Info 64MB V-Cache on 5XXX Zen3 Average +15% in Games

[Kedas]

Well we know now how they will bridge the long wait to Zen4 on AM5 Q4 2022.
Production start for V-cache is end this year so too early for Zen4 so this is certainly coming to AM4.
+15% Lisa said is "like an entire architectural generation"

 

[DAPUNISHER]

SMH at the latest spurious talking points being used to bash AMD.

Intel has offered 8/16 or more, from how many gens of desktop CPUs again? Going after the 3D for having 8/16 is one of the most absurd talking points trotted out in years. Before 3D threatened to take the gaming crown from Intel, the mantra has been 8/16 will be the sweet spot for years to come. Extra threads beyond that are wasted for gaming they said. Console effect they said. Its why 8 threads were enough for so long they said.

Now that it is probable that the sub $500 3D will over all beat the best CPUs for gaming, there has been a sudden shift to the MOAR COREZ!!! mantra. Curious that; well not really.

 

[epsilon84]

SMH at the latest spurious talking points being used to bash AMD.

Intel has offered 8/16 or more, from how many gens of desktop CPUs again? Going after the 3D for having 8/16 is one of the most absurd talking points trotted out in years. Before 3D threatened to take the gaming crown from Intel, the mantra has been 8/16 will be the sweet spot for years to come. Extra threads beyond that are wasted for gaming they said. Console effect they said. Its why 8 threads were enough for so long they said.

Now that it is probable that the sub $500 3D will over all beat the best CPUs for gaming, there has been a sudden shift to the MOAR COREZ!!! mantra. Curious that; well not really.

IMO, it's more that the 5800X3D is kinda a one trick pony, and a rather pricey one at that. The fact that AMD didn't release any other SKUs has basically relegated it to being a niche gaming only product...

There is nothing wrong with having 'moar corez' - it won't hurt having them, especially since gamers will generally have a few background apps running as well. Not to mention streamers...

 

[Ranulf]

Its not the years, its the mileage... er I mean cost.

The 8/16 core argument fell apart when AMD jumped the 8core price point 15 months ago from $329 to $450. Same with the 6core going from $200 to $300. That on top of the performance data showing the 6core was just fine for gaming only. Oh wait, the upgrade then for anyone on older 300/400 series boards was to buy a Zen2 (3000) series chip which were still sort of available. It is nice to see AMD end the lie that 300 boards couldn't run Zen3 cpus especially long after the cheap prices of Zen2 have gone away.

 

[lobz]

Its not the years, its the mileage... er I mean cost.

The 8/16 core argument fell apart when AMD jumped the 8core price point 15 months ago from $329 to $450. Same with the 6core going from $200 to $300. That on top of the performance data showing the 6core was just fine for gaming only. Oh wait, the upgrade then for anyone on older 300/400 series boards was to buy a Zen2 (3000) series chip which were still sort of available. It is nice to see AMD end the lie that 300 boards couldn't run Zen3 cpus especially long after the cheap prices of Zen2 have gone away.

Seriously man... thanks for reminding me how much better it is to just get away for the weekend and switch off notifications to this forum.

 

[Saylick]

IMO, it's more that the 5800X3D is kinda a one trick pony, and a rather pricey one at that. The fact that AMD didn't release any other SKUs has basically relegated it to being a niche gaming only product...

There is nothing wrong with having 'moar corez' - it won't hurt having them, especially since gamers will generally have a few background apps running as well. Not to mention streamers...

Ugh, at the risk of sounding like an AMD loyalist, the 5800X3D is a one-trick pony not entirely because of marketing design, but more so because of what V-cache does, and more importantly, what it does not: people on this forum have asked why doesn't AMD just slap V-cache onto their two CCD offerings (i.e. 5900X and 5950X) to make the ultimate CPU that wins at both gaming and multi-threaded apps, but the answer has already been said; V-cache helps in gaming and not much else (at least, according to AMD - we'll see how true this statement is when people get review samples). Therefore, even if AMD put V-cache onto both CCDs, that 2nd stack of V-cache would likely be a waste. There are also diminishing returns on core counts above 8 for gaming, so it makes sense to put V-cache into a product with a single 8-core CCD. Calling the 5800X3D as a "one trick pony" as if it is a bad thing feels disingenuous if it actually accomplishes what it was intended to do, which is to offer >12900K gaming performance at the rough price of a 12700K. Additionally, the total platform cost is likely cheaper too since you don't need a new mobo or DDR5 if you're upgrading from an older Ryzen processor.

