Info 64MB V-Cache on 5XXX Zen3 Average +15% in Games

[Kedas]

Well we know now how they will bridge the long wait to Zen4 on AM5 Q4 2022.
Production start for V-cache is end this year so too early for Zen4 so this is certainly coming to AM4.
+15% Lisa said is "like an entire architectural generation"

 

[inf64]

The quote I was given by a friend who watched the presentation was:

"We are proud of what V-Cache technology is doing for us, and we are going to feature this in Ryzen 7000 series later this year."
-Saeid Moshkelani

I suppose the quote implies mainstream desktop ryzen.

Well if that's a real quote from the FAD, then it's great news!

 

[Hail The Brain Slug]

Well if that's a real quote from the FAD, then it's great news!

If I had more time I'd scrub through the presentation and confirm the quote and context.

 

[maddie]

Sure, the design is 100% complete, but we cannot deduce the timetable just by looking at that vague slide. I'd be great to see Vcache models this year, but I doubt it.

Zen 3 V-cache was late in the cycle as the tech only just became available recently. With AMD segmenting the server/HPC market into, it seems, 4 main segments (General purpose, Cloud native, Technical & Telco) with unique differentiated designs for each, I expect that V-cache will be offered early in each CPU cycle going forward.

 

[FangBLade]

Zen 3 V-cache was late in the cycle as the tech only just became available recently. With AMD segmenting the server/HPC market into, it seems, 4 main segments (General purpose, Cloud native, Technical & Telco) with unique differentiated designs for each, I expect that V-cache will be offered early in each CPU cycle going forward.

Yes, people often forget that 3d v-cache technology development is finished now and it is possible to offer it as soon as ordinary models. When it will be released depends on competition.

 

[maddie]

Yes, people often forget that 3d v-cache technology development is finished now and it is possible to offer it as soon as ordinary models. When it will be released depends on competition.

My thinking is that it gets released at once. Technical/engineering workloads often get huge increases in speed. Important niche market

 

[wilds]

I was the stacked L3 cache Guinea Pig for my gaming group of friends. They are eagerly awaiting Zen 4/5 with stacked cache now that they have gotten to benchmark my cpu against theirs.

I do think it is a mistake to build a gaming rig without stacked L3 now. My friends are worried that stacked L3 variants of Zen 4 will be staggered so people double dip on Zen 4.

I am content with the performance of this CPU, but will happily upgrade to Zen 4 or 5 with 3D cache if performance is a big upgrade in games I play. Already hitting game engine limitations where I can max AI count and crash game(Fallout 4) so more CPU power might not help.

Best part of the 5800X3D build was how affordable this build was; even new.

 

[BTRY B 529th FA BN]

I stayed on X58 up until the 3800X (X570) came out and this 5800X3D feels like when finding out you could drop a 32nm 6 core Xeon in the board. Love when platforms have longevity... so unless something really compelling comes out this may be my gaming rig for a while.

 

[igor_kavinski]

so unless something really compelling comes out this may be my gaming rig for a while.

That would be the Zen4X3D. I don't think anyone used to the buttery smooth almost-hitch-free framerates of a huge L3 cache CPU would consider ruining their experience with a normal CPU. Most gamers would notice the regression, unless DDR5 latency matches or improves upon the L3 cache latency.

 

[Hail The Brain Slug]

That would be the Zen4X3D. I don't think anyone used to the buttery smooth almost-hitch-free framerates of a huge L3 cache CPU would consider ruining their experience with a normal CPU. Most gamers would notice the regression, unless DDR5 latency matches or improves upon the L3 cache latency.

I don't think the overall latency of DDR5 is meaningfully lower than higher end DDR4, much less somehow approaching the 10-13ns latency of L3.

 

[igor_kavinski]

If Zen 4 launches with V-cache in December or even on Dec 31st, Intel's gonna have a real dilemma on their hands. They don't have an answer to V-cache, do they?

 

[Mopetar]

Makes sense to have something left in the can for when Intel launches their next parts. A 7800X3D is probably a gaming king if can keep the clock speeds high.

The more interesting bit will be in 2023 when Zen 4c is available. Intel's E-cores let them have a fighting chance at MC workloads and they could probably overtake AMD here with a top-end part since they'll have the same number of threads and more physical cores.

 

[gdansk]

If Zen 4 launches with V-cache in December or even on Dec 31st, Intel's gonna have a real dilemma on their hands. They don't have an answer to V-cache, do they?

If AMD launches a stacked cache Zen 4 CPU this year for consumers we can be rather confident it will be the best for gaming.

