6+ months late and you can only equal the competion in SLI/CrossfireX?

[SlowSpyder]

I would guess whatever issues AMD is having with multi-GPU has to be greedy nV's fault, as you are suggesting.

Touchy today? I didn't read it as blaming Nvidia for being greedy. I read it as Nvidia may have IP so AMD has a work around that might be less efficient or AMD's lack of effort.

 

[Flipped Gazelle]

I would guess whatever issues AMD is having with multi-GPU has to be greedy nV's fault, as you are suggesting.

Doesn't look like he's suggesting that at all.

 

[GaiaHunter]

Hey Groov, you probably are thinking that those GTX480 were quite a waste of money compared to the GTX460 OC (will GTX460 be tested without being OC against not OC cards ever?).

 

[Aristotelian]

Unless $ is not a consideration in your hardware purchases, then 460 SLI was and still remains better. It is very competitive with 5870 in CF for hundreds of $$$ less. Not only is a single GTX460 @ 900mhz keeping up with a 5870, but with better SLI scaling, 460 SLI will be very close while costing $300 less. 5870 has little overclocking headroom and scales worse when overclocked compared to Fermi architecture.

Sorry a lot of people could care less if 5870 is 10% faster than a GTX470, they would rather take $100 savings towards their next graphics card upgrade where that $100 will buy them 30-50%+ performance increase after selling their old card. In addition, I am sure many opted for the $400 GTX460 SLI setup and sacrificed 20% or so performance increase that 5870 CF would offer, pocketing $300 in the process.

Well, I had crafted a well thought out, long-winded response to this but thanks to a chat window popping up from Digsby my back button crushed my dreams of an elegant, intellectual response.

Here's the casual version, quickly put out. Price/performance works only when all other things are equal (enough). For example, sli scaling means squat to those who want single card solutions, and I'd bet a very large sum of money that single card solutions dominate the computer landscape. Heat and noise matter to some people, and of course that was fixed in the GTX460 but as you well know, the GTX460 came out a long time after the 5850 and 5870; the damage had been done.

My point is that whether or not x is better price/performance than y actually doesn't matter to a lot of people, so you're correct (even though that was a typo on your part, so no need for you to be 'sorry' 🙂): many people could care less about x's merely being faster than y for a non-proportional increase in price, but they do not! Many people could care less about the early adoption of technology at a high price premium, but they don't. Many people couldn't care less about price, as long as the performance is good enough for them, and unless you have some hard data to show lots of AMD jumping ship to Nvidia (from a 58XX series card to a 460), I've got a tough time believing that so many people are obsessed with price/performance (without taking into account heat, noise, brand preference, whatever) as you claim.

Edit: you totally misunderstood what I meant in my note to OCGuy.
a) he claimed that cherry picking results is what lead to the decently positive conclusion for AMD in this article, and
b) I was curious whether he made that claim (post history doesn't go back that far) when the previous articles were released because they were based on cherry picked results as well (by OCGuy's metric) and if I recall correctly, I was one of the only people crying foul then.
That's it.

 

[tviceman]

I don't understand the underlying angst people have against Nvidia being six months late with Fermi. I think everyone except AMD fan boys have gotten over it now. If this thread was meant to show that crossfireX is almost on par with SLI, then that should have been the subject line.

 

[Voo]

b) I was curious whether he made that claim (post history doesn't go back that far) when the previous articles were released because they were based on cherry picked results as well (by OCGuy's metric) and if I recall correctly, I was one of the only people crying foul then.
That's it.

So you're saying he's a hypocrite and backing that up with the fact that you're as well? Interesting logic there.

And how exactly is damage been done for people who want to buy a card RIGHT NOW? Because after all, I think we all agree it's rather hard to base a buying decision on a review that appeared several months later. So what is interesting for someone who wants to buy a card now, is the current state of affairs (and maybe a projection for the feature), but not what happened X months ago.

Not that price/performance is the only interesting attribute of a setup, noise and heat, minimum level of performance, as well as a animosity against SLI/CF and additions (physix, eyefinity, what else) are just as important and are mostly subjective.
Also you usually don't change from one card of the same generation to another, so why would be the number of people who sell their 58xx card to get a 460 be that interesting? The more important number would be the number of people who get a 460 instead of a 58xx.

 

[Aristotelian]

So you're saying he's a hypocrite and backing that up with the fact that you're as well? Interesting logic there.

Nice reading comprehension. How can I make the claim that he is a hypocrite if I do not even know what he posted? Can you a) please read my post correctly before b) responding to it? Only then will you earn a comprehensive response to your post in its entirety. Enough with the careless posting.

 

[Grooveriding]

Hey Groov, you probably are thinking that those GTX480 were quite a waste of money compared to the GTX460 OC (will GTX460 be tested without being OC against not OC cards ever?).

