60 minutes interview with soldiers on trial

[Chunkee]

It must be nice to sit in a comfy chair, and question intent of a situation where you were not present. It sickens me to watch the smug asswipe face of the "journalist" pass his judgment on this young soldier in a situation he knows nothing about. I cannot for the life of me understand. Not only is he being judged by the momo CBS, but the comments made of the commander in chief, in knee jerk reactionary rhetoric to inflammatory journalism...as well as the congressman that hyped up the situation. All from their comfortable chairs, on their big screen tvs, ...training the young men to do a job, placing him constantly in harms way and then judging him harshly as he does his job, to the best of his ability. Now, some of you bleed hearts will cry out...my response to that...STFU, place an M16 in your arms, and put you on a street full of people that fucking hate your guts, and your buddies were just attacked and blown to a pile of fucking goo....when you have done that...and have been there in those shoes...then you can proffer some inquisition as to the nature and proper reaction to the situation.

I am so sick and tired of this kind of crap...BRING THEM THE FUCK HOME THEN, if you do not like the way things are being handled....I am most certain, the Iraqis would like it as well..


jC

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: Chunkee
It must be nice to sit in a comfy chair, and question intent of a situation where you were not present. It sickens me to watch the smug asswipe face of the "journalist" pass his judgment on this young soldier in a situation he knows nothing about. I cannot for the life of me understand. Not only is he being judged by the momo CBS, but the comments made of the commander in chief, in knee jerk reactionary rhetoric to inflammatory journalism...as well as the congressman that hyped up the situation. All from their comfortable chairs, on their big screen tvs, ...training the young men to do a job, placing him constantly in harms way and then judging him harshly as he does his job, to the best of his ability. Now, some of you bleed hearts will cry out...my response to that...STFU, place an M16 in your arms, and put you on a street full of people that fucking hate your guts, and your buddies were just attacked and blown to a pile of fucking goo....when you have done that...and have been there in those shoes...then you can proffer some inquisition as to the nature and proper reaction to the situation.

I am so sick and tired of this kind of crap...BRING THEM THE FUCK HOME THEN, if you do not like the way things are being handled....I am most certain, the Iraqis would like it as well..


jC

Not having been there in no way invalidates people judging the military on its conduct. Civilians control our military, as it should be. They will be the judges of if the military is doing what we want it to do, and if people aren't they are punished accordingly.

 

[Chunkee]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: Chunkee
It must be nice to sit in a comfy chair, and question intent of a situation where you were not present. It sickens me to watch the smug asswipe face of the "journalist" pass his judgment on this young soldier in a situation he knows nothing about. I cannot for the life of me understand. Not only is he being judged by the momo CBS, but the comments made of the commander in chief, in knee jerk reactionary rhetoric to inflammatory journalism...as well as the congressman that hyped up the situation. All from their comfortable chairs, on their big screen tvs, ...training the young men to do a job, placing him constantly in harms way and then judging him harshly as he does his job, to the best of his ability. Now, some of you bleed hearts will cry out...my response to that...STFU, place an M16 in your arms, and put you on a street full of people that fucking hate your guts, and your buddies were just attacked and blown to a pile of fucking goo....when you have done that...and have been there in those shoes...then you can proffer some inquisition as to the nature and proper reaction to the situation.

I am so sick and tired of this kind of crap...BRING THEM THE FUCK HOME THEN, if you do not like the way things are being handled....I am most certain, the Iraqis would like it as well..


jC

Not having been there in no way invalidates people judging the military on its conduct. Civilians control our military, as it should be. They will be the judges of if the military is doing what we want it to do, and if people aren't they are punished accordingly.

Bleed heart #1

 

[Buck Armstrong]

Originally posted by: Chunkee

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: Chunkee
It must be nice to sit in a comfy chair, and question intent of a situation where you were not present. It sickens me to watch the smug asswipe face of the "journalist" pass his judgment on this young soldier in a situation he knows nothing about. I cannot for the life of me understand. Not only is he being judged by the momo CBS, but the comments made of the commander in chief, in knee jerk reactionary rhetoric to inflammatory journalism...as well as the congressman that hyped up the situation. All from their comfortable chairs, on their big screen tvs, ...training the young men to do a job, placing him constantly in harms way and then judging him harshly as he does his job, to the best of his ability. Now, some of you bleed hearts will cry out...my response to that...STFU, place an M16 in your arms, and put you on a street full of people that fucking hate your guts, and your buddies were just attacked and blown to a pile of fucking goo....when you have done that...and have been there in those shoes...then you can proffer some inquisition as to the nature and proper reaction to the situation.