I would assume those vcache CCD are prioritized for Genoa-X. So availability is another question.

 

[igor_kavinski]

But seriously, what would Intel do? Slap some HBM on a CPU to get back the gaming crown? I don't think Pat wants to let AMD win easily. Other than a desperate KS SKU, what other desperate measure could they take to avoid losing face once again?

 

[moinmoin]

If AMD indeed launches Zen 4 X3D to consumers this year already as was stated at FAD it will be very interesting how it will be positioned along the normal models, especially pricing wise.

 

[igor_kavinski]

especially pricing wise.

Premium, obviously. V-cache supply is limited and the process of incorporating it into the die isn't trivial either. I would say maybe $50 cheaper than the 13900K.

 

[Hail The Brain Slug]

Well if that's a real quote from the FAD, then it's great news!

I found where the quote happens.

3:07:30 is the beginning of the ~1 minute long segment he speaks about vcache and gaming on desktop
3:08:25 is the beginning of the direct quote.

You can access the webcast replay here.

 

[Tarkin77]

Its on Youtube now as well

 

[Saylick]

Its on Youtube now as well

Here's a link to the direct quote: 😉

 

[Hail The Brain Slug]

Its on Youtube now as well

Timestamps are different for this youtube video.
Section is 2:46:40
Direct quote is 2:47:35

Edit: Beaten to it

 

[FangBLade]

Current 3dcache implementation is very good, minimal latency increase with that massive amount of cache, so no surprise that it boost gaming performance so much. Lisa Su also said that currently it is single layer, in future there will be more layers of that cache, can't wait to see next version of it in 7000 series. I hope they improved clock speed, or even added OC capabilities so cpu can perform well in games that loves clock more than cache. If they release 3d versions this year, Intel will be in trouble. Zen 3 showed us that despite 10-15% IPC deficit and 1ghz lower clock, they can equally fight with Intel in games. This time if they improve clock speed performance will be even better, + Zen 4 will be probably better optimised from the ground for 3dcache.

 

[Mopetar]

Seeing what kind of performance you could get out of a 4-stack of v-cache would be interesting. At that point you have almost 300 MB of L3 cache, which for some titles is probably enough for the whole game to fit in the cache.

 

[Saylick]

I am very happy to see that the V-cache variant will come out this year, meaning the difference in launch timing is 3 months at most. This means that consumers can get the version they desire instead of having to wait, which is a win for everyone, including AMD. As much as it would be possible for AMD to stagger the launch of the V-cache variant (i.e. milking), it would do them no good because it only leaves consumers who want the V-cache variant to begin with disappointed, those consumers are likely to simply just wait for V-cache anyways instead of upgrading from Zen 4 vanilla (so no double revenue anyways), and an earlier V-cache launch simply means they start making money off of that SKU earlier. It also means that while Zen 4 vanilla might have a ST deficit against Raptor Lake, the V-cache variant likely gives them the gaming throne, which is arguably the most important reason for wanting high ST performance to begin with, at least from the average consumer's point of view.

 

[igor_kavinski]

If they could design it so that the extra cache can be turned off at will without restarting the PC, it could give gamers the best of both worlds. Game doesn't use extra cache? Turn it off and let the CPU boost higher.

 

[Hail The Brain Slug]

If they could design it so that the extra cache can be turned off at will without restarting the PC, it could give gamers the best of both worlds. Game doesn't use extra cache? Turn it off and let the CPU boost higher.

I am skeptical that is possible in a way that would meaningfully alter the CPU's boost behavior. Sure, maybe you can "disable" it but perhaps power is still fed to it and therefore the voltage limits are still required. Thermals would not benefit from disabling it, either, since it's physically in the way.

I am very interested to see what the voltage curve looks like for vanilla 7000 series boost, if they remain at 1.5V or push the vcore higher (I saw a chart floating around showing TSMC N5 being good for 1.7V?), and what the voltage they will allow for the 3D cache model is. If it's still 1.35V we may see an even bigger boost clock discrepancy between vanilla zen 4 and zen 4 3d.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

If they could design it so that the extra cache can be turned off at will without restarting the PC, it could give gamers the best of both worlds. Game doesn't use extra cache? Turn it off and let the CPU boost higher.

If it could be done with a click in the Radeon software or something, then cool. Having to go in the UEFI every time, would mean most gamers that buy prebuilts would never do it. Heck, I would get tired of that fast too. And it would be annoying when you forget to turn it back on or off.

I don't mind the segmentation. There are millions of gamers that don't do anything more intense on their systems. Ergo, having a gaming centric CPU that doesn't suck down mad electricity for best results, is preferrable to my mind.