67 years ago

[NikolaeVarius]

Originally posted by: magomago

Originally posted by: Modelworks
I would have never thought that Japan would do such a thing as the attack on Peal Harbor.
It was such a cowardly way to enter the war.

Thankfully satellites and Radar prevent this sort of underhanded attack from happening now.

How do you 'cowardly' enter war? Sounds like you are romanticizing war. Had it been successful and they defeated us, they would probably be talking about their 'glorious' first strike that destroyed the threatening hand of the enemy; that they went in quickly, strongly, and decisively attacked before the enemy had any idea.

for all the men and women that died that day~

Really, I respect the people who fought that day, but militarily the attack was brilliant.

We don't live in a world where warfare is dictated by two armies standing 20 meters across from each other and firing at each other. That kind of "honorable" fight doesn't exist anymore What is cowardly to one nation is seen as brilliant by other nations. They attacked us on the day where our military could not be easily sortied to defend against the first wave. It was a great move by them. Bad for our soldiers. They hit our pacific infrastructure hard. Thats a great move considering that the only place we would fight is in the pacific. And decimating one of our largest naval bases would shake our military strength. It was a great initiative to war on their part.

 

[GagHalfrunt]

Originally posted by: tenshodo13

Really, I respect the people who fought that day, but militarily the attack was brilliant.

We're getting off topic, but militarily the attack was a MAJOR failure. The attack knocked out a whole bunch of obsolete battleships and not much else. The fuel storage was virtually untouched, the sub fleet wasn't hurt and the carriers were not even scratched. The attack was the equivalent of trying to rob a bank and only succeeding in unchaining the pens from the desks. It didn't accomplish anything of military value.

Even worse, in making it a cowardly sneak attack the Japanese forced the US to crush them. If they had merely declared War and left us alone while they concentrated on the natural resources they needed from southeast Asia we probably would have concentrated solely on Germany. But they left us no choice, national pride would have settled for nothing less than all-out war in the Pacific. Taking out Pearl Harbor was a mistake, one of the worst strategic blunders in modern military history.

 

[TehMac]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: BoomerD

Originally posted by: GodlessAstronomer
lol


Yes, its hysterical. One week for trolling.


esquared
Anandtech Senior Moderator

Thanks for that esquared. :thumbsup:

Honestly, I think a vacation for that was a bit extreme...

He's fucked in the head.

dead vets and especially those that died at the sneak attack.

Maybe idiots and tools like Goddless Astronomer don't realize that Japan intended to dominate Australia and New Zealand, and if it hadn't been for America, in all likeliness, Japan would be the dominant power in the Pacific. Maybe GoddlessAstronomer wouldn't have time to be such a backwards troll if he was getting his ass beat in a prison work camp with nothing but maggot bread to chew.

Originally posted by: tenshodo13

Really, I respect the people who fought that day, but militarily the attack was brilliant.

I think you're confused between execution and strategy.

The execution was masterful, but militarily, the sneak attack was both cowardly and unsuccessful in the long term strategic turn of events.

 

[JasonSix78]

 

[grrl]

Originally posted by: GagHalfrunt

Originally posted by: tenshodo13

Really, I respect the people who fought that day, but militarily the attack was brilliant.

We're getting off topic, but militarily the attack was a MAJOR failure. The attack knocked out a whole bunch of obsolete battleships and not much else. The fuel storage was virtually untouched, the sub fleet wasn't hurt and the carriers were not even scratched. The attack was the equivalent of trying to rob a bank and only succeeding in unchaining the pens from the desks. It didn't accomplish anything of military value.

Even worse, in making it a cowardly sneak attack the Japanese forced the US to crush them. If they had merely declared War and left us alone while they concentrated on the natural resources they needed from southeast Asia we probably would have concentrated solely on Germany. But they left us no choice, national pride would have settled for nothing less than all-out war in the Pacific. Taking out Pearl Harbor was a mistake, one of the worst strategic blunders in modern military history.

I don't understand this love of the word "cowardly." You don't announce your intention to attack unless you think it will undermine the morale of the enemy or get them to surrender. Treacherous may be a better word.

The attack was neither a major failure nor as successful as it could have been. The aircraft carriers, the real targets, were out at sea, and Nagumo failed to send in a third wave. He was nervous about a confrontation and settled for 'good enough.'

