I'm guessing that the poll is probably not accurate - I know that whenever we had to fill something out like this in my school, the majority of people wouldn't take it seriously.
Cheesetogo
How long ago were you in school?
When I attended in the 50s and 60s I cannot imagine anyone intentionally screwing up something like this. There would have been undesirable consequences both at home and at school.
I was able to answer all of the questions, and it has been a long time since HS.
How long ago were you in school?
When I attended in the 50s and 60s I cannot imagine anyone intentionally screwing up something like this. There would have been undesirable consequences both at home and at school.
I was able to answer all of the questions, and it has been a long time since HS.
LunarRay
Diamond Member
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Well... they are sorta tricky questions, arn't they?
I mean you COULD be electing a Senator for less than a six year term.
What happens if the water from the Indian ocean comes over to the East Coast?
The supreme law of the land hmmmm... what ever the current SCOTUS says it is.
Should be the Virginian Bill of Rights, but oh well..
As many justices as Congress permits... FDR wanted what 20? What if one dies? Or Congress don't confirm a few?
Who wrote the Declaration of Independence... that is really easy... A few people.
Two main political parties... Dumb and Dumber... I saw that movie too.
The first President... hmmmm... in Ok they'd say Mickey Mantle probably.
Who is in Charge of the Executive... A no Brainer... Nancy Reagan. Anyone knows that.
I mean you COULD be electing a Senator for less than a six year term.
What happens if the water from the Indian ocean comes over to the East Coast?
The supreme law of the land hmmmm... what ever the current SCOTUS says it is.
Should be the Virginian Bill of Rights, but oh well..
As many justices as Congress permits... FDR wanted what 20? What if one dies? Or Congress don't confirm a few?
Who wrote the Declaration of Independence... that is really easy... A few people.
Two main political parties... Dumb and Dumber... I saw that movie too.
The first President... hmmmm... in Ok they'd say Mickey Mantle probably.
Who is in Charge of the Executive... A no Brainer... Nancy Reagan. Anyone knows that.
LunarRay
Diamond Member
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No, actually Potus' prefer small rivers.
I think I know who the first Scotus is... Michelle something.
Edit: I looked it up.. Obama ... Michelle Obama... she be the first FLOTUS... I get mixed up with the nine dwarfs and the one with all that staff.
amdhunter
"useless facts"?
Having a basic understanding of your government hardly seems useless to me.
"useless facts"?
Having a basic understanding of your government hardly seems useless to me.
Which is absolutely ridiculous. Our President even had the nerve to say high school drop outs failed the system without batting an eye, not even stopping to think maybe the system failed them(us). I'm a high school drop out, I have worked every day since I've dropped out, I've had jobs ranging from 40k a year to 85k a year. I do pretty well for myself, if anything the system failed me, I didn't fail it. I thought the educational system, especially here in Southern California was a joke, when I was in school and I still think it's a joke today.
LunarRay
Diamond Member
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That is what folks said about the PS system in NYC. I think one gets out of something in proportion to what they put into it, generally.
My kids and grandkids (I raised the grandkids too well three of them) went to the local 'public' schools and high schools. They may have had the advantage of our locale going to Torrey Pines high and all that but still they went to college one is enroute to his MD/Ph.D. They did the work... all of it.. they wanted to be into what they wanted and not the consequence of luck... they knew they had to be number one to get their dreams and they did it.. All I ever did was teach them how to think... I never thought for them.
I can't speak for all the schools in So Cal.. but from my experience they are there for those who want what they offer.
LunarRay
Diamond Member
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My knowledge is of no value to you. You must develop that yourself and then you'd be able to evaluate what gives you value. Sort of like a Master work of Art. You'd have to see it to find out if you consider it a work of art or a waste of good paint. What anyone says about it is from their perspective.
BigDH01
By value, do you mean dollars and cents?
Do you mean not looking like an ignorant fool in front of others? (Maybe your boss who is considering who to promote?)
