• We’re currently investigating an issue related to the forum theme and styling that is impacting page layout and visual formatting. The problem has been identified, and we are actively working on a resolution. There is no impact to user data or functionality, this is strictly a front-end display issue. We’ll post an update once the fix has been deployed. Thanks for your patience while we get this sorted.

60 Minutes airs interview with Curveball - WMD basis exposed further

This is an 'old' issue, but we have many here who have not learned a lesson.

This is new information insofar as the interview with Curveball.

Here's the video to watch:

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7359532n

I remember, on another political message board but every board I saw was the same thing:

Liberals raising doubts about WMD, demanding the inspectors be allowed to finish, while right-wingers backed war, and said they had few or no doubts about WMD.

Righties said a lot of things about how they would never trust Bush again if it turned out he was wrong - statements mostly forgotten when he was.

It was one of those 'big tests' of who was right, like the Clinton tax increases for which EVERY right-wing leader predicted economic doom if passed; they were wrong again.

We know the basics, that Powell said there was 'solid' intelligence analysis proving the weapons, etc.

We know the spin, 'if we were fooled, so was every intelligence agency in the world with us'.

But the basic facts are appalling and the spin doesn't work.

The US had - and it lied about this - an agenda for war, while saying it wanted to avoid war and it was a 'last resort'.

And so it did not act honestly and lied to the American people.

It's not the first time this has happened. Pretty much every war, had lies, really. But should we accept any of them?

Administrations might sometimes think they're doing 'the best thing for the country' by misleading the public on war. Even if they don't - like LBJ having doubts about Vietnam as he 'gave' the war to the Republicans to get their support for his domestic programs - clearly they don't think it's a good idea to say anything negative about the war publicly. 'I'm taking us to war, but I have big misgivings' doesn't work well.

But this was a whopper for our history, really, a basic recklessness in a desire to use a pretense about the whole justification for the war.

Practically the entire justification for the war was based on this one Iraqi refugee's now-admitted lies - that were told under extreme duress (not torture, but in German custody competing with many other Iraqi refugees for the right to stay when only 1 in 25 were given a spot and offering these lies could get him a spot), the US *never talked to him* and not even know his name, were warned by German intelligence he was not reliable, yet for the desire to have war justification, accepted his lies.

Where is the accountability for this intentional deception - they may not have known for a FACT these were lies, but they knew they had been able to find no other evidence after much searching, and intentionally were deceptive about the nature of the information such as how reliable it was and how they had 'stove-piped' it.

There has been no accountability, really, and that's a crime.

The American people are condoning with inaction the leaders lying to them. There's blame for the Democrats in doing this - but blame for the American people in that being in the political interest of the Democrats to do so, because the public would fall for the Republicans exploiting any investigation.

The 60 Minutes piece is very informative, but it downplayed some of the facts mentioned above, unfortunately, an issue I mailed them about.

Now, the issue is spin - do the perpetrators get away with 'hey, it was an honest mistake, let's forget it'?

You can *support the war* and still oppose the deception of the public by leaders.
 
Last edited:
Your summary is fair and historically accurate. Unfortunately, we've found that America is not as different as we'd hoped. Its people are ok with being lied to, as many people have been throughout times in many other countries. When faced with the proposition that they were lied to by their government and led into a war that cost tens of thousands of lives (needlessly) OR the proposition that their government is still morally sound but just made a few mistakes and anyway the end result (no more Saddam) was worth the cost, they tend toward the second.

This isn't a psychological novelty at all. The power of denial is very strong and is the reason why, eight years later, literally millions of Americans would still, if given the choice, have the Bush administration leading the country. As Bush saliently said recently, (paraphrase) he won't admit the Iraq war was a mistake because if he was to say that it would be like saying the deaths of those who've died in it would have been a waste. And since that's too much for him and America to bear the lie continues.
hey, it was an honest mistake, let's forget it
Absolutely. It's clear not just in this matter but in the financial frauds that have abounded that America is ok with charging one or two people, but admitting that there is a systemic weakness in the structure--an innate problem with the foundation--is too much to stomach. It does not compute. And so if you've committed crimes worthy of punishment you'll get away with it as long as everybody else has done the same and you don't stick out too much.
 
Last edited:
LBJ having doubts about Vietnam as he 'gave' the war to the Republicans to get their support for his domestic programs

Considering *you* put his name out there, LBJ was a coward. He had the opportunity to pull out right away, but didn't - after all, he was most worried about being impeached. Since he was most worried about his own skin, he must've been a "Republican" in your eyes, right?
 
We committed genocide on the Native Americans, stole 1/3 of our land from the Mexicans, and enslaved the Blacks for hundreds of years. Invading Iraq on the pretense of WMDs is just par for the course. It's not just denial or a failure of the system either, but an obvious cultural bias.

If we wanted to be completely honest we could put signs at the boarders saying:

Welcome to the USA!
Home of the world's largest prison system
The developed world's highest homicide rates
Lynch Mobs
And crowds that yell "jump"!
 
Thank god we changed the reason for war to liberating the iraqi people. right ?


Nah, I prefer just kicking Saddam's butt, securing oil interests, and establishing a military base next to Iraq. All that flashy marketing stuff is for kids.
 
The Iraqi war has strengthened the hate for America in the Middle East. Of course there weren't any fucking WMDs. If they DID have WMDs, would we have taken it over so quickly?