As for strategy, yes it was a blunder, but Yamamoto simply attacked Pearl Harbor to buy time. He correctly estimated it would be 6 months before the US could effectively respond, but knew that after that all bets were off. In the meantime he'd solidify the defensive perimeter around Japan, behind which it was hoped they could then bargain from a position of strength.

 

[skyking]

Originally posted by: GagHalfrunt

Originally posted by: Modelworks
I would have never thought that Japan would do such a thing as the attack on Peal Harbor.
It was such a cowardly way to enter the war.

Why are you surprised? It wasn't out of character for the Japanese, they did the same thing to the Russians in 1904 to touch off the Russo-Japanese War.

How about a

for EVERYONE that died in WW2, not just the Pearl Harbor vets. 50 million people died worldwide. It's hard to even fathom that number.

Agreed wtih all that. I see December 7th a little differently, it was the event that got my dad to lie about his age and sign up at 17. Iwo Jima haunted him to his grave.
RIP dad, and all those other people.

 

[destrekor]

Originally posted by: grrl

Originally posted by: GagHalfrunt

Originally posted by: tenshodo13

Really, I respect the people who fought that day, but militarily the attack was brilliant.

We're getting off topic, but militarily the attack was a MAJOR failure. The attack knocked out a whole bunch of obsolete battleships and not much else. The fuel storage was virtually untouched, the sub fleet wasn't hurt and the carriers were not even scratched. The attack was the equivalent of trying to rob a bank and only succeeding in unchaining the pens from the desks. It didn't accomplish anything of military value.

Even worse, in making it a cowardly sneak attack the Japanese forced the US to crush them. If they had merely declared War and left us alone while they concentrated on the natural resources they needed from southeast Asia we probably would have concentrated solely on Germany. But they left us no choice, national pride would have settled for nothing less than all-out war in the Pacific. Taking out Pearl Harbor was a mistake, one of the worst strategic blunders in modern military history.

I don't understand this love of the word "cowardly." You don't announce your intention to attack unless you think it will undermine the morale of the enemy or get them to surrender. Treacherous may be a better word.

The attack was neither a major failure nor as successful as it could have been. The aircraft carriers, the real targets, were out at sea, and Nagumo failed to send in a third wave. He was nervous about a confrontation and settled for 'good enough.'

As for strategy, yes it was a blunder, but Yamamoto simply attacked Pearl Harbor to buy time. He correctly estimated it would be 6 months before the US could effectively respond, but knew that after that all bets were off. In the meantime he'd solidify the defensive perimeter around Japan, behind which it was hoped they could then bargain from a position of strength.

And again, militarily the plan was very sound, but there were a few things that saved us greatly. The main thing, as you said, was that our carriers were out at sea doing training missions. If they had been in port, the war could have went a very different route.
The plan, which was to cripple our pacific fleet, was sound, but they had both miscalculated how much of our important fleet was there, and our ability to bounce back. We were able to repair some of the ships must faster than anticipated.
But as you pointed out, the attack was mainly one to gain time. In no way did Yamamoto actually expected to knock out the US in one blow at Pearl Harbor.

However, even if they hadn't attacked, war was still likely between the US and Japan, but the general public knew nothing of this, and surprisingly to this day that remains true.
The US and Japan were at the time under some very rough discussions and negotiations regarding natural resources. The US placed heavy tariffs and even halted some trades with Japan, mainly due to the problems Japan instigated in Manchuria.
There were a few other issues gaining prominence around that time between Japan and the US.

 

[zinfamous]

 

[zinfamous]

Originally posted by: sjwaste

Originally posted by: jagec

Originally posted by: Farang
I'm going to get some sushi today to mark the event.. imagine 67 years from now if our relationship with some Muslim countries turned out so well.

I like shawarma...

Yeah, pretty crazy how quickly the worst of enemies turn into the best of buddies. Although Germany is a lot more similar in attitude and philosophy than Japan.

I wonder how the people who built the railroad in Burma feel about it...

Americans in general are pretty good folks. We tend to understand that we're not at war with a population, but with their government based on the actions they've chosen.

For all the shit we take from the rest of the world about "Dumb Americans" we sure are a lot better at realizing the above than most of the world. We don't "hate" other countries for generations after the actions of a government that no longer persists by name or ideal in that country, but that probably isn't a claim you can make about most European nations.