The 460s are a good buy for multi-gpu. So long as you overclock them they get some good scores.

Thing is, he keeps benching overclocked 460s against stock 5870s and 480s. 850 seems the average for a 460 overclock, some people get more, some get less, 850 is about the average. He also tends to only bench 3 games, which is not a good spectrum to show how these cards perform overall, his benches are narrow and shallow at the same time.

Considering the price the 460 gives some really good performance. My overclocked 480s are about 25% faster, but allow me to run supersampling which would probably choke up the 460s and 5870s at my resolution.

This is all just noise though, 460s, 480s, 5870s, all old news now. The 6XXX series is coming and will be the new dominant cards, my 480s are getting pawned off shortly while I can still get $700 for them, to pay for two new 6970s :thumbsup::thumbsup:

The review does raise a good point though, nvidia is 6 months behind, so expect another long wait for their refreshes and it's doubtful they will be able to compete with the 6XXX series. If they drop a dual-gpu card it will likely be a bit faster than AMD's new 6 series single GPU but still will be slower than AMD's new 6 series dual-gpu card. I don't see the point, NV won't be back on top till late 2011 if their next series is faster than AMD's 7 series.

 

[Genx87]

They probably would if they thought enough people cared about the difference that Physx makes.



.

I suspect the results would be different. Mainly due to CPU cycles being sucked away to calculate physics in the game on the 5870. One of Mafia 2's main attraction is its Physics. So why benchmark it with the feature turned off?

 

[OCGuy]

The 460s are a good buy for multi-gpu. So long as you overclock them they get some good scores.

Thing is, he keeps benching overclocked 460s against stock 5870s and 480s. 850 seems the average for a 460 overclock, some people get more, some get less, 850 is about the average. He also tends to only bench 3 games, which is not a good spectrum to show how these cards perform overall, his benches are narrow and shallow at the same time.

Considering the price the 460 gives some really good performance. My overclocked 480s are about 25% faster, but allow me to run supersampling which would probably choke up the 460s and 5870s at my resolution.

This is all just noise though, 460s, 480s, 5870s, all old news now. The 6XXX series is coming and will be the new dominant cards, my 480s are getting pawned off shortly while I can still get $700 for them, to pay for two new 6970s :thumbsup::thumbsup:

The review does raise a good point though, nvidia is 6 months behind, so expect another long wait for their refreshes and it's doubtful they will be able to compete with the 6XXX series. If they drop a dual-gpu card it will likely be a bit faster than AMD's new 6 series single GPU but still will be slower than AMD's new 6 series dual-gpu card. I don't see the point, NV won't be back on top till late 2011 if their next series is faster than AMD's 7 series.

6970s? Is that supposed to be the Dual-gpu card? 2-4X GPU scaling is already abysmal no matter what company...but 4X GPUs with AMD, with all of their multi-gpu problems right now?
.

 

[Genx87]

It will unplayable, just like it is on nvidia hardware ()🙂

It plays just fine on my E8400@3.6Ghz + GTX470 @1080p

 

[jiffylube1024]

IIRC Nvidia has always been slightly superior in multi-GPU configurations, usually in the 5-10% range. CrossfireX has come a long LONG way, but SLI still often gives a slightly better % increase going from 1 to 2 or 3 or 4 cards.

Also, bear in mind that the GTX 460 is a newer card than the 5870. The GTX 460 is the first Nvidia card that I've felt has absolutely no drawbacks to it since the 8800GT. The GTX 260 Core 216 was nice too, but the GTX 460 has absolutely ridiculously low power consumption in idle, fair power consumption at load, fits in just about every sized PC case, and is the quietest mid-high end card I've owned since the 3850 HD. All at under $199 is fantastic.

 

[Grooveriding]

6970s? Is that supposed to be the Dual-gpu card? 2-4X GPU scaling is already abysmal no matter what company...but 4X GPUs with AMD, with all of their multi-gpu problems right now?
.

No apparently 6970 is single-gpu flagship, 6990 is dual.

But whatever the case, 2x single-gpu flagship. I had 0 issues with my 5870 CF setup beyond it running out of VRAM with AA in demanding games at my resolution.

This CF stuff is FUD and PEBKAC.

That and 6 series is coming so it's time for NV to ramp up the fud like they did at 5 series launch. No surprises here. Once the 6 series are actually on the market, it will be endless threads about physx, 'upcoming' cards that are coming in 6 months and driver issue crap.

Same story as when the 5 series launched. When you can't compete, talk s**t.

 

[OCGuy]

No apparently 6970 is single-gpu flagship, 6990 is dual.

But whatever the case, 2x single-gpu flagship. I had 0 issues with my 5870 CF setup beyond it running out of VRAM with AA in demanding games at my resolution.

This CF stuff is FUD and PEBKAC.