To make things worse, we went in there expecting WMDs, instead we got urban terrorist guerilla warfare. Something our young inexperienced soldiers are NOT familiar with. So, every asshole with a hate on the USA is taking pot shots and roadside bomb hits on our men and women.

On top of it, all the innocents that have died in Iraqi, have surviving family members - who do you think they will blame and continue to hate over the death of their loved ones? What do you think the fundamentalists will exploit to further recruit and convince distraught Muslim youth to do with their "lives"?

We fucked up, royally. It's not; "hey, it was an honest mistake, let's forget it?" And, we are going to pay for it dearly in the coming years.

And, if giving your life for your country means giving it to fulfill someone's personal agenda (wealth especially), then I don't want to live for or in such a country.
 
The Iraqi war has strengthened the hate for America in the Middle East. Of course there weren't any fucking WMDs. If they DID have WMDs, would we have taken it over so quickly?

To make things worse, we went in there expecting WMDs, instead we got urban terrorist guerilla warfare. Something our young inexperienced soldiers are NOT familiar with. So, every asshole with a hate on the USA is taking pot shots and roadside bomb hits on our men and women.

On top of it, all the innocents that have died in Iraqi, have surviving family members - who do you think they will blame and continue to hate over the death of their loved ones? What do you think the fundamentalists will exploit to further recruit and convince distraught Muslim youth to do with their "lives"?

We fucked up, royally. It's not; "hey, it was an honest mistake, let's forget it?" And, we are going to pay for it dearly in the coming years.

And, if giving your life for your country means giving it to fulfill someone's personal agenda (wealth especially), then I don't want to live for or in such a country.

Have you ever been to Iraq? Hardly anyone is taking shots at us or blowing us up anymore. The civil war is over, what's left is actually terrorism primarily targeted at Iraqi Security Forces in an effort to de-legitimize the government.
 
If these things you speak of are so Cut & Dry, Left vs Right, Good vs Evil then surely you realize that the populace is not in your corner?
Something similar to the Dunning-Kruger effect is in play here,,, not your self evaluation of skill, but rather your intelligence level.
 
If these things you speak of are so Cut & Dry, Left vs Right, Good vs Evil then surely you realize that the populace is not in your corner?
Something similar to the Dunning-Kruger effect is in play here,,, not your self evaluation of skill, but rather your intelligence level.
Many spend more time watching sports news than getting into any matter in depth. It's not that surprising the average person is hopelessly incapable of looking at this issue critically. They don't want to.
 

Yawn. They were lied to; and they had enormous political pressure put on them (say you doubt there are WMD and lose your election for many).

Bush played the game well; many were not going to give him a vote for war, so he asked for a vote on something less, saying he would only use it to pressure Saddam to let inspectors back, and would return for another authorization if war were needed. That was good enough for them to approve it - and he lied and went to war on the first authorization, and politically they were unable to hold him accountable, to 'challenge a Commander in Chief when there was a war already started'.

Not a shining moment for Democrats but they were not the cause.

We had people who resigned over the war. Quick, name a couple. Why aren't they more recognized heroes as they deserve?
 
Last edited:
I hated being drafted and sent to Vietnam to go kill other people. Even more so, I hated the idea that my children, friends and their children could have suffered the same fate because Bush Corp. wanted an totally unnecessary and ficticiously justified war. A$$holes.
 
Well the reverse spin is the same. He really didn't have any WMD's? Well since when? He used them in the Iran/Iraq war. He used them against his own people. Saddam was very meticulous about keeping records of his weapons. Some how there are no records of their removal or disposal. Just about every politician you can think of is on record saying he had them and that he needed to be removed from power. Now it’s politically convenient to say he didn’t have them.
 
Well the reverse spin is the same. He really didn't have any WMD's? Well since when? He used them in the Iran/Iraq war. He used them against his own people. Saddam was very meticulous about keeping records of his weapons. Some how there are no records of their removal or disposal. Just about every politician you can think of is on record saying he had them and that he needed to be removed from power. Now it’s politically convenient to say he didn’t have them.

He bought them from us. The WMD's they did find were old, nearly useless weapons left over from that war.

As to saying nearly every politician saying he had them, we had awful intel from that region and alot of the intel was either made up or cherry-picked.

Saddam wouldn't admit to not having any either, Think about it...would you admit to an enemy that you had no weapons?
 
Last edited:
Well the reverse spin is the same. He really didn't have any WMD's? Well since when? He used them in the Iran/Iraq war. He used them against his own people. Saddam was very meticulous about keeping records of his weapons. Some how there are no records of their removal or disposal. Just about every politician you can think of is on record saying he had them and that he needed to be removed from power. Now it’s politically convenient to say he didn’t have them.

Lameness. Nobody can prove a negative, which is what the Bushistas demanded at the time wrt WMD's and also wrt the mythical reconstituted nuclear program. The whole rationale was completely trumped up, something anybody with half a brain should acknowledge.

It was a masterfully crafted pitch to fear, rage and wounded pride in the wake of 9/11. Failure to recognize that will just make us susceptible to more of the same in the future.
 
Too late, we've already had a massive bill pushed through using the same logic, from the same people who hate "Bush&Co", that had to be passed before it could be read.

Ironically it'll likely end up costing more and killing more Americans than the Iraq war...oh the lulz...

Chuck
 
Back
Top