If you have no knowledge of your government, you are unlikely to to participate to your personal or collective advantage.
Ignorance may be bliss, but it is also a box.
By value, do you mean dollars and cents?
Do you mean not looking like an ignorant fool in front of others? (Maybe your boss who is considering who to promote?)
If you have no knowledge of your government, you are unlikely to to participate to your personal or collective advantage.
Ignorance may be bliss, but it is also a box.
Why would my boss consider my knowledge of the first POTUS to be important if I am working at an insurance company, IT firm, medical research firm, etc?
If you read the study I posted earlier, it found that value, or identity, motivations were more positively correlated with voting behavior than intrinsic motivations. Even people who followed politics were less likely to vote unless they felt there was some personal advantage or economic gain in doing so. Most people in the US are simply amotivated because of the nature of voting, the small impact of your single vote in the aggregate.
Listen, I'm going to poison the well here because many posters are simply replying acting as if I'm promoting ignorance or am ignorant myself. I abhor the amount of ignorance displayed at all levels of American society. I personally have only had one year in my entire life where I wasn't taking some collegiate level class since graduating college. I simply love to learn about anything and everything. However, I will admit that much of this knowledge is simply not applicable to my position in the market. It has only provided a personal fulfillment, an intrinsic value. I also understand that many people don't see any personal motivation to learn. It's simply not something they appreciate and provides no value to them in the greater paradigm of the market.
My questions are serious questions. In a market based economy, you can expect people to learn those things which will provide them with some value (and in our economy, value is measured by money). How many people out there get paid because they can name the first POTUS? I was originally stirring the pot because I know that at least some of the posters disgusted by our ignorance closely resemble or are Libertarians or anarcho-Capitalists. If you know that a large proportion of the population is not intrinsically motivated to learn, then why is anyone, especially staunch Capitalists, surprised when people aren't learning skills and knowledge which simply aren't valued by the market. This is the invisible hand of the market doing its job. This is why I have a hard time blaming any individual for being ignorant on "basic facts." I wish they would self-educate as I believe it is important to both our Republic and humanity itself, but I am cognizant of the fact that there is little market motivation for them to do so. Maybe our problem really lies with society and our aggregate distaste for intellectualism.
I can but then he worked downstairs for a company the company I work for has a stake in until elected.
First POTUS John Hanson, legacy's Great Seal and Thanksgiving day.
I agree with Big.
I'm 28, have an MBA, and make $82k+ in the NYC metro area. The below is my story of the aging disillusioned youth of America.
I only read the financial news and whatever appears in OT. So basically the only news I know about is energy policy, defense, financial regulation and some babble about overhaul of the health system. If there is an earthquake in Indonesia or a sniper in D.C., I don't care unless there is a funny joke in it somewhere. The taxes they set at the state and federal level don't impact me in any significant way since the only real assets I own is my new car and some stocks (cap gains tax is what it is, I feel they are more like the cost of doing business).
I've forgotten 99% of the stuff I've learned in history class, I don't know what number the current president is (forty something is the best I can do). I can name the first and 16th president (can also name a few in between but don't know their numbers). I can't name anyone in the elected political chain under the President and his VP and my state Governor. I can't even tell you who the mayor of my town is, nor do I care. I'm not even registered to vote. I believe 99% of them are weasels looking to take the easy way out anyway and don't have the backbone (or "Political Will") to do what it right for the Country. All they care about are Votes and campaign contributions. I am kind of excited about Schiff running in the Rep primary in Conn. though.
I don't feel that knowing these things will enrich my life nor do I feel the need to know these things. I only want to learn/do things for 4 reasons:
1. Will help me make money
2. Is entertaining/will entertain my friends
3. Will enrich my life in a meaningful way (like learning to cook a new dish or travel to a new place)
4. Has a direct impact on my life or my friends.
All other information to me is useless and I do not care to spend my time filling my head of useless outdated (or soon to be outdated) information.
