Info 64MB V-Cache on 5XXX Zen3 Average +15% in Games

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Kedas

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Dec 6, 2018
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Well we know now how they will bridge the long wait to Zen4 on AM5 Q4 2022.
Production start for V-cache is end this year so too early for Zen4 so this is certainly coming to AM4.
+15% Lisa said is "like an entire architectural generation"
 
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Insert_Nickname

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May 6, 2012
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I would rather guess for AMD there's a plan B of 5950X3D/5900X3D if Zen4 was f*cked by some other factors and delayed, such as DDR5 price. Everything could be variable.

There'll be a plan B. Probably a Plan C too.

With all the Renoir rumours going around I would imagine AM4 will linger on as the budget platform for a while yet. Why not? Cheap, mature and uses DDR4.
 
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JoeRambo

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Interesting, but understandable decision by AMD, decisions like this are made by bean counters: currently server needs dominate and in the future they don't want awkward problems of initial ZEN4 top SKUs without 3D cache loosing gaming (and other) benchmarks to hypothetical 5900X3D / 5950X3D.
Win/Win in bean counter books. They might have some stupid ace in their sleeves as well, in the form of Threadripper without 3D cache, that also needs corporate protection to not look horrible vs 5950X3D.
 

Timorous

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Oct 27, 2008
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Are you assuming 59(5)0x are less leaky on average or do you have data on this? This of course is also more complex to answer as there are actually 2 CCDs versus one in this comparison.

From the anandtech review.

When we dive into per-core power loading, we get the following:

The big chip’s power distribution seems to go up in that 3-4 core loading before coming back down again. But as we load up the second chiplet moving from 8 to 9 core loading, it is worth noting that the second chipset is reporting lower core power, despite showing the same core frequency. AMD is able to supply the two chiplets different amounts of voltage and power, and we might be seeing this play out in real time.
Perhaps very important is that single core power consumption when we are at 5050 MHz of 20.6 W. Going back to our previous generation data, on Zen 2 we were only seeing a peak of 18.3 W, and a slightly higher voltage reported (1.45 V for Zen 2 vs 1.42 V for Zen 3). This means that from the perspective of our two chips, Zen 3 cores scale better in frequency, and even though the power increases as expected, the voltage simultaneously decreases (Note that there can be some silicon variability to also account for some of this.)

Moving down the stack, the 12-core Ryzen 9 5900X doesn’t show any surprises – we’re seeing the same drop off as we load up the cores, this time as we go beyond eight cores. As this processor uses two chiplets, each with six cores, that second set of six cores seem to be consuming lower power per core as we add in additional load.
Some users might be scratching their heads – why is the second chiplet in both of these chips using less power, and therefore being more efficient? Wouldn’t it be better to use that chiplet as the first chiplet for lower power consumption at low loads? I suspect the answer here is nuanced – this first chipet likely has cores that enable a higher leakage profile, and then could arguably hit the higher frequencies at the expense of the power.

Moving down to a single chiplet but will the full power budget, and there is some power savings by not having the communications of a second chiplet. However, at 8-core load, the 5800X is showing 4450 MHz: the Ryzen 9 processors are showing 4475 MHz and 4500 MHz, indicating that there is still some product differentiation going on with this sort of performance. With this chip we still saw 140 W peak power consumption, however it wasn’t on this benchmark (our peak numbers can come from a number of benchmarks we monitor, not just our power-loading benchmark set).

If this is still the case with the current node maturity it means 1 CCD in the 5950X/5900X is leaky and the other is less so to balance out 1T and nT performance scaling. With a 5800X3D you only need the single leaky CCD and with the lower clock speeds you have more tolerance.

This less leaky CCD required for the R9 products is probably capable of being binned in one of the Milan-X skus and as such putting it in any other product is leaving money on the table for AMD and potentially denying them from taking on OEM contracts that will ensure long term health and ultimately long term competition.