Yes, the Intel offerings have better multi-threaded scores than the 5800X3D, but AMD already has SKUs that suit the consumer who needs that kind of capability. If you're looking for a product that wins outright in both gaming and multi-threaded applications, then I will concede that AMD doesn't currently have a product that can do both, but again, AMD isn't marking up the 5800X3D as if it were that product that does both. Technically speaking, Intel offers something that potentially takes the gaming crown and maybe ties the 5950X for the multi-threaded crown in the form of the 12900KS, but it's at a much higher price ($700-800) than both the 5800X3D ($449) and 5950X ($649). So yeah, while $449 is a little pricier than I personally would have liked, especially since the discounted 5800X price means the V-cache premium is a full $100, I wouldn't necessarily say that it is overly pricey for what it is intended to accomplish.

 

[Markfw]

Ugh, at the risk of sounding like an AMD loyalist, the 5800X3D is a one-trick pony not entirely because of marketing design, but more so because of what V-cache does, and more importantly, what it does not: people on this forum have asked why doesn't AMD just slap V-cache onto their two CCD offerings (i.e. 5900X and 5950X) to make the ultimate CPU that wins at both gaming and multi-threaded apps, but the answer has already been said; V-cache helps in gaming and not much else (at least, according to AMD - we'll see how true this statement is when people get review samples). Therefore, even if AMD put V-cache onto both CCDs, that 2nd stack of V-cache would likely be a waste. There are also diminishing returns on core counts above 8 for gaming, so it makes sense to put V-cache into a product with a single 8-core CCD. Calling the 5800X3D as a "one trick pony" as if it is a bad thing feels disingenuous if it actually accomplishes what it was intended to do, which is to offer >12900K gaming performance at the rough price of a 12700K. Additionally, the total platform cost is likely cheaper too since you don't need a new mobo or DDR5 if you're upgrading from an older Ryzen processor.

Yes, the Intel offerings have better multi-threaded scores than the 5800X3D, but AMD already has SKUs that suit the consumer who needs that kind of capability. If you're looking for a product that wins outright in both gaming and multi-threaded applications, then I will concede that AMD doesn't currently have a product that can do both, but again, AMD isn't marking up the 5800X3D as if it were that product that does both. Technically speaking, Intel offers something that potentially takes the gaming crown and maybe ties the 5950X for the multi-threaded crown in the form of the 12900KS, but it's at a much higher price ($700-800) than both the 5800X3D ($449) and 5950X ($649). So yeah, while $449 is a little pricier than I personally would have liked, especially since the discounted 5800X price means the V-cache premium is a full $100, I wouldn't necessarily say that it is overly pricey for what it is intended to accomplish.

I agree with almost all of that.... EXCEPT the 5950x can be had on ebay, bestbuy, newegg, amazon, and many other places for $600 OR LESS right now.

 

[MadRat]

Not many want to blow up $500 playing around with their CPU.

 

[jpiniero]

Its not the years, its the mileage... er I mean cost.

The 8/16 core argument fell apart when AMD jumped the 8core price point 15 months ago from $329 to $450. Same with the 6core going from $200 to $300. That on top of the performance data showing the 6core was just fine for gaming only. Oh wait, the upgrade then for anyone on older 300/400 series boards was to buy a Zen2 (3000) series chip which were still sort of available. It is nice to see AMD end the lie that 300 boards couldn't run Zen3 cpus especially long after the cheap prices of Zen2 have gone away.

The 3600 and 3700X being available to DIY at launch was a mistake I don't expect AMD to make again.

 

[gdansk]

Zen 3D and Alder Lake both seem like good products. But I am much more likely to buy a 5800X3D than a 12700K. I already have AM4 motherboards and the new CPU is already supported with ECC memory I know works. No surprises is a selling point too.

