Info 64MB V-Cache on 5XXX Zen3 Average +15% in Games

[Kedas]

Well we know now how they will bridge the long wait to Zen4 on AM5 Q4 2022.
Production start for V-cache is end this year so too early for Zen4 so this is certainly coming to AM4.
+15% Lisa said is "like an entire architectural generation"

 

[Ranulf]

The same people who rag on this product would likely be the same people who'd rag on it if it came out 6 months later with OC support because it was "too little, too late, Zen 4 and Raptorlake are already out".

Absolutely. I'm already saying its too little too late. Much of the updated lineup is. I'd say the 5600 and now cheaper 5600X are probably the best of the bunch. Its only amd mobo prices and cpu availability keeping them afloat vs cheap intel cpus. I'm still debating returning my 5900X and sticking with a 3700x and no upgrades to my other Ryzen systems for another 1-3 years. In theory though win11 isn't dead now for those of us with x370 mobos. The upside of sticking with the 5900X is I'll have no need for a new cpu for 3 years minimum.

I do enjoy seeing the whole ADF line here and a few other places as yet again Bulldozer gets trotted out as some horrible buy, all the time and forever along with being a "space heater lolz". Especially given the heat issues and the no OC claims for the new 5800x3D, along with the heat issues of Intel's last few generations. I will say, it was fun being called an Intel shill 1.5 years ago at the Zen3 release when criticizing prices overall.

 

[DrMrLordX]

AMD increased prices with Zen 3 because the performance commanded it.

Though I was one of the people that predicted (and complained about) price increase for Vermeer, I had to admit that Vermeer sold out across the entire lineup (except sometimes the 5800X) for over six months at those increased price points. Given the scalper behavior, it appears that AMD could have raised prices by even more.

No, the list price for $499 was for a yet to be released Zen processor, it was up for pre-order many people did not know what to expect, many people expected to flop because it was half the price of Intel's 8 Core Extreme CPU, The 1800X was the Unknown back then... the 5800X3D is All but Unknown, it's build on a proven world class performance Zen3, it has all of the Grunt of 8C/16T of those very powerful Zen3 cores in it. being 0.2 less in Mhz against the stock 5800X will not make much of a difference on Workstation apps

I don't see how any of that undercuts what I said.

Besides, 5800X3D won't be great in productivity apps because it's only 8c. AMD isn't releasing 16c Zen3D.

 

[igor_kavinski]

Though I was one of the people that predicted (and complained about) price increase for Vermeer, I had to admit that Vermeer sold out across the entire lineup (except sometimes the 5800X) for over six months at those increased price points.

That's when the old AMD we knew and love died. The new AMD overpromises and underdelivers several months late with caveats. They can do better but they won't. They have gotten complacent. Zen 3 was a huge leap for them and for x86 and they should have continued their winning streak and responded to Alder Lake with a death blow from Zen 4. Sadly, they were too busy trying to build up their V-cache CPU inventory.

EDIT: had some lingering text I forgot to remove

 

[Markfw]

I think we should go silent and start

That's when the old AMD we knew and love died. The new AMD overpromises and underdelivers several months late with caveats. They can do better but they won't. They have gotten complacent. Zen 3 was a huge leap for them and for x86 and they should have continued their winning streak and responded to Alder Lake with a death blow from Zen 4. Sadly, they were too busy trying to build up their V-cache CPU inventory.

You mean Milan-X ? Can you blame them ? by making every server CPU possible (they are all sold, more than they can make), they are getting market share. And in the most lucrative CPU market. DIY is nothing in size and profit compared to the server market. And that's where 5800X3D came from, copying Milan-X. If we want AMD to comtinue to push Intel, and CPU's in general, they have to get market share to push Intel. Hurt them where it counts, in their ledger.

 

[Saylick]

That's when the old AMD we knew and love died. The new AMD overpromises and underdelivers several months late with caveats. They can do better but they won't. They have gotten complacent. Zen 3 was a huge leap for them and for x86 and they should have continued their winning streak and responded to Alder Lake with a death blow from Zen 4. Sadly, they were too busy trying to build up their V-cache CPU inventory.

