 by $50...

No one would be upset if AMD sold HD7950 and HD7970 at 1150-1200 GPU clocks. Where is that 30-50% extra performance that we normally get with Moore's Law? It's there but you are now required to overclock to get it.

No you don't. The "30-50%" extra performance is there. It's 30% faster (1.0/.77 = 29.8% faster at 1920x1200, or 1.0/.72 = 38.9% faster at 2560x1600) than the 6970, and has a die that's roughly 10% smaller. Mind you, drivers have improved since then.

There is nothing wrong with high price if you bring premium performance out of the gate. HD7900 series only has premium performance in the context of a 2-year-old 40nm tech. That doesn't scream premium to a lot of people. Let's see how things shake out with Kepler. Hopefully we get some competition.

High price is due to higher demand than supply can keep up with. When Kepler launches, the prices should drop dramatically - not because Kepler is superior, but because there will be two companies supplying cards instead of one. AMD isn't able to keep up with demand, even though everyone is whining about their pricing. I mean, there's only 4 models of 7970s in stock on newegg, out of 12 (1 deactivated). Why lower prices if they're selling out like that?

 

[maniac5999]

Oh, I understand that. For new consumers, an HD6950 or an HD6970 is a non-starter since they are EOL. Consumers will be better off buying a new HD7850/7870 since HD6950/6970 prices are too high now.

But then if HD7870 is a replacement for mid-range, that's HD6870. How much is that card? $145-160.

If HD7870 is a replacement for the HD6970, it better smash it in performance. Will it? I don't think so since HD7950 is only 20% faster. Not much room. This card makes more sense for HD4870/4890 buyers who held off upgrading all this time or new consumers that don't follow about GPU cycles and want the best card at $299 NOW.

To be fair you should compare prices to the 6870/6850 when they were released--$239/$179, but I concur. I had been waiting for 28nm to upgrade, especially since my 4870 seems to be slowly roasting itself to death, and at $200, I'd totally jump on a 7850 2gb today, but at $250+ I may just hold off to see if Kepler puts downward pressure on prices. With the prices that everyone is expecting, your 4870/4890 owner gets shafted trying to upgrade (and AMD sold a LOT of those cards) The 7770 isn't a big enough upgrade to justify it, and the 7850/7870 are more expensive than what most people paid for their cards 3 years ago.

 

[Homeles]

Just wait until Kepler arrives. Pricing will be a lot more reasonable.

 

[MrK6]

Prices are quite high, but that's expected with the production stunted as it is. Should be an interesting month.

 

[railven]

Didn't you already say in another thread you don't follow GPU cycles?

Actually no, you asked me how the sales were doing - I said I don't follow sales (market share). I corrected you in that other thread, or did you just gloss over my response?

EDIT: Here, in case you forgot:

Why would it? It provides similar performance to HD7950. HD7950s cost $460. You can find GTX580 for $430. 5% performance delta. NV is playing the same game AMD is. If consumers are willing to pay, we will price it as such. I think GTX580 and HD7950 are both overpriced because by now we should have had 30-50% more performance over GTX580 @ $500. How is HD7950 doing on that front? Oh right.

The bold is the only question in that paragraph you asked me, here was my response:

I dunno, I don't follow market trends. I'm just a consumer. I buy what I like at a certain price point and move on. I'm not the ones in forums arguing die sizes and marketshare.

Try not to ignore what I'm saying if you wish to have a conversation with me, I give you the same respect.

In that case, the price/performance curve progress should be more or less irrelevant for you. I 100% understand your view and if you bought an HD7950 or HD7970 right now, I would say congratulations. For those of us who follow GPU cycles and Moore's law and how it impacts the price/performance progression, it's totally different. IF you MUST buy today or have $600 to blow on a new GPU, HD7970 is awesome, especially with overclocking. A lot of others can easily afford to wait until the price/performance curve reverts to historical fundamentals (and hopefully we get some next generation games too), while we smash console ports on our last generation PC hardware. Mass Effect 3 is next.

So you present your arguement on a misinterpretation to that answer I gave to one of your questions? Gotcha.

I'm well aware of Moore's Law. And I haven't said anything to anyone who said something similar to what you just said, ie "I expected more."

And what I'm quoting you saying now I have no issue with. I expected more too - I didn't get it. I also expected my team to win the Super Bowl - they didn't. Oh well.

No one stops you from buying a $500-600 HD7900 series. :thumbsup: But based on you "about to pull the trigger for 2 months", it makes me think you don't think those cards are worth buying yet? What's the hold up since you say you buy when you are ready. Could it be you think Kepler has a strong shot making those prices irrelevant? That's why you are interested to see how it performs, at least? Kepler might be a flop. We don't know. If you must upgrade now, don't wait.

More reading comprehension issues? If you're following my posts so carefully, which clearly you aren't and are only picking things out to satisfy your own position, you'd have read that I agreed to something with my girlfriend and I am keeping my end of the deal. You can easily see when I went from a lurker to a poster, and that was exactly two years ago in April (when I was researching motherboards and having issues.) My window to open based on an agreement I made is open. And I'm going to buy once the card I want is in stock at the vendor I desire (due to having large amounts of gift cards).

I'll also be buying a Kepler (hopefully.) I'm not even sure why you have an issue with my buying situation outside of trying to make snide accussations without merit. Now I wonder if you'll edit these comments out in your classic fashion. We'll see I guess.

 

[tviceman]

6970 level performance with 28nm overclocking capabilities and power draw for $300? You could overclock past 7950 performance for $300. Why would anyone buy a 7950 again if the 7870 was $300?

We have not yet seen any benchmarks by reputable sources, so we really don't know how fast it will be. But why would anyone buy a gtx580 when a gtx570 will overclock and be as fast or faster? Why would anyone buy a gtx570 when a gtx560ti 448 will overclock and be faster? Why would anyone buy a gtx560ti 448 when a gtx560ti will overclock... catch my drift?

 

[LOL_Wut_Axel]

Prices are obviously off, but those specs seem more conservative than the earlier rumors. These will still offer the same, if not a bit higher, performance than the 6950 and 6970. Remember that the 520 SP, 32 TU, 800MHz HD 7750 matches the 800 SP, 40 TU, 850MHz HD 6770. Comparing IPC there's a big upgrade from VLIW4 to GCN.

What AMD is doing is taking the higher IPC and using it to make parts that cost less to manufacture and consume less power but deliver no additional performance in comparison to what was out before. Obviously this is because they have no competition from NVIDIA right now, so expect to see lower prices when Kepler is released. AMD isn't being charitable right now, and that's fine because prices will be lower when NVIDIA releases their competition.