AMD didn't have its best answer out to Alder Lake in time. We get it. But Intel owners with great, premium LGA1200 motherboards wish they had this option.

And I hope AMD realizes upgrades will be a good selling point for AM5 motherboards too.

 

[Ranulf]

Seriously man... thanks for reminding me how much better it is to just get away for the weekend and switch off notifications to this forum.

Hah, you're very much welcome.

 

[jamescox]

Its not the years, its the mileage... er I mean cost.

The 8/16 core argument fell apart when AMD jumped the 8core price point 15 months ago from $329 to $450. Same with the 6core going from $200 to $300. That on top of the performance data showing the 6core was just fine for gaming only. Oh wait, the upgrade then for anyone on older 300/400 series boards was to buy a Zen2 (3000) series chip which were still sort of available. It is nice to see AMD end the lie that 300 boards couldn't run Zen3 cpus especially long after the cheap prices of Zen2 have gone away.

Yeah, who would expect higher prices during a global pandemic? It seems like the food prices where I live went up by a similar amount. I think those are actually good prices considering the supply and demand. The demand for Milan has been massive.

AMD MCM architectures are different economically speaking. Prior to AMD’s brilliant idea to efficiently use advanced nodes via MCMs, Intel’s different products were completely separate die, mostly, and they had plenty of fab capacity. In fact, that was one of they ways they priced gouged. Keeping a big, expensive monolithic die allowed them to limit the desktop market to 4 cores (usually plus a worthless gpu) while charging ridiculous prices for anything beyond 4 cores. We could have had 8 core processors main stream long before we actually got them.

With AMD’s MCM architecture, it is all the same cpu die across the whole product stack. That is a little different from intel where the server parts were usually a completely separate die / design. There obviously was some overlap in HEDT parts.

Unfortunately, Zen 4 (rather, any product using TSMC N5) wasn't going to be out anytime soon. It's not like AMD had Zen 4 ready in warehouses and could send them to retailers on whim. They have to wait until Apple moves off N5 before they could start fabricating N5 in high volume, and as you already know Apple has taken far long to move to smaller nodes because TSMC had trouble with N3. Furthermore, DDR5 wasn't ready and it arguably still isn't.

So what was available to AMD all this time? TSMC N7. That's about it. AMD ordered as much N7 as soon as it was available from TSMC. Unfortunately, the demand for current gen consoles, and pretty much all things semiconductors, shot up last year, which really limited how many N7 products AMD could sell to their core markets. Those wafers intended for console SOCs cannot be re-allocated towards the DIY market because AMD has a contract to uphold. I bet if AMD were given the option to renegotiate those contracts, they would because console revenue isn't a high-margin business. What wafers were left to the core markets (i.e. desktop CPUs, server CPUs, mobile CPUs, desktop GPUs, and mobile GPUs), they allocated towards the highest margin products first then to lower margin products. That means server products come first, then consumer products. They never had to drop the price of desktop Zen 3 because there simply was no need for them to do so. The demand was simply high enough to sell out most, if not all, of their Zen 3 products.

Milan was and is definitely in high demand. We had trouble getting them for a while. The prices don’t seem that bad to me. Prices have gone up significantly for just about everything where I live, so cpu prices staying high isn’t exactly unexpected. In fact, given the supply and demand issues, I am surprised that they are as low as they are. The Milan demand, unfortunately, effects most of AMD’s product stack since it is the same chip. It isn’t like that with Intel since their monolithic die are separate between desktop and server parts. They share fab capacity to some extent, but I don’t know if Intel has been capacity constrained the way AMD is.

I suspect that demand for 5 nm parts might be reduced by cost and availability of DDR5. Although, I have to wonder how much 5 nm capacity will be available going forward with Apple making all of their M1 variants. Those are large chips and represent chips that would have been made by Intel previously.

 

[Ranulf]

Yeah, who would expect higher prices during a global pandemic?