The things that this country has done for its wartime enemies following a war are unparalleled. That's why we have good relations with places like Germany and Japan. My grandfather was on the other side (Italy) towards the end of WW2, and he had plenty of bad things to say about Allied troops in general and how they treated the people. He's since passed, but it's my understanding that he was a conscript and taken prisoner pretty quickly. Never had anything but good to say about the American troops he encountered, though.

Anyway, this post is getting off topic, but our military has been world-class well beyond its firepower. It's just a shame there won't be WW2 vets around for much longer, we could learn a lot.

we've also lived an isolated existence as a nation. I think it's great that we can adapt to such changing attitudes, but I wonder what the sentiment of the nation would be had we a Napoleon or Stalin shoved up our asses like the other European countries?

Honestly, it's a bit naive to hold your head up in such a way when there really is no basis for comparison for our wartime friends and foes as compared to European nations that have lived for generations subjugated under rotating tyrannical occupying forces, and many of those for periods of time longer than our nation's existence--before it was even BORN.

Once that happens to the US, and the national sentiment then turns around in open arms to welcome their former dictators, only then might your current lack of perspective hold merit.

Until that happens, you'd be better off keeping your trap shut with such historically asinine cultural analysis.

 

[zinfamous]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: BoomerD

Originally posted by: GodlessAstronomer
lol


Yes, its hysterical. One week for trolling.


esquared
Anandtech Senior Moderator

Thanks for that esquared. :thumbsup:

Honestly, I think a vacation for that was a bit extreme...

not in the slightest. punk fucking kids need to learn some respect.

 

[grrl]

Originally posted by: destrekor

However, even if they hadn't attacked, war was still likely between the US and Japan, but the general public knew nothing of this, and surprisingly to this day that remains true.
The US and Japan were at the time under some very rough discussions and negotiations regarding natural resources. The US placed heavy tariffs and even halted some trades with Japan, mainly due to the problems Japan instigated in Manchuria.
There were a few other issues gaining prominence around that time between Japan and the US.

I'd say war between the US and Japan was inevitable, it was largely a question of when, where and how. Some argue the US pushed Japan to war with sanctions, but even without that - and ignoring was concurrently happeing in Europe - there was growing risk of war between Japan and any of the (European) colonial powers in Asia.

 

[zinfamous]

Originally posted by: thecoolnessrune

Originally posted by: BoomerD

Originally posted by: venkman

Originally posted by: BoomerD

Originally posted by: venkman

Survivor Treated Like A Hero

:thumbsup:

:thumbsup:

Everytime I meet a WWII vet, I shake his hand and thank him.

The further and further we get away from WWII, I'm finding a lot of the lessons are lost or mis-interpreted by people. This thread provided more ammo for that argument. 🙁

Heck, for the newest generation, WWII is nothing more than an overdone video game setting. 🙁

http://www.navycs.com/gallery2/d/4129-2/hax0r3ez.gif

I've seen that before and still get a chuckle out of it 😛

I was surprised to not find anything clearly written on the front page of CNN about pearl harbor. Just more "Stop violence in Africa" stuff 🙁 How disappointing.

Yeah.

We should pretty much start ignoring what's happening in Africa.........

:roll:

 

[TheVrolok]

Originally posted by: venkman

Originally posted by: BoomerD

Originally posted by: venkman

Survivor Treated Like A Hero

:thumbsup:

:thumbsup:

Everytime I meet a WWII vet, I shake his hand and thank him.

The further and further we get away from WWII, I'm finding a lot of the lessons are lost or mis-interpreted by people. This thread provided more ammo for that argument. 🙁

Heck, for the newest generation, WWII is nothing more than an overdone video game setting. 🙁

So true.

 

[KIRBYEE]

.

 

[zinfamous]

Originally posted by: KIRBYEE
My grandfather was fighting Soviet commies. Had he died there, I would not exist. 🙂 He died before I was born tho, never saw him.
That Stalin guy really was a prick. :thumbsdown:

fuck Stalin.

worse than Hitler, hands down.

no discussion.

 

[Vic]

RIP

You are not forgotten.

 

[Journer]

well, pearl harbor was gay, but, i'm diggin tokyo right now 😀

 

[JJChicken]

Originally posted by: GodlessAstronomer
lol


Yes, its hysterical. One week for trolling.


esquared
Anandtech Senior Moderator

woah a bit harsh?

But

for pearl harbor