I am so sick and tired of this kind of crap...BRING THEM THE FUCK HOME THEN, if you do not like the way things are being handled....I am most certain, the Iraqis would like it as well..


jC

Not having been there in no way invalidates people judging the military on its conduct. Civilians control our military, as it should be. They will be the judges of if the military is doing what we want it to do, and if people aren't they are punished accordingly.

Bleed heart #1

Eskimo was in the military, which means he can say whatever he wants, whether its critical of the military, the president, or your grandma.

You do have a point in there somewhere: if you don't like the job they've been assigned, then apply political pressure and bring them home. Don't punish them for it. Of course I don't know what this guy is on trial for, so I can't really speak on that one way or the other.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: Chunkee

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: Chunkee
It must be nice to sit in a comfy chair, and question intent of a situation where you were not present. It sickens me to watch the smug asswipe face of the "journalist" pass his judgment on this young soldier in a situation he knows nothing about. I cannot for the life of me understand. Not only is he being judged by the momo CBS, but the comments made of the commander in chief, in knee jerk reactionary rhetoric to inflammatory journalism...as well as the congressman that hyped up the situation. All from their comfortable chairs, on their big screen tvs, ...training the young men to do a job, placing him constantly in harms way and then judging him harshly as he does his job, to the best of his ability. Now, some of you bleed hearts will cry out...my response to that...STFU, place an M16 in your arms, and put you on a street full of people that fucking hate your guts, and your buddies were just attacked and blown to a pile of fucking goo....when you have done that...and have been there in those shoes...then you can proffer some inquisition as to the nature and proper reaction to the situation.

I am so sick and tired of this kind of crap...BRING THEM THE FUCK HOME THEN, if you do not like the way things are being handled....I am most certain, the Iraqis would like it as well..


jC

Not having been there in no way invalidates people judging the military on its conduct. Civilians control our military, as it should be. They will be the judges of if the military is doing what we want it to do, and if people aren't they are punished accordingly.

Bleed heart #1

Yeah it's a crappy situation for those people over there. You have two options though, you can either let them off no matter what awful stuff they do, or you can exert civilian control over the military to keep things in check. #1 isn't really an option. If you can think of a third option that respects people's experiences in war but simultaneously doesn't authorize mass criminality I'd love to hear it.

 

[Perknose]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: Chunkee
It must be nice to sit in a comfy chair, and question intent of a situation where you were not present. It sickens me to watch the smug asswipe face of the "journalist" pass his judgment on this young soldier in a situation he knows nothing about. I cannot for the life of me understand. Not only is he being judged by the momo CBS, but the comments made of the commander in chief, in knee jerk reactionary rhetoric to inflammatory journalism...as well as the congressman that hyped up the situation. All from their comfortable chairs, on their big screen tvs, ...training the young men to do a job, placing him constantly in harms way and then judging him harshly as he does his job, to the best of his ability. Now, some of you bleed hearts will cry out...my response to that...STFU, place an M16 in your arms, and put you on a street full of people that fucking hate your guts, and your buddies were just attacked and blown to a pile of fucking goo....when you have done that...and have been there in those shoes...then you can proffer some inquisition as to the nature and proper reaction to the situation.

I am so sick and tired of this kind of crap...BRING THEM THE FUCK HOME THEN, if you do not like the way things are being handled....I am most certain, the Iraqis would like it as well..


jC

Not having been there in no way invalidates people judging the military on its conduct. Civilians control our military, as it should be. They will be the judges of if the military is doing what we want it to do, and if people aren't they are punished accordingly.

While oversight and accountability are always needed, too often it is the young, scared grunt reacting in a hair-trigger situation who has to "die for our sins", while the suits and medal brigade pontificate in the aftermath.

We train these kids to kill, plop them down in the midst of a hostile and foreign culture, and expect nothing to go wrong.