EDIT: had some lingering text I forgot to remove

Unfortunately, Zen 4 (rather, any product using TSMC N5) wasn't going to be out anytime soon. It's not like AMD had Zen 4 ready in warehouses and could send them to retailers on whim. They have to wait until Apple moves off N5 before they could start fabricating N5 in high volume, and as you already know Apple has taken far long to move to smaller nodes because TSMC had trouble with N3. Furthermore, DDR5 wasn't ready and it arguably still isn't.

So what was available to AMD all this time? TSMC N7. That's about it. AMD ordered as much N7 as soon as it was available from TSMC. Unfortunately, the demand for current gen consoles, and pretty much all things semiconductors, shot up last year, which really limited how many N7 products AMD could sell to their core markets. Those wafers intended for console SOCs cannot be re-allocated towards the DIY market because AMD has a contract to uphold. I bet if AMD were given the option to renegotiate those contracts, they would because console revenue isn't a high-margin business. What wafers were left to the core markets (i.e. desktop CPUs, server CPUs, mobile CPUs, desktop GPUs, and mobile GPUs), they allocated towards the highest margin products first then to lower margin products. That means server products come first, then consumer products. They never had to drop the price of desktop Zen 3 because there simply was no need for them to do so. The demand was simply high enough to sell out most, if not all, of their Zen 3 products.

 

[therealmongo]

The main issue here with regards to the "whining" is that people inadvertedly project the bubble they live in onto an alternate reality that they believe is the real reality, when in essence its just a fabrication of their own thoughts.

So when AMD (or any other company) does something that does not match their distorted reality they cannot handle it and resort to immature actions such as name calling and statements of "what they will do" etc etc

This is a defence mechanism of the psyche to protect their over inflated ego of its self worth, where instead they should be looking to understand the World around them and how they fit into this to understand that such ideas of grandeur are only self serving.

I speak from experience as an adolescent teenager growing up to a young adult and now into the middle ages of my life, experience brings maturity, but unfortunately we dont all reach this level of understanding no matter how old we get....

 

[Insert_Nickname]

This is a defence mechanism of the psyche to protect their over inflated ego of its self worth, where instead they should be looking to understand the World around them and how they fit into this to understand that such ideas of grandeur are only self serving.

Unfortunately there are plenty people out there with egos about the size (and fragility) of Hindenburg*. It's just how the world is, and certainly not limited to forums. Their problem.

*and it apparently it wasn't just the airship that was a more then a bit inflated... 😉

 

[DrMrLordX]

The new AMD overpromises and underdelivers several months late with caveats.

Not true, they're just delivering to the enterprise sector, generally on time with excellent performance. It's the DiY sector getting short shrift.

 

[igor_kavinski]

Not true, they're just delivering to the enterprise sector, generally on time with excellent performance. It's the DiY sector getting short shrift.

The enterprise sector is irrelevant to gamers. They could try at least to maintain some balance rather than prioritize one sector so disproportionally over the other. They seem to be going the exact opposite way of Intel. Intel tests their newest tech on gamers and enthusiasts and the general public before giving it to enterprise and that's the way we are accustomed to and prefer.

 

[DrMrLordX]

The enterprise sector is irrelevant to gamers.

It's relevant to their pocket books. And their shareholders.

 

[coercitiv]

The enterprise sector is irrelevant to gamers.

And real gamers care very little about this weird show I'm seeing in this thread.

They seem to be going the exact opposite way of Intel. Intel tests their newest tech on gamers and enthusiasts and the general public before giving it to enterprise and that's the way we are accustomed to and prefer.

That must be why gamers got to play on desktop computers with Ice Lake and Tiger Lake cores before enterprise got their hands on them. Friendly reminder that it is exactly AMDs modus operandi with server oriented chiplets that got us Zen3 as early as November 5, 2020 while Intel's "consumer facing" approach got us Rocket Lake on March 30, 2021. So 5 months later you got a new arch that brought zero gains for gamers. Be careful what you wish for!

