60% of the nation arees with Arizona law, only 31% oppose

[PJABBER]

It also makes it a crime for immigrants to NOT CARRY immigration papers with them. So if you have, say, a visa or green card, you can be thrown in jail for up to 6 months for not carrying the paperwork with you.

- wolf

That is actually U.S. law. They included that language to be within the scope of federal law.

 

[blackangst1]

No one has to accept one policy because they accept another. As sentient beings, we can discriminate between good and bad polices; pick and choose.

I don't like "carry papers" laws one bit. It reminds me of, well you know what it reminds me of without me invoking Godwin's Law.

- wolf

So, if someone is a legal alien, you think its overreaching to require they carry their visa/green card/work permit, state ID, or DL? Really? Did you know thats been federal law for a long time now?

And another question. do you obey the laws of other countries when you travel (a big IF you travel) overseas? Or do you piss and moan because its unfair and profiles you? (IF you do travel) Oh, you DO abide by local law? Then why the fuck do you have a problem with requiring others to obey OUR laws? You know, the country (presumably) you are a citizen of?

 

[nick1985]

So, if someone is a legal alien, you think its overreaching to require they carry their visa/green card/work permit, state ID, or DL? Really? Did you know thats been federal law for a long time now?

I dont think he knew it.

 

[nyker96]

Illegals don't have voting rights, and Hispanics as a whole are about 50/50 between the two parties. Karl Rove spent considerable time and effort with Bush courting Hispanics starting back in the 90s in Texas. Karl Rove has said that Hispanics are the key voting block for the Republicans, and can be lured via Catholicism and immigration. This is why Bush was pro-immigration, one of his biggest divides with most of the rest of the Republicans.

and KR is very wise to do this, it's a winning combo election wise. however, I don't think Arizona is considering election effects outside of the state when they passed this.

 

[bob4432]

Are all of those things what they're talking about, though? If it's about checking immigration status when you would've already been stopped by the police then there's little problem from a "probably cause" standpoint.. but it remains curious that a new law would be needed for this in the first place.

If, however, they're talking about stopping people who aren't doing anything illegal to check immigration status, that's totally unconstitutional.

if you read the law, you will see that there needs to be a reason for leo to contact the person, any person. just because you are brown or asian or whatever is not cause, this law would be secondary to some other infraction. if the law would have been written the way many of you for some reason think, it wouldn't have passed - it couldn't have. remember, sheriff joe here has been under fed scrutiny for years but he is still enforcing the law, deporting the illegals and goes on.

the law is less than 20 pages - read it, it is in easy to understand language, not like some law journal like the healthcare bill and then make your decisions. i am sure you will see that most of your questions are covered in the law. also know that it is very close to fed law that is already on the books, so i am not sure why everybody says this will be unconstitutional when the fed law that this mirrors is - you guys are being lied to from whomever you are getting your facts from. again, read the law - come to your own conclusions.

one of the other reasons for the law is that some cities were not allowing their leo to question immigration status even after they had probable cause. on this case, the left media if feeding you people who listen to it a whole bunch of bullshit.

http://www.azleg.gov/DocumentsForBill.asp?Bill_Number=1070&image.x=6&image.y=7

you can even watch videos of it all

 

[bob4432]

In AZ it does. An illegal cant get a DL here. Well, unless its a fake.

i will have to look into it, but i think a decade or so ago they could....will do some searching on this one

 

[Narmer]

So, in other words, you want to legalize what businesses are currently doing illegally?

I'm still waiting for a response to this...

 

[woolfe9999]

So, if someone is a legal alien, you think its overreaching to require they carry their visa/green card/work permit, state ID, or DL? Really? Did you know thats been federal law for a long time now?

And another question. do you obey the laws of other countries when you travel (a big IF you travel) overseas? Or do you piss and moan because its unfair and profiles you? (IF you do travel) Oh, you DO abide by local law? Then why the fuck do you have a problem with requiring others to obey OUR laws? You know, the country (presumably) you are a citizen of?

Wow, that second paragraph in particular is a massive straw man. I say I oppose a particular law, and you go off on a tangent about whether we should expect people to follow our laws and whether we should follow the laws of other countries. Newsflash. I think everyone should have to obey every law that is on the books. I believe in law and order. That, however, doesn't mean I agree with every law on the books. We aren't talking about whether someone should have to follow a law, but whether it is a good law. I oppose marijuna being criminalized too. Doesn't mean I think people should be able to disobey the law without penalty. Rather, I think that particular law should be repealed. Get it?