 

[Tab]

Why does it matter if I was here or there? Are all civilians all stupid and not have brains?

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: Perknose

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: Chunkee
It must be nice to sit in a comfy chair, and question intent of a situation where you were not present. It sickens me to watch the smug asswipe face of the "journalist" pass his judgment on this young soldier in a situation he knows nothing about. I cannot for the life of me understand. Not only is he being judged by the momo CBS, but the comments made of the commander in chief, in knee jerk reactionary rhetoric to inflammatory journalism...as well as the congressman that hyped up the situation. All from their comfortable chairs, on their big screen tvs, ...training the young men to do a job, placing him constantly in harms way and then judging him harshly as he does his job, to the best of his ability. Now, some of you bleed hearts will cry out...my response to that...STFU, place an M16 in your arms, and put you on a street full of people that fucking hate your guts, and your buddies were just attacked and blown to a pile of fucking goo....when you have done that...and have been there in those shoes...then you can proffer some inquisition as to the nature and proper reaction to the situation.

I am so sick and tired of this kind of crap...BRING THEM THE FUCK HOME THEN, if you do not like the way things are being handled....I am most certain, the Iraqis would like it as well..


jC

Not having been there in no way invalidates people judging the military on its conduct. Civilians control our military, as it should be. They will be the judges of if the military is doing what we want it to do, and if people aren't they are punished accordingly.

While oversight and accountability are always needed, too often it is the young, scared grunt reacting in a hair-trigger situation who has to "die for our sins", while the suits and medal brigade pontificate in the aftermath.

We train these kids to kill, plop them down in the midst of a hostile and foreign culture, and expect nothing to go wrong.

I completely agree that the grunt on the ground pays the price for poor policies. If you take a look at the rules of engagement and the general orders given to people there's always room for your command to screw you either way if the outcome is bad. You know who's fault that is though? The military's fault not some congressman or journalist. It's commanding officers covering their ass within the military bureaucracy.

I feel bad for those guys, I really do. There's just no way you can excuse murder because people were in a tough situation. If we do that, it's the door to anarchy.

 

[Buck Armstrong]

Has anyone been watching Generation Kill on HBO? Whether its accurate or not, they've taken great pains to show that:

1. While there are some sick fucks that just like shooting people and dogs, most of the enlisted kids and younger platoon commanders did an admirable job, and actually cared about how the Iraqis were treated.

2. The company commanders and above are just incompetent jackasses who are completely out of touch with their men and dangerous to have in the field. The ROE is constantly changing and when there's a fuck-up because of it, they immediately sacrifice the enlisted guy and move on with their career.

 

[piasabird]

Let soldiers be judged by a military courts martial, not the press and not congress. They have no authority.

I believe in giving military personnel the benefit of the doubt and would move for leniency in all these cases. Soldiers are trained to kill. They are in a war and forced to act as civilian police. Lots of people crack under this kind of pressure. Give our soldiers a break.

 

[Taejin]

Chunkee isn't spamming knee-jerk reactionary BLEEDING HEART!!! anymore. What's wrong? reasoning and logic obliterate his approach to his own thread?

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: piasabird
Let soldiers be judged by a military courts martial, not the press and not congress. They have no authority.

I believe in giving military personnel the benefit of the doubt and would move for leniency in all these cases. Soldiers are trained to kill. They are in a war and forced to act as civilian police. Lots of people crack under this kind of pressure. Give our soldiers a break.

Yeah, that's not how the government in a democracy is supposed to work. Waving your military ID isn't a get out of jail free card, and it shouldn't be if we want to preserve a free society. If you fuck up while wearing a uniform, you still fucked up, and you should be called on it.

 

[cwjerome]

Originally posted by: Buck Armstrong
Has anyone been watching Generation Kill on HBO? Whether its accurate or not, they've taken great pains to show that:

1. While there are some sick fucks that just like shooting people and dogs, most of the enlisted kids and younger platoon commanders did an admirable job, and actually cared about how the Iraqis were treated.

2. The company commanders and above are just incompetent jackasses who are completely out of touch with their men and dangerous to have in the field. The ROE is constantly changing and when there's a fuck-up because of it, they immediately sacrifice the enlisted guy and move on with their career.