The much later than anticipated launch and the fact there is 1 SKU really strongly points to 5800X3D being the dies that don't pass Milan-X binning process. The other possibility is that a 5900X3D SKU would compete quite well with a 12c Zen 4 SKU when you factor in platform costs and AMD want Ryzen 9 users to jump to Zen 4 rather than Zen 3D.
 
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KompuKare

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Jul 28, 2009
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A pity but French guy was right, AMD is at the mercy of the foundries.

Not denying that, but it is AMD who choose to use so many wafers for low-margin consoles (possibly 70% to 80% of their TSMC allocation). And it is AMD who choose to not have any low(ish) margins CPUs made at GF (and they'd possible still command higher margins than the consoles), etc.

So yes, AMD is not big enough for TSMC to magic up more fabs, but allocation is AMD's choices not fully using GF and exploring Samsung is also their choice.

Pursuing high margins to please stock markets can be very costly. And besides, both Intel and Nvidia have far higher margins but neither has abandoned the low end.

One gets the impression that AMD just doesn't care. They are serving their most-lucrative market. They're more than willing to make sacrifices on desktop. Besides, their competition will feel the bite of restricted wafer access very soon.

Records sales and margins, but they are leaving lots of revenue on the table. No matter how good their current products are, some buyers have a fixed budget and you cannot upsell to them no matter what.
 
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therealmongo

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So, TODAY Zen3d was announced, and not even a definitive date set, just hinted at. So why again, do you say it was put on hold ? And per your previous post, a "non-launch" of a product not announced yet ? It was never announced before. Below is your original post:

Popcorn time

:D :D
 

Hans Gruber

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Dec 23, 2006
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I just want to point out that the 5600x,5800x,5900x and 5950x are all in stock on newegg. I guess that supply issue is still really a problem. If everything were out of stock, the supply side issue would make sense.
 

eek2121

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Aug 2, 2005
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I just want to point out that the 5600x,5800x,5900x and 5950x are all in stock on newegg. I guess that supply issue is still really a problem. If everything were out of stock, the supply side issue would make sense.

Don't use NewEgg. They are a terrible company. Among other things: GamersNexus on Twitter: ".@Newegg screwed us out of $500 in one of the shadiest ways possible and I don't think the company realizes that it rolled a natural 1 and landed on us. This appears to be a convenient scheme to deny RMAs and keep returned products and money. Literal theft. We tried being nice--" / Twitter

(To summarize, Steve @ GamersNexus bought a motherboard and returned it, unopened. They tried to claim there was thermal paste in the socket. The board was UNOPENED.)

I constantly see complaints like this, and I was burned once as well (denied legitimate rebate).
 

Hans Gruber

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Dec 23, 2006
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Can someone explain to me why a
Don't use NewEgg. They are a terrible company. Among other things: GamersNexus on Twitter: ".@Newegg screwed us out of $500 in one of the shadiest ways possible and I don't think the company realizes that it rolled a natural 1 and landed on us. This appears to be a convenient scheme to deny RMAs and keep returned products and money. Literal theft. We tried being nice--" / Twitter

(To summarize, Steve @ GamersNexus bought a motherboard and returned it, unopened. They tried to claim there was thermal paste in the socket. The board was UNOPENED.)

I constantly see complaints like this, and I was burned once as well (denied legitimate rebate).
Amazon has all the Zen 3 CPU's in stock today. I guess the supply shortage continues in the form of myth and legend. As for Steve from gamers nexus. He is going to get sued eventually by Dell or MSI among other companies.
 
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Hitman928

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Apr 15, 2012
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Thinning, then dicing, then stacking may have the problem you describe. But thinning, stacking (including the substrate) and THEN dicing would not. I have no idea if they are thinning wafers or dies, just pointing out that thinning the wafer would probably not involve dicing as the next step.