That's all very efficient and productive, surely you are a model of the young, self-absorbed generation Y (or whatever the hell you're called). I don't deny there's a certain pragmatic automation involved in your outlook, probably the result of where you are in life, trying to get established and all that.
Someday you may not be so calculated and material... you may realize that your range of the moment, concrete-bound thoughts are rather superficial. You may actually find yourself doing whimsy things and an inner spirit you never knew you had. You may take an odd pleasure in learning something just for the hell of it... you might actually ponder art and philosophy, and lord knows that has no practical value.
As far as the OP goes, knowing the presidents isn't the goal, it's a by-product of larger understanding and an indicator that a person has some basic knowledge of facts. History isn't memorizing dates, names, and places, it's about deeper understanding of ideas and their impact over a period of time. The dates, names, and places are just the details surrounding the important knowledge.
What I'm saying is knowing basic facts like the presidents names in itself isn't overly helpful or important, it's just trivia. But a person who appreciates and comprehends the big ideas will know such information. A person who knows the trivia may or may not understand the important stuff, but a person who does not know the trivia cannot understand the important stuff.
Critical thinking for the general population is over-rated. The ideal society is one ruled and dominated by intelligentsia elitists, who issue commands to undereducated working masses. This system can be called Communism, oligarch dominated Capitalism; whatever is most palatable to the society. It has worked very well in the past, and can work in the future. One needs only to look at the contagious hysteria and ignorance surrounding an important issue such as reforming America's failing health care systems to see that democracy or representative democracy is not always the answer.
Problems can occur in a representative democracy when politicians with limited critical thinking skills are chosen in elections which resemble popularity or beauty contests. A certain politician from the great white north comes to mind. America seems to be devolving into the mindset of popularity contest style elections and disdain for intellectuals more and more. A shift away from representative government may be the answer.
That's a dangerous attitude. How do you know what's gonna help you earn profit, producing wealth when you are in high school? hey, history isn't gonna earn you wealth? basic math aren't useful, what about science? social study? what exactly is gonna give you wealth at that level?
As a parent and as a society, you just have to set a standard that kids need certain basic education and knowledge so they can develop further once they find their passion in their life later on. If you consider all the basic knowledge too basic to give you wealth/profit, you are not gonna develop something advance that you can really rely on to make a living. Unless you are a society based on show biz and sports and all you need is raw talent.
I think even high schoolers have an implicit understanding of what will and will not earn wealth. Think about what high schoolers see. Most of the people in my high school that earned full rides to college did so athletically. What does generation Y see when they turn on MTV's Cribs? Scientists? Constitutional scholars? When they watch the news? When's the last time you turned on the news and heard of scientists receiving the same signing bonus as professional baseball players? When's the last time you turned on the news and heard a populace enraged about year-end bonuses given to historians (as opposed to investment bankers). Also, and while trying not to be partisan, we spent the last 8 years with a president that had a hard time putting together coherent sentences. In the last election, we had two VP candidates that fall a little short in the intelligence category, or at least sound like it.
Worse yet, because parents of these students likely use or know little to none of this knowledge, what do you think they are promoting? Do you think parents that have little intrinsic motivation to learn are teaching their children the value of knowing political history?
Finally, how is society going to intervene? Society is the one bombarding children with images of rich athletes, bankers, investors, musicians, etc. People will gather by the tens of thousands to watch men drive in circles, but when's the last time a museum got 100k people in an afternoon? Society has decided what's important, and the market is making sure that people know the skills required. If there is no market for certain knowledge, don't be surprised when people don't know it.
What you are talking about is government intervention. Forcing people to learn things that might not ever be applicable to them. It seems to me that you are upset with society at prizing the wrong professions, feel the market isn't correctly measuring supply/demand, or that the labor market is failing by asymmetric information (kids don't know what demand is demanding). Which is it?
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