I haven't seen Generation Kill yet, but I can assure you the old "bad officer" angle is just a comfortable, easy stereotype that fits well particularly with storytelling. Most F-ups involving enlisted is due to the "system," not a bunch of useless officers.

In fact, the most talented, hi-speed, and honorable people I have known have been INFANTRY platoon leaders and company commanders... most take great pride and ownership of their subordinates and make taking care of Soldiers their #1 priority.

 

[Deudalus]

Originally posted by: Buck Armstrong

Eskimo was in the military, which means he can say whatever he wants, whether its critical of the military, the president, or your grandma.

Actually Mr. Fascist he has the right to say whatever he wants due to Freedom of Speech.

It has nothing to do with him being in the military.

 

[smashp]

Originally posted by: Buck Armstrong
Has anyone been watching Generation Kill on HBO? Whether its accurate or not, they've taken great pains to show that:

1. While there are some sick fucks that just like shooting people and dogs, most of the enlisted kids and younger platoon commanders did an admirable job, and actually cared about how the Iraqis were treated.

2. The company commanders and above are just incompetent jackasses who are completely out of touch with their men and dangerous to have in the field. The ROE is constantly changing and when there's a fuck-up because of it, they immediately sacrifice the enlisted guy and move on with their career.

If you think the TV series was great, read the Book

 

[PrinceofWands]

The problem isn't citizens judging the military, the problem is the military going where citizens have ordered when it wasn't necessary. The military must act correctly, or rather, the members of the military must act correctly. If they do not, they should be punished severely. To avoid this we should not send the military where these wrong actions could occur unless it is ABSOLUTELY necessary. When it is necessary, then every official responsible for creating a bad situation should be held equally responsible for everything that happens.

It's wrong to punish the soldier alone for doing what any human in his situation might do. Yes, you must punish him, but you must also punish those who put him there, and you must change the policy so that no others are sent there when they don't need to be.

I say that having been in the military myself. This isn't the policy of a bleeding heart, but a rational patriot.

***note, I don't know what this particular case is about, I was speaking purely in general theory***

 

[Budmantom]

60 minutes always does these type of stories, John Murtha must help them write these stories.

 

[Brovane]

There is a reason that regular Soldiers make poor police officers. Soldiers are trained to kill and defeat the enemy. You stick a 19-20yr old kid in a hostile fluid situation surrounded by a enemy mixed in with non-combatants and you are bound to have some innocent people getting killed. If you have a sick f@%k soldier that kills and rapes a innocent family then go ahead and throw the book at them. However in a combat situation you have to give the benefit of the doubt to the soldier on the ground. Trying to second guess someones actions in a combat situation is not good. These soldiers are not police officers.

 

[Skitzer]

Originally posted by: Perknose

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: Chunkee
It must be nice to sit in a comfy chair, and question intent of a situation where you were not present. It sickens me to watch the smug asswipe face of the "journalist" pass his judgment on this young soldier in a situation he knows nothing about. I cannot for the life of me understand. Not only is he being judged by the momo CBS, but the comments made of the commander in chief, in knee jerk reactionary rhetoric to inflammatory journalism...as well as the congressman that hyped up the situation. All from their comfortable chairs, on their big screen tvs, ...training the young men to do a job, placing him constantly in harms way and then judging him harshly as he does his job, to the best of his ability. Now, some of you bleed hearts will cry out...my response to that...STFU, place an M16 in your arms, and put you on a street full of people that fucking hate your guts, and your buddies were just attacked and blown to a pile of fucking goo....when you have done that...and have been there in those shoes...then you can proffer some inquisition as to the nature and proper reaction to the situation.

I am so sick and tired of this kind of crap...BRING THEM THE FUCK HOME THEN, if you do not like the way things are being handled....I am most certain, the Iraqis would like it as well..


jC

Not having been there in no way invalidates people judging the military on its conduct. Civilians control our military, as it should be. They will be the judges of if the military is doing what we want it to do, and if people aren't they are punished accordingly.

While oversight and accountability are always needed, too often it is the young, scared grunt reacting in a hair-trigger situation who has to "die for our sins", while the suits and medal brigade pontificate in the aftermath.

We train these kids to kill, plop them down in the midst of a hostile and foreign culture, and expect nothing to go wrong.

QFT! :thumbsup: