Info 64MB V-Cache on 5XXX Zen3 Average +15% in Games

[Kedas]

Well we know now how they will bridge the long wait to Zen4 on AM5 Q4 2022.
Production start for V-cache is end this year so too early for Zen4 so this is certainly coming to AM4.
+15% Lisa said is "like an entire architectural generation"

 

[Ranulf]

Who complains about the cost of CPU's these days? You can get reasonable priced CPU in every segment, but obviously the top processors are never those where you find the most value, and it never has been. The cost of a CPU fit for a gaming rig has if anything decreased over time, as the video cards are what limits your fps in gaming in most cases. For a modern gaming computer the cost of the video card is likely to be far greater than the CPU.

I'll reserve final judgment until reviews are out with retail products, especially user reviews here and other places before I complain too much. That said, you're looking at a price refloat at about 18 months since the 5800X was released at $450, done at a time where there isn't so much of a cpu shortage as late 2020-21, new stuff is due out later this year and you can get the original 5800X for $350 these days. Oh, and there is competition from Intel.

It is a gimmick release most likely, much like Intel has done in the past to retain the gaming preformance crown. All when you are probably better off just getting a cheaper (now anyway) 6 core from AMD for upgrades to AM4 systems or a new Intel i3/i5. That or go big and buy a 12 or 16 core and not worry about perf. in gaming or multi-threaded for the next 2-3 years as we wait for DDR5 and win11 to settle down and be stable.

 

[Markfw]

I'll reserve final judgment until reviews are out with retail products, especially user reviews here and other places before I complain too much. That said, you're looking at a price refloat at about 18 months since the 5800X was released at $450, done at a time where there isn't so much of a cpu shortage as late 2020-21, new stuff is due out later this year and you can get the original 5800X for $350 these days. Oh, and there is competition from Intel.

It is a gimmick release most likely, much like Intel has done in the past to retain the gaming preformance crown. All when you are probably better off just getting a cheaper (now anyway) 6 core from AMD for upgrades to AM4 systems or a new Intel i3/i5. That or go big and buy a 12 or 16 core and not worry about perf. in gaming or multi-threaded for the next 2-3 years as we wait for DDR5 and win11 to settle down and be stable.

OK, I have to reply here. This CPU has one purpose only. To take back the gaming crown from the 12900k. It will do that I bet. Yes, its niche. In all other workloads, the 5950x will dominate. I have a 12700F and so far it wins in nothing, even with AVX-512 enabled. (in distributed computing apps, NO gaming). For gaming, a good cpu, AMD or Intel can be had for less than $450. You want the gaming king ? Its $450, 5800X3d. You want productivity king ? Its AMD at $550 (if you have a microcenter close) or $600 (anywhere else). You want gaming at a decent price ? the 12700F might be it if you can find a decent video card. But AMD has some pretty good gaming CPUs at $300 or under.

So the 2 kings have their price, everything else is a contest.

 

[szrpx]

So now we know what and why:

View attachment 58731
View attachment 58733

Hmm, the 1.35 V limit explains the clock speed differences I think. Zen 3 normally needs 1.4 V or more to hit those single thread clockspeeds.

1.35 should still be enough for multi-core workloads, the difference between the 5800X3D and 5800X in multicore workloads shouldn't be very large, even if the cores have a bit less power to work with because of the V-cache needing some of the power budget.

Well, barring potential thermal concerns, of course. That will have to be investigated at launch.

 

[JoeRambo]

Great move by AMD. Their chips no longer supposedly scale above 1.35V so they take away frequency and voltage controls.

How about me and other undervolting users you useless corporate marketing liers. I run 5950x at 4.4Ghz and ~1.15V and i don't care if your chip disintegrates above 1.35V.

 

[DrMrLordX]

It's 2022, AMD announces the 5800X3D the gaming King processor at $449 and a very good gaming line up(5600 for under $200) that will work on budget AM3 MB during a Pandemic, Chip Shortages, Miners and people still go out of their way to complain about the price?

The 1800x was good at a lot of things, whereas the 5800X3D is an unknown at this point. We can only reasonably surmise that it will be good at gaming but not for combo gaming + streaming (which is normally a strength for AMD; a 5800X3D will require a separate streaming box). It may also be underwhelming as an applications CPU.

If it proves to be a faster gaming CPU than even Raphael under certain circumstances, it'll have some legs.

Great move by AMD. Their chips no longer supposedly scale above 1.35V so they take away frequency and voltage controls.

How about me and other undervolting users you useless corporate marketing liers. I run 5950x at 4.4Ghz and ~1.15V and i don't care if your chip disintegrates above 1.35V.

You can probably set LLC to 0/off and just let it droop. Works great on my 3900X. They may yet allow reduced voltage, nobody knows how it's going to work.

 

[Timorous]

Great move by AMD. Their chips no longer supposedly scale above 1.35V so they take away frequency and voltage controls.

How about me and other undervolting users you useless corporate marketing liers. I run 5950x at 4.4Ghz and ~1.15V and i don't care if your chip disintegrates above 1.35V.

The tweet says nothing about if that includes automated options like PBO and curve optimiser. Rob said nothing about PBO or Curve optimiser either. Just said clock and voltage adjustment will be hard blocked.

 

[JoeRambo]

You can probably set LLC to 0/off and just let it droop. Works great on my 3900X. They may yet allow reduced voltage, nobody knows how it's going to work.

LLC or curve optimizer are not optimal and frequency controls are more important for proper undervolting. I am less worried about voltage, as motherboard VRM can simply ignore what CPU asks and feed whatever is set.

It's the direction of AMD that is disappointing. If Intel's 10nm was still in trouble, we'd have zen4 based FX-57 for $1500 and rest of lineup locked. Exclusive to Lenovo ofc.

 

[Thunder 57]

Great move by AMD. Their chips no longer supposedly scale above 1.35V so they take away frequency and voltage controls.

How about me and other undervolting users you useless corporate marketing liers. I run 5950x at 4.4Ghz and ~1.15V and i don't care if your chip disintegrates above 1.35V.

🙄 What did AMD lie about?

LLC or curve optimizer are not optimal and frequency controls are more important for proper undervolting. I am less worried about voltage, as motherboard VRM can simply ignore what CPU asks and feed whatever is set.

It's the direction of AMD that is disappointing. If Intel's 10nm was still in trouble, we'd have zen4 based FX-57 for $1500 and rest of lineup locked. Exclusive to Lenovo ofc.

You're being overly pissy and it's annoying. Threadripper beats the piss out of Xeons yet it is still priced competitively. That kind of throws away your "$1500 FX-57" pulled out of thin air bull.

 

[moinmoin]

It's the direction of AMD that is disappointing. If Intel's 10nm was still in trouble, we'd have zen4 based FX-57 for $1500 and rest of lineup locked. Exclusive to Lenovo ofc.

AMD appears to have earnest troubles running 5800X3D at above 1.35V and decides to hamfistedly disable OC altogether as a way to prevent possible bad things (like RMAs) happening, and that's the conclusion you take from that?

 

[DrMrLordX]

LLC or curve optimizer are not optimal and frequency controls are more important for proper undervolting.

Well, if all I do is lower LLC on my 3900x, I actually get higher all-core boost limits on my 3900x, which is really quite interesting. And also lower single-core boost limits. So there's a tradeoff. Yes I can also set like 4.2 GHz static and actually set a pretty low voltage were I so inclined to do so, and again, that might be possible with the 5800X3D . . . we haven't seen how it interacts with Ryzen Master or anything like that.

 

[JoeRambo]

AMD appears to have earnest troubles running 5800X3D at above 1.35V and decides to hamfistedly disable OC altogether as a way to prevent possible bad things (like RMAs) happening, and that's the conclusion you take from that?

The logic of these forums is just awesome:

AMD goes from awesome and accesible to the enthusiast threadrippers to Lenovo locked bs: "but but Threadripper beats the piss out of Xeons"
AMD takes away tuning from a single Ryzen SKU: "but but it is to limit RMA"
AMD does not release 1700x like SKUs in ZEN3 gen and rises ASP across the board for same core counts: "but but AMD can do no wrong"

It's the transformation of AMD from enthusiast friendly underdog is most likely the problem here, but i guess even if it was written on the wall, local ADF members would miss it.

 

[Thunder 57]

The logic of these forums is just awesome:

AMD goes from awesome and accesible to the enthusiast threadrippers to Lenovo locked bs: "but but Threadripper beats the piss out of Xeons"
AMD takes away tuning from a single Ryzen SKU: "but but it is to limit RMA"
AMD does not release 1700x like SKUs in ZEN3 gen and rises ASP across the board for same core counts: "but but AMD can do no wrong"

It's the transformation of AMD from enthusiast friendly underdog is most likely the problem here, but i guess even if it was written on the wall, local ADF members would miss it.

That's not what I said genius. You said that if Intel was still stuck AMD would be releasing $1500 options presumable on AM4. I said that was nonsense because AMD is not price gouging with Threadripper where they absolutely destroy Xeons. AMD could easily charge a few thousand more but they have yet to do that.

No one supports Lenovo locking AMD CPU's to their boards so I don't know why you are bringing that up.

AMD increased prices with Zen 3 because the performance commanded it. If you wanted to argue that they didn't release lower end Zen 3 parts that would be different. Plenty of people wished they did but they could only produce so much on 7nm.

No one ever said that AMD can do no wrong, so why put that in quotes? Nice straw man. If you don't like AMD's products or practices, buy Intel and stop bitching. At the very least do it somewhere else because it is annoying and we don't want to see you complain just because. If you had a valid argument that would be different but I have yet to see one.

Apparently you thought AMD was good enough to buy a 5950X. What changed to sour your opinion of them so much?

 

[Asterox]

Facts, and everything else is irrelevant.

- 99% of PC users dont overclock CPU or GPU or RAM
- by defoult R7 5800X3D is faster in gaming vs R9 5950X
- R7 5800X3D it will be the last launched+fastest gaming CPU in AM4 socket

 

[Timorous]

The logic of these forums is just awesome:

AMD goes from awesome and accesible to the enthusiast threadrippers to Lenovo locked bs: "but but Threadripper beats the piss out of Xeons"
AMD takes away tuning from a single Ryzen SKU: "but but it is to limit RMA"
AMD does not release 1700x like SKUs in ZEN3 gen and rises ASP across the board for same core counts: "but but AMD can do no wrong"

It's the transformation of AMD from enthusiast friendly underdog is most likely the problem here, but i guess even if it was written on the wall, local ADF members would miss it.

Rob from AMD made it clear that this is a 1 off due to issues with the tech and lack of scaling beyond 1.35v.

Once the tech improves then overclockable v-cache parts will exist abd non v-cache parts obviously don't have the same issues.

 

[nicalandia]

The 1800x was good at a lot of things, whereas the 5800X3D is an unknown at this point. We can only reasonably surmise that it will be good at gaming but not for combo gaming + streaming (which is normally a strength for AMD; a 5800X3D will require a separate streaming box). It may also be underwhelming as an applications CPU.

No, the list price for $499 was for a yet to be released Zen processor, it was up for pre-order many people did not know what to expect, many people expected to flop because it was half the price of Intel's 8 Core Extreme CPU, The 1800X was the Unknown back then... the 5800X3D is All but Unknown, it's build on a proven world class performance Zen3, it has all of the Grunt of 8C/16T of those very powerful Zen3 cores in it. being 0.2 less in Mhz against the stock 5800X will not make much of a difference on Workstation apps

 

[gdansk]

Saying "ADF" is instigating flamewars.
Really not a good use of time.

Is AMD benefiting from not allowing voltage and clock control? Is it more sales? I don't see the benefit to them unless constrained by physical limitations of stacked cache.

 

[jpiniero]

Is AMD benefiting from not allowing voltage and clock control? Is it more sales? I don't see the benefit to them unless constrained by physical limitations of stacked cache.

Less RMAs.

 

[Markfw]

Saying "ADF" is instigating flamewars.
Really not a good use of time.

Is AMD benefiting from not allowing voltage and clock control? Is it more sales? I don't see the benefit to them unless constrained by physical limitations of stacked cache.

Not only less RMAs, but maybe the extra cache needs 1.35 to be stable, so less won't work, and more would overheat. I really don't have a problem with this.

 

[Saylick]

AMD has said that they've locked down the 5800X3D because V-cache is new to the market and so they don't have enough data to validate whether or not there's heat/electrical issues with V-cache. They could have delayed the launch of V-cache until all of it was sorted out, but instead of doing that they decided it was easier to simply back off the clocks a bit to cover their butt so that they could get the product out to market sooner. They chose to give V-cache to the masses sooner rather than later and something had to give; that something was OC support. That's their argument. Take it or leave it. If you don't believe their reasoning because you believe you are some kind of semiconductor guru and that you know more than AMD about their own products, then that's on you. If you think AMD releasing this product sooner means they are releasing it as a beta product, you are more than welcome to wait for the next generation of V-cache products that have overclocking/undervolting support. There's no "ADF" here. The same people who rag on this product would likely be the same people who'd rag on it if it came out 6 months later with OC support because it was "too little, too late, Zen 4 and Raptorlake are already out".

 

[Thunder 57]

Saying "ADF" is instigating flamewars.
Really not a good use of time.

Is AMD benefiting from not allowing voltage and clock control? Is it more sales? I don't see the benefit to them unless constrained by physical limitations of stacked cache.

Call me a newbie but what is ADF?

 

[Saylick]

Call me a newbie but what is ADF?

AMD Defense Force, if I'm not mistaken.

 

[deasd]

Call me a newbie but what is ADF?

AMD Defense Force, if I'm not mistaken.

Advanced Dimension Facility. AMD decide to change its name to ADF, celebrating the 3DV-cache's born. Yeah!

 

[Thunder 57]

AMD Defense Force, if I'm not mistaken.

Lol that's a good one, thanks. Some people have such a hard time with AMD not wanting to be the bargain brand anymore.

 

[Markfw]

Lol that's a good one, thanks. Some people have such a hard time with AMD not wanting to be the bargain brand anymore.

Since this is an AMD thread, I will comment. ADF used to be the users that defended AMD when bulldozer was popular, and it made sense then to use that term, as AMD was not a good thing to buy then. I was an Intel buyer at that time. Then when Ryzen came up, people used it anytime someone whined about AMD. Now its the above.

Then there are those of us that buy whatever is best at the time. Best bang/buck, best overall or best efficiency. We don't have to resort to name calling, we just ignore who have no clue.

 

[Thunder 57]

Since this is an AMD thread, I will comment. ADF used to be the users that defended AMD when bulldozer was popular, and it made sense then to use that term, as AMD was not a good thing to buy then. I was an Intel buyer at that time. Then when Ryzen came up, people used it anytime someone whined about AMD. Now its the above.

Then there are those of us that buy whatever is best at the time. Best bang/buck, best overall or best efficiency. We don't have to resort to name calling, we just ignore who have no clue.

Thanks for the history lesson. I was using Ivy Bridge back then and generally recommending Intel unless there was some unique case where AMD might work well.