Eh, the higher prices on launch in Nov 2020 were 95% because AMD could get away with it. They were now the top dog performance wise (mostly) and supply was limited because of production (pandemic) and the main factor that most of their chips were going to servers (mo money) and the new consoles. So rip desktop and gpu supply. So they could charge Intel prices and get away with it. Blaming a jump from a $275 market price on a 3700x in July 2020 to $450 5800X on pandemic and say, inflation is just silly. Inflation issues didn't really start till Q1 2021.

 

[jamescox]

Eh, the higher prices on launch in Nov 2020 were 95% because AMD could get away with it. They were now the top dog performance wise (mostly) and supply was limited because of production (pandemic) and the main factor that most of their chips were going to servers (mo money) and the new consoles. So rip desktop and gpu supply. So they could charge Intel prices and get away with it. Blaming a jump from a $275 market price on a 3700x in July 2020 to $450 5800X on pandemic and say, inflation is just silly. Inflation issues didn't really start till Q1 2021.

I wasn’t saying that it is inflation, although it is almost certainly more expensive to make now. The company I work for was having a hard time getting Milan processors for a long time. This is mostly just supply and demand. At least this is a kind of “real” supply and demand issue rather than an artificially constrained monopoly situation. Saying AMD is behaving like intel is ridiculous. Just the existence of this part is “un-intel”. Compared to the almost complete stagnation under the intel monopoly, this is a minor blip. It is basic business that you don’t lower prices when you are selling everything you can make. All things considered, I think cpu prices are still quite good. Gpu prices not so much, but that has the whole crypto mining bs. I am probably not getting any new GPUs for my cluster at work anytime soon.

 

[Saylick]

Milan was and is definitely in high demand. We had trouble getting them for a while. The prices don’t seem that bad to me. Prices have gone up significantly for just about everything where I live, so cpu prices staying high isn’t exactly unexpected. In fact, given the supply and demand issues, I am surprised that they are as low as they are. The Milan demand, unfortunately, effects most of AMD’s product stack since it is the same chip. It isn’t like that with Intel since their monolithic die are separate between desktop and server parts. They share fab capacity to some extent, but I don’t know if Intel has been capacity constrained the way AMD is.

I suspect that demand for 5 nm parts might be reduced by cost and availability of DDR5. Although, I have to wonder how much 5 nm capacity will be available going forward with Apple making all of their M1 variants. Those are large chips and represent chips that would have been made by Intel previously.

Yes, I've read the same regarding Milan demand. The lead time on Milan was on the order of many months I believe, and possibly over a year (sounds like you have anecdotal data on this), and they recently raised the unit price due to TSMC charging more per wafer. Pretty much anyone who is doing a big server build out is going with Milan due to it's outstanding perf/W and massive IO.

Apple not moving off of TSMC's N5 class of nodes (including N4) is definitely not making it easy for AMD to move to N5. Being capacity constrained will limit their potential growth, unfortunately.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

This CPU was designed for a single purpose; to destroy the world of men. *Checks notes* wait, that was the Uruk Hai.

It is designed for the halo effect - "World's fastest gaming CPU". Everything else is ancillary, and largely immaterial IMO. If it accomplishes that goal = mission accomplished.

Under $200 BNIB with warranty makes Intel the only game in town for the moment. Over $200 you cannot buy a bad CPU/APU. All are excellent in any given price range right now. The vast majority of gamers will be GPU limited far, far, more often. Making all the nitpicking, typical but boring. And confusing, since none of us is anything close to an influencer. And if it isn't influencing anyone, that means peak whinging has still not happened.

 

[Thunder 57]

Eh, the higher prices on launch in Nov 2020 were 95% because AMD could get away with it. They were now the top dog performance wise (mostly) and supply was limited because of production (pandemic) and the main factor that most of their chips were going to servers (mo money) and the new consoles. So rip desktop and gpu supply. So they could charge Intel prices and get away with it. Blaming a jump from a $275 market price on a 3700x in July 2020 to $450 5800X on pandemic and say, inflation is just silly. Inflation issues didn't really start till Q1 2021.

Why can't AMD charge "Intel prices" when they have a product worthy of it? I am tired of people thinking AMD has to price lower than Intel even if they beat the crap out of them.

 

[igor_kavinski]

Why can't AMD charge "Intel prices" when they have a product worthy of it?

Coz most of us think of AMD as our friend. Friends don't get greedy

 

[DrMrLordX]

Also the 12900KS will be over 50% more expensive than 5800X3D, which judging by our attitude towards CPU pricing... is a mortal deadly fatal sin. Possibly lethal too.

There probably won't be very many 12900KS CPUs available, either. They're having to bin pretty selectively for that SKU. 5800X3D will basically be a dime a dozen.

Intel has offered 8/16 or more, from how many gens of desktop CPUs again? Going after the 3D for having 8/16 is one of the most absurd talking points trotted out in years.

It's really not about comparing the 5800X3D to anything Intel has produced. It's about comparing it to the 5950X (which, as @Markfw articulated, is rapidly declining in price) as well as its proximity to the Raphael launch (which is still possibly/probably in August).

 

[biostud]

Why can't AMD charge "Intel prices" when they have a product worthy of it? I am tired of people thinking AMD has to price lower than Intel even if they beat the crap out of them.

And also consider the total platform cost if you go DDR5 for Intel.

 

[Ranulf]

Why can't AMD charge "Intel prices" when they have a product worthy of it? I am tired of people thinking AMD has to price lower than Intel even if they beat the crap out of them.

Here is a radical notion, I've thought Intel has been overpriced for years, especially the i5/i7 K models. Even before Ryzen showed up, mostly starting with Skylake. So when AMD shows up as the top dog in perf, but has had some rough edges since Ryzen launch, along with the drama over chip support on 1st gen boards, maybe they want to stil undercut Intel to win more of the market.

Honestly, I'd give AMD a lot less criticism on this stuff if they'd actually released a full selection of processors with Zen3.

 

[Thibsie]

Honestly, I'd give AMD a lot less criticism on this stuff if they'd actually released a full selection of processors with Zen3.

What for ? Zen2 is good enough for that.

 

[coercitiv]

Eh, the higher prices on launch in Nov 2020 were 95% because AMD could get away with it.

That's just false, and the proof came from multiple quarters of Zen3 being barely available in sufficient quantities at those inflated prices. Whether AMD would go this high with pricing given the opportunity is a subject for another day, but Zen3 pricing had 100% to do with projected supply/demand balance. Somebody at AMD managed to set a price that closely undercut the actual demand on the market relative to their supply.

I didn't like the pricing, nobody liked the pricing. But pretending AMD had a choice is false. The same people who point out that "AMD is not your friend" conveniently forget to point out that there is no other option for better pricing when supply is limited. Not even a friend can help you with something they do not possess.

 

[Kedas]

There will be almost a year between the provided gaming performance numbers (still the same) they gave and the launch date.
I think we all feel like this is released later than what they internally planned.
And they first had almost certain more versions in mind than 8 core only.
(based on communication almost a year ago, later saying "it's hard")

I'm wondering if this 1.35V limit (a non issue for servers) is the reason for the later than expected release since they needed to figure out how they would handle that.

Obviously getting closer to Zen4 launch isn't really helping to still put a lot of effort in making more versions, 6 months from now '5800X3D' will be a thing from the past.

Do you think an upper voltage limit will remain on 5nm stacking? (Zen4)

 

[Thibsie]

There will be almost a year between the provided gaming performance numbers (still the same) they gave and the launch date.
I think we all feel like this is released later than what they internally planned.
And they first had almost certain more versions in mind than 8 core only.
(based on communication almost a year ago, later saying "it's hard")

I'm wondering if this 1.35V limit (a non issue for servers) is the reason for the later than expected release since they needed to figure out how they would handle that.

Obviously getting closer to Zen4 launch isn't really helping to still put a lot of effort in making more versions, 6 months from now '5800X3D' will be a thing from the past.

Do you think an upper voltage limit will remain on 5nm stacking? (Zen4)

No, 5800X3D will be an upgrade path for A LOT of AM4 users, probably even 3xx chipsets since AMD decided to move their bottom on this issue.

 

[Panino Manino]

Sad to see that people still don't agree with the only thing I had asked AMD for this generation: higher prices!

Not only prioritizing the server market, they really needed to make as much money as possible while the competition was still weak.