Stacking before dicing has its own issues though. It is also probably more difficult than dicing first. For starters, I don't know how fragile the bonding is. Dicing is not a gentle process on the silicon and I imagine dicing after stacking introduces some risk in breaking the bond (or at least introducing stress that may cause cracks or other issues) though I have no experience in stacking, just speculating based upon having to do some conductive epoxy stuff in the past. The more difficult thing though would be that, as the way I understand it, AMD is actually stacking 4 pieces, not 2. There are two structural substrates on either side of the V-cache to level out the rest of the chip and provide low thermal resistance. So by stacking first you are wasting ~50% of the V-cache wafer with just blank space and then after dicing, you still have to carve out the sides of just the V-cache to place the substrates. Even if you could do this carving out precisely and without hurting either the V-cache or CCD, it would be a slow and expensive process. Perhaps the structural silicon is just blank space on the V-cache die, but that's not how AMD described it in their presentation and would still waste ~50% of the V-cache wafer on just blank silicon. That's a lot of waste of precious 7 nm silicon.
 
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Hitman928

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Apr 15, 2012
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From the anandtech review.



If this is still the case with the current node maturity it means 1 CCD in the 5950X/5900X is leaky and the other is less so to balance out 1T and nT performance scaling. With a 5800X3D you only need the single leaky CCD and with the lower clock speeds you have more tolerance.

This less leaky CCD required for the R9 products is probably capable of being binned in one of the Milan-X skus and as such putting it in any other product is leaving money on the table for AMD and potentially denying them from taking on OEM contracts that will ensure long term health and ultimately long term competition.

The much later than anticipated launch and the fact there is 1 SKU really strongly points to 5800X3D being the dies that don't pass Milan-X binning process. The other possibility is that a 5900X3D SKU would compete quite well with a 12c Zen 4 SKU when you factor in platform costs and AMD want Ryzen 9 users to jump to Zen 4 rather than Zen 3D.

Both CCDs in a 59(5)0x boost just as high, if not higher, than a 5800x from what I've seen, so it seems both CCDs are probably pretty leaky. Leaky enough to not pass for Milan? I don't know, but it goes all the way back again to AMD would not be surprised by how many leaky dies they were getting from each wafer, they would know exactly how many to expect for a while now. Again, I never argued that the 5800x3d isn't being pressured because AMD wants more dice for Milan, just that they weren't surprised by Milan-X demand or how many leaky dies they'd be getting from each wafer when they first started talking about V-cache products.
 

eek2121

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Aug 2, 2005
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Can someone explain to me why a

Amazon has all the Zen 3 CPU's in stock today. I guess the supply shortage continues in the form of myth and legend. As for Steve from gamers nexus. He is going to get sued eventually by Dell or MSI among other companies.

Anyone can sue anyone; doesn't mean they will be successful. NewEgg clearly messed up. I've not seen a single company that Steve has gone after that would be able to sue him and win in court.
 
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Hans Gruber

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Dec 23, 2006
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My point is that the silicon shortage is not showing up in the retail market for Zen 3 CPU's. The $600 5800x3d leaky CPU's, no thanks on price alone.
 

DrMrLordX

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Apr 27, 2000
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Amazon has all the Zen 3 CPU's in stock today.

And? Most of those are going to be B0-stepping CPUs that were produced months ago. If you see market saturation of B2-stepping Vermeer in the future, then maybe you have a point. AMD is only putting so many of their B2-stepping CCD dice through the necessary bonding, packaging, and testing phases to be sold in Milan-X or Vermeer-X CPUs.
 
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Hitman928

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What is not processed to print transistors is not 7nm, that s just raw waffer surface that cost nothing to process...

Yes, that is my understanding as well which eliminates the possibility of doing wafer to wafer stacking for the V-cache CPUs as others suggested.
 
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For all we know, 5800X3D might cost upwards of $1000 as scalper bots scoop up all available inventory. I find it extremely unlikely that scalper bots are not reprogrammed and all ready to go to make a run on 6500XT and 5800X3D stock as soon as it is available to buy online.
 

Schmide

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As for Steve from gamers nexus. He is going to get sued eventually by Dell or MSI among other companies.

You really don't follow the tech reviewers do you? When nVidia tried to relegate Hardware Unboxed over review policies, Linus, Steve and the Scooby bunch said hold my sandals/hair conditioner, made a few videos and the Green Giant relented.

Suing any of the cartel would be even more extreme causing a PR nightmare.