That and 6 series is coming so it's time for NV to ramp up the fud like they did at 5 series launch. No surprises here. Once the 6 series are actually on the market, it will be endless threads about physx, 'upcoming' cards that are coming in 6 months and driver issue crap.

Same story as when the 5 series launched. When you can't compete, talk s**t.

Ah OK, my bad, didnt know the naming scheme.

CF stuff is far from FUD. It seems with the latest review that maybe the most recent drivers have solved some of the problems though.

AMD will be out the door first, and if it is impressive enough, we might have the same GPU setup when I move to Sandy Bridge (the leaked info shows that FINALLY there is a CPU worth getting off of 775 for).

 

[RussianSensation]

I've got a tough time believing that so many people are obsessed with price/performance(without taking into account heat, noise, brand preference, whatever) as you claim.

Really? Is that why only 14% of gamers choose cards priced above $199?

Sounds to me like price is by far the most important determinant for videocard adoption. It's also pretty clear that most people view the added performance above $200 as not really worthwhile.

Also when did I say that price/performance dictated for 58xx users to jump ship to GTX4xx series? We are talking about new customers. Again, GTX460 768/1GB sell well primarily because of price/performance because they don't really have too many differentiating features with AMD otherwise. Some outstanding cards such as 4850/4870 sold like hot cakes, neither of which being low power consuming or cool running. Noise and heat are icing on the cake. But if the card is priced too high relative to its performance, noise/heat become less relevant in the first place unless you are building an HTPC or live in an area with extremely high electricity costs. You are talking about 10-20W idle differences between most modern cards (and most cards spend most of their time in idle anyway).

I am also pretty sure that HD6770 is going to sell well because of its excellent projected price/performance, and not primarily because because of its 146W TDP. If it was 200W TDP, but still offered 5870 performance for $200-250, people would still buy it.

 

[Grooveriding]

CF stuff is far from FUD. It seems with the latest review that maybe the most recent drivers have solved some of the problems though.
.

When you say CF issues, are you referring to CF not scaling as well as SLI, or CF scaling less than it should as was the case when hardocp benched with the broken drivers ?

If it's the former, SLI has always scaled better for me than CF, SLI scaling is just better with the 4XX series vs the 5XXX series with CF. If it's the latter, maybe some people are using a bad driver set. I never had issues with my setup, I kept my CF profiles updated with that tool AMD has

http://sites.amd.com/us/game/downloads/Pages/radeon-win7-64.aspx

usually there is a link to the profiles there.

Hopefully AMD can get that 10-15% CF scaling parity they lack against SLI with the 6 series. Even without it their single-gpu flagships in Crossfire are still going to outperform 480 SLI on raw horsepower. So long as they do deliver the predicted 140% of GTX 480 performance.

 

[Aristotelian]

Really? Is that why only 14% of gamers choose cards priced above $199?

Sounds to me like price is by far the most important determinant for videocard adoption. It's also pretty clear that most people view the added performance above $200 as not really worthwhile.

Also when did I say that price/performance dictated for 58xx users to jump ship to GTX4xx series? We are talking about new customers. Again, GTX460 768/1GB sell well primarily because of price/performance because they don't really have too many differentiating features with AMD otherwise. Some outstanding cards such as 4850/4870 sold like hot cakes, neither of which being low power consuming or cool running. Noise and heat are icing on the cake. But if the card is priced too high relative to its performance, noise/heat become less relevant in the first place unless you are building an HTPC or live in an area with extremely high electricity costs. You are talking about 10-20W idle differences between most modern cards (and most cards spend most of their time in idle anyway).

I am also pretty sure that HD6770 is going to sell well because of its excellent projected price/performance, and not primarily because because of its 146W TDP. If it was 200W TDP, but still offered 5870 performance for $200-250, people would still buy it.

I think we are talking past one another. Let's try this again: I'm well aware that plenty of people buy graphics cards in the mid/lower mid range, and that these people account for more of the market than 5870/480 purchasers. However, to say that those purchases are necessarily dictated by price (who knows) and then by performance (how many people buying discrete cards in stores actually read performance reviews?) is the part I have an issue with. That's why I listed the other 'factors' (like early adoption).

I misread your 'pocketing 300 dollars in the process' to mean 'jumping ship and pocketing 300 dollars from the exchange'. If you meant new customers why not just say that they saved 300 dollars choosing 460SLI over 5870s? In any case, a miscommunication.

I'm also sure that the 6770 will sell well, but I'm not as convinced that it is price/performance as you are. Do you know where we can get sales information on discrete 460 video cards sold? Google hasn't turned up much for me on this. I'd bet that even though the 460 is priced in an ideal way (well, ideally it'd be free I guess) the sales have not been great. This is why there has been such a push on fora, so many price cuts, rebates and so on. I think the 460 1GB warranted a price (when it came out) much closer to that of the 5850. Anyways, I'm rambling, so one final thing: I don't think that 'having a sweet spot' dictates price/performance, it simply dictates how much was spent. I'm not sure either of us can come down conclusively on why those people bought the respective cards (you say price/performance, I think of thresholds (including price)).