As @therealmongo already warned, the attitude of some posters around here looks as if borrowed from a bunch of impatient youngsters who want their cake and eat it too RIGHT NOW. The Zen3 architecure is almost as old as your official presence on this forum, that alone should be food for thought.

 

[biostud]

That's when the old AMD we knew and love died. The new AMD overpromises and underdelivers several months late with caveats. They can do better but they won't. They have gotten complacent. Zen 3 was a huge leap for them and for x86 and they should have continued their winning streak and responded to Alder Lake with a death blow from Zen 4. Sadly, they were too busy trying to build up their V-cache CPU inventory.

EDIT: had some lingering text I forgot to remove

I really doubt that anyone has tried to build up inventory in these past years in the chip industry, as they have been able to sell everything they put out on the market. And with th Corona pandemic going on I wouldn't really blame any company for having their launches moved by a couple of months.

I'm no expert on chip production and how you assign ressources in the business, but to my understanding there has been a severe bottleneck in chip production, and Apple being TSMCs largest customer by far are paying to get "first picks", and then the rest of the companies can pay to share whatever capacity that is left.

Would I like zen4 to be out sooner than later, sure, has Intel caught up to AMD? yes (although at higher power consumption), but personally I did never expect zen4 before 2H22, and when I upgrade I'm going to get a new CPU and video card, so I don't mind waiting as I'm also waitng for next gen video cards (and for the prices to fall), and also for DDR5 prices to fall. 🙂

 

[moinmoin]

This is a defence mechanism of the psyche to protect

Cognitive dissonance is a strong drug indeed. Once you see it it's hard to watch really. And it's everywhere.

 

[DrMrLordX]

Friendly reminder that it is exactly AMDs modus operandi with server oriented chiplets that got us Zen3 as early as November 5, 2020 while Intel's "consumer facing" approach got us Rocket Lake on March 30, 2021. So 5 months later you got a new arch that brought zero gains for gamers. Be careful what you wish for!

Intel's track record hasn't exactly been stellar. Delivering product more-consistently than them is not necessarily amazing. Zen3 has some legs, and AMD is more than content to do a little long-distance running with them. It's not quite as long-lived as x2 (which lasted until Phenom, from early 2005 to late 2007), but it's still pretty impressive, as least in terms of market longevity. Vermeer still sells in decent quantity, thanks in no small part to some price cuts. Adding all that extra L3 will extend its life a bit. Overclocking be damned of course.

As for people being spoiled . . . maybe. Some people around here have lavished a relatively large amount of money for consumer hardware on AMD only to find their upgrade schedule delayed or . . . diverted (see: Zen3 Threadripper Pro). Fact is that other parties are willing to pay more, and it's something we'll just have to accept if we intend to continue buying their consumer hardware. Or you know, there's always Intel.

 

[igor_kavinski]

Intel sold 30% of CPUs in November due to Alder Lake, eroding AMD market share (guru3d.com)

Hey, I'm just impatient and like to see more competition that fuels faster technological advancement. AMD are the ones who should be really worried coz they are the ones who lost sales to Alder Lake. Lots of these must have been gamers waiting for a long time for an upgrade. Now AMD won't see any money from them for at least 3 years, assuming they regain their lead.

 

[DrMrLordX]

AMD are the ones who should be really worried coz they are the ones who lost sales to Alder Lake.

We are getting a little off-topic here, but . . . why? Would you not have expected them to lose some sales to Alder Lake?

Don't you think AMD expected that as well, given their strategy?

I do not think Zen3D was ever intended to reverse that trend, especially given that they are only releasing a single SKU.

 

[Markfw]

Intel sold 30% of CPUs in November due to Alder Lake, eroding AMD market share (guru3d.com)

Hey, I'm just impatient and like to see more competition that fuels faster technological advancement. AMD are the ones who should be really worried coz they are the ones who lost sales to Alder Lake. Lots of these must have been gamers waiting for a long time for an upgrade. Now AMD won't see any money from them for at least 3 years, assuming they regain their lead.

Since November, I got 3 5950x's, and one Alder lake. Which am I more happy with ? the 3 5950x's outperform the alder lake by 2 to 1. Not a gamer though... But those guys are about to get the new king, the 5800X3D.