Anyway, I know this is a longstanding federal law (albeit with a significantly lesser penalty in the federal version than this Arizona version), and I don't like it as a federal law either. I doubly dislike it being now also a state law violation, with 5x the penalty. No, I don't want us throwing people who are here legally in jail because they left their ID card on their kitchen counter before they left for the grocery store. Jailing people for not carrying proper ID reminds me of Nazi Germany. Sorry, I don't like it at all.

- wolf

 

[dainthomas]

So, if someone is a legal alien, you think its overreaching to require they carry their visa/green card/work permit, state ID, or DL? Really? Did you know thats been federal law for a long time now?

What if you're a citizen who looks like they could be from another country? My brother in law is from Mexico, but he's now a US citizen and he doesn't carry any papers around. If he got pulled over for a busted taillight or something, would they get to detain him until they establish his citizenship? How would they even do that? A DL isn't proof of legal residency or citizenship.

 

[Bird222]

Illegal immigration will never stop until the government starts heavily fining companies to the point in which it is no longer profitable to hire illegals.

That's how capitalism works.

This.

 

[nick1985]

What if you're a citizen who looks like they could be from another country? My brother in law is from Mexico, but he's now a US citizen and he doesn't carry any papers around. If he got pulled over for a busted taillight or something, would they get to detain him until they establish his citizenship? How would they even do that? A DL isn't proof of legal residency or citizenship.

You are making yourself look like a fool. Its painfully obvious you didnt read the bill.

 

[shadow9d9]

Last I checked in a Democracy you were elected based on the popular opinion of your policies.

I think you need to go back to high school history class. The ignorance is astounding.

 

[Linflas]

You are making yourself look like a fool. Its painfully obvious you didnt read the bill.

You guys should quit saying this. I still have not seen anything other than the link I provided earlier to the Senate Bill which does not include the language that others have been saying is in it. Given that I have done a bit more research since then and according to news reports the language that Hayabusa Rider provided in a response to me in this thread is actually in the signed bill I no longer have strong objections to it. There could be a lot of folks like me that think they are "reading the bill", the same link I used was in a CNN report on the bill's passage, and have not seen exactly how Arizona will deal with this question.

 

[nick1985]

You guys should quit saying this.

No, we shouldnt. It clearly states what is acceptable ID. The person I quoted is oblivious to this and blinded by rage for something he knows nothing about.

 

[Fern]

What if you're a citizen who looks like they could be from another country? My brother in law is from Mexico, but he's now a US citizen and he doesn't carry any papers around. If he got pulled over for a busted taillight or something, would they get to detain him until they establish his citizenship? How would they even do that? A DL isn't proof of legal residency or citizenship.

Yes, a DL is proof of legal residency or citizenship.

1. If I understand correctly, the AZ law lists it as proof.

2. Sometime ago the federal gov passed the "Real ID Act". This requires states to confirm an applicant's legal status within the USA before issuing a DL.

Fern

 

[Bird222]

It would be the same no matter who was being looked at. If you speed in a van with Sonora plates (very common here in AZ), thats probable cause to investigate. If a noise complaint is called in at a hotel or a house, and upon your arrival find a room filled with 10 people who scared, thats probable cause to investigate. If youre in a group of men standing outside of a national home improvement chain soliciting work, thats probable cause to investigate. If during a drug bust you find 2 pounds of pot or meth, and its packaged in known Mexican gang fashion, thats probable cause to investigate. If youre a vice cop and you bust an asian prostitute who speaks little english, and she tells you about her pimp, thats probable cause to investigate (very common also). If you are on patrol and find a bunch of people gathered or sleeping in an abandoned construction site, thats probable cause to investigate (very common also).

Get it?

What would be probable cause for a police officer if a person is not doing anything out of the ordinary? It seems it would have to be based on the person's outward appearance.

 

[Bird222]

Illegals should not be here, so their portion of the rape/murder statistics should be wiped out completely. Thats not the case, however since we have an inept government incapable of defending our own border.

I guess the Native Americans had an 'inept government' aswell.

 

[EagleKeeper]

What would be probable cause for a police officer if a person is not doing anything out of the ordinary? It seems it would have to be based on the person's outward appearance.

At that point there is no probable cause.

If the LEO did request, then a legal challenge would be entailed.

Which is one reason that the state is providing updated training to ensure that racial profiling for the sake of checking the immigration status is not to happen.

And I would expect that some of the pro-illegal groups will try to setup a sting operation.

 

[EagleKeeper]

I guess the Native Americans had an 'inept government' aswell.

Do you not understand that the native Americans were multiple tribes - some even at war with each other.

There was not a joint common face presented.

Plus the US also used biological warfare against them.

The US government was able to divide and conquer.

 

[Bird222]

We won the lands we got through war fair and square. If the Mexican government ever wants to try to attack our sovereign land, we'll crush them into the stone age. This is not similar at all btw.

Is this what you really think? So since we have a superior military, I guess we should just go around the world conquering countries and taking land and resources. We sure could use that middle east oil right about now. How 'bout we conquer Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Iran?

 

[blackangst1]

Originally Posted by blackangst1
In AZ it does. An illegal cant get a DL here. Well, unless its a fake.

i will have to look into it, but i think a decade or so ago they could....will do some searching on this one

I cant remember if it was this thread or the other one, but I posted the requirements for an AZ licence/ID, and proof of legal immigration or citizenship is REQUIRED. As far as state transfers go, theres a handful of states that dont require proof, and in that case AZ will NOT honor a license from those states. In other words, they would have to apply from scratch.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally Posted by blackangst1
So, if someone is a legal alien, you think its overreaching to require they carry their visa/green card/work permit, state ID, or DL? Really? Did you know thats been federal law for a long time now?

And another question. do you obey the laws of other countries when you travel (a big IF you travel) overseas? Or do you piss and moan because its unfair and profiles you? (IF you do travel) Oh, you DO abide by local law? Then why the fuck do you have a problem with requiring others to obey OUR laws? You know, the country (presumably) you are a citizen of?

Wow, that second paragraph in particular is a massive straw man. I say I oppose a particular law, and you go off on a tangent about whether we should expect people to follow our laws and whether we should follow the laws of other countries. Newsflash. I think everyone should have to obey every law that is on the books. I believe in law and order. That, however, doesn't mean I agree with every law on the books. We aren't talking about whether someone should have to follow a law, but whether it is a good law. I oppose marijuna being criminalized too. Doesn't mean I think people should be able to disobey the law without penalty. Rather, I think that particular law should be repealed. Get it?

Anyway, I know this is a longstanding federal law (albeit with a significantly lesser penalty in the federal version than this Arizona version), and I don't like it as a federal law either. I doubly dislike it being now also a state law violation, with 5x the penalty. No, I don't want us throwing people who are here legally in jail because they left their ID card on their kitchen counter before they left for the grocery store. Jailing people for not carrying proper ID reminds me of Nazi Germany. Sorry, I don't like it at all.

- wolf

Not a strawman at all. In fact, I separated it from the original topic...perhapds you missed the first statement of my 2nd paragraph? Re-read it again.

If I can read through what youre saying...you believe an alien (we're not talking about citizens here, because this law has nothing to do with citizens) is in this country, legally or illegally, you feel its too much to ask for them to carry proof of their legal status? So you disagree with the federal law also? Or is it the punishment you have a problem with?

 

[xj0hnx]

I think you need to go back to high school history class. The ignorance is astounding.

Why? Did people in the past vote for policy they didn't like? Weird.

 

[blackangst1]

What if you're a citizen who looks like they could be from another country? My brother in law is from Mexico, but he's now a US citizen and he doesn't carry any papers around. If he got pulled over for a busted taillight or something, would they get to detain him until they establish his citizenship? How would they even do that? A DL isn't proof of legal residency or citizenship.

Perhaps you are naive with regards to law enforcement. Are you aware of how easy it is for LEO to check if someone is a citizen?

Protip: it can be done any hour of the day, any day of the week (holidays too!) in about 5 mins, from their car. So in your strawman argument, your brother would probably get a warning and be sent home.

And in AZ, a DL *is* proof.

 

[blackangst1]

What would be probable cause for a police officer if a person is not doing anything out of the ordinary? It seems it would have to be based on the person's outward appearance.

Maybe it seems that way to you, but for LE? No. Unless, of course, you were prowling around someone's yard....or hanging around an abandoned building...etc. Theres exceptions to everything. But even whitey would be questioned in that case.