 

[igor_kavinski]

But those guys are about to get the new king, the 5800X3D.

We can't say that for sure until the benchmarks come out. I would be impressed if 5800X3D clearly topples the i9-12900KS. Can't wait for the Techpowerup or Techspot reviews.

 

[Hans Gruber]

We can't say that for sure until the benchmarks come out. I would be impressed if 5800X3D clearly topples the i9-12900KS. Can't wait for the Techpowerup or Techspot reviews.

Yes we can. AMD never lies on their CPU specs. It's not worth it but the 5950x around $500 or less would be worth it.

 

[epsilon84]

We can't say that for sure until the benchmarks come out. I would be impressed if 5800X3D clearly topples the i9-12900KS. Can't wait for the Techpowerup or Techspot reviews.

Agreed. Would the 5800X3D provide absolutely higher fps than a 12900KS? Perhaps, but I think it might be closer than what a lot of people think. I certainly don't expect a clean sweep where the 5800X3D wins every single gaming benchmark.

Also the 5800X3D would suffer in any multitasking/streaming scenario compared to any higher core count CPU from either AMD or Intel. So its uses are rather niche. IMO its only really ideal for gamers with high end GPUs who game at 1080P high refresh (240-360Hz) who don't intend to stream.

 

[coercitiv]

Also the 12900KS will be over 50% more expensive than 5800X3D, which judging by our attitude towards CPU pricing... is a mortal deadly fatal sin. Possibly lethal too.

 

[lobz]

The logic of these forums is just awesome:

AMD goes from awesome and accesible to the enthusiast threadrippers to Lenovo locked bs: "but but Threadripper beats the piss out of Xeons"
AMD takes away tuning from a single Ryzen SKU: "but but it is to limit RMA"
AMD does not release 1700x like SKUs in ZEN3 gen and rises ASP across the board for same core counts: "but but AMD can do no wrong"

It's the transformation of AMD from enthusiast friendly underdog is most likely the problem here, but i guess even if it was written on the wall, local ADF members would miss it.

There are a lot of forums where they LOVE your style of senselessly trashing companies out of pure salt. No need for logic either.

 

[lobz]

Absolutely. I'm already saying its too little too late. Much of the updated lineup is. I'd say the 5600 and now cheaper 5600X are probably the best of the bunch. Its only amd mobo prices and cpu availability keeping them afloat vs cheap intel cpus. I'm still debating returning my 5900X and sticking with a 3700x and no upgrades to my other Ryzen systems for another 1-3 years. In theory though win11 isn't dead now for those of us with x370 mobos. The upside of sticking with the 5900X is I'll have no need for a new cpu for 3 years minimum.

I do enjoy seeing the whole ADF line here and a few other places as yet again Bulldozer gets trotted out as some horrible buy, all the time and forever along with being a "space heater lolz". Especially given the heat issues and the no OC claims for the new 5800x3D, along with the heat issues of Intel's last few generations. I will say, it was fun being called an Intel shill 1.5 years ago at the Zen3 release when criticizing prices overall.

For you maybe. There are A LOT of people with 300/400 series motherboards with somewhat cheaper CPUs who are pretty happy to get something meaningfully better (Zen 3) and slot into their system. Which Intel product's offering anything like that again? How late are they? Infinitely?

 

[maddie]

For you maybe. There are A LOT of people with 300/400 series motherboards with somewhat cheaper CPUs who are pretty happy to get something meaningfully better (Zen 3) and slot into their system. Which Intel product's offering anything like that again? How late are they? Infinitely?

So true. Multi-generational CPU only upgrades basically doesn't exist with Intel so many can't even imagine the possibility that such users would be happy.

 

[Shmee]

Well, I am very dissapointed that voltage and core clock control will be blocked for this chip, at least for the time being. So the chip may not scale well with voltage, I don't see that as a legitimate reason to block this control, which is always optional and YMMV anyway, but a good thing to have if you want it. Hopefully, AMD will change their mind in the future, like they did with Vermeer on B350 boards (finally).