OT: If you live in Toronto (think I saw that in your avatar combo), try going to CanadaComputers (it has been a while since I've been there). When I would go there'd be countless uninformed person after uninformed person. Buying videocards is almost like voting: most people who vote think that they are making an informed decision and similarly people buying videocards are 'informed' by the salesmen, and pushed towards the more the cards that make the most money for the store. Do you think they whip out benchmarks for some dad buying a videocard so his kid can play q3? Or that the kid spends hours each week looking at enthusiast forums like this? I'm not convinced, but I think we'll have to agree to disagree here without some serious studies on the issue.

 

[Madcatatlas]

I'm also sure that the 6770 will sell well, but I'm not as convinced that it is price/performance as you are. Do you know where we can get sales information on discrete 460 video cards sold? Google hasn't turned up much for me on this. I'd bet that even though the 460 is priced in an ideal way (well, ideally it'd be free I guess) the sales have not been great. This is why there has been such a push on fora, so many price cuts, rebates and so on. I think the 460 1GB warranted a price (when it came out) much closer to that of the 5850. Anyways, I'm rambling, so one final thing: I don't think that 'having a sweet spot' dictates price/performance, it simply dictates how much was spent. I'm not sure either of us can come down conclusively on why those people bought the respective cards (you say price/performance, I think of thresholds (including price)).
.

Im only commenting on this part of your post Aristotelian.

Well... look at me. I bought a GTX460. Guess why? the price was right. The performance was right, the heat and noise were right.

And as you might have gathered, im not really happy with Nvidia as a company, i think they suck bigtime. But i still bought this card as it provided, at the time, the best performance per dollar etc.

I belive the GTX460 1gb sells VERY WELL.

And personally i couldnt give a crap about AMDs 6770, because i think i have about that lvl of performance already. Im way more interested in the increase to 6870 or 6950/6970 (whichever is the new high end single gpu)

 

[n0x1ous]

And as you might have gathered, im not really happy with Nvidia as a company.......But i still bought this card as it provided, at the time, the best performance per dollar etc.

props to you for an informed unbiased decision based on the hardware alone. There are some who can't seperate the hardware from their feelings towards NV or ATI

 

[Madcatatlas]

Thank you, I expect much the same from everyone, but you should know that isnt how it works when some unethical methods of marketting/business are put into play.

 

[blastingcap]

Title of this thread is at odds with the conclusion in the article linked to; consider editing it? Scaling is kinda game-dependent...

 

[Madcatatlas]

Why? do i mention anything about the conclusion in the title?
Your free to read for yourself. The important bit for me is the one i comment in the first post. I dont mind if others view other bits as interesting or even more so.

 

[RussianSensation]

OT: If you live in Toronto (think I saw that in your avatar combo), try going to CanadaComputers (it has been a while since I've been there). When I would go there'd be countless uninformed person after uninformed person.

Tell me about it. One time at CC I saw an older customer asking what to buy for his son (but he clearly didn't know much about videocards). He was convinced into getting a Sapphire 4890 2GB card for $439 CDN....this was about 2 weeks before HD5870 launched at about $379 USD (forgot what the price was in Canada). Outrages rip-off for that poor soul.

I also overheard some 20 year old kid at BestBuy trying to sell a $1500 laptop with GT230 discrete graphics laptop to an uninformed customer who specifically wanted a gaming laptop (he even mentioned Crysis, etc). When the salesperson left, I quickly ran and showed him a $1500 Asus G Series laptop on Newegg.ca with a 5870. So really it's probably impossible to say what motivates the average consumer 😀 Since I have seen people actually spend $100 on HDMI cables at Futureshop when buying new HDTV, I wouldn't be surprised if at least 1 or 2 GTX480/5870 cards were sold based on the customer's inquiry for Starcraft 2 "upgrade recommendations" at those stores lol.

 

[Grooveriding]

OT: If you live in Toronto (think I saw that in your avatar combo), try going to CanadaComputers (it has been a while since I've been there). When I would go there'd be countless uninformed person after uninformed person. Buying videocards is almost like voting: most people who vote think that they are making an informed decision and similarly people buying videocards are 'informed' by the salesmen, and pushed towards the more the cards that make the most money for the store. Do you think they whip out benchmarks for some dad buying a videocard so his kid can play q3? Or that the kid spends hours each week looking at enthusiast forums like this? I'm not convinced, but I think we'll have to agree to disagree here without some serious studies on the issue.

Ahh! I never shop at CC, live in Toronto myself as well. Sales staff are terrible there.

Order most of my stuff from NCIX :thumbsup: But they just opened a store in Markham and one in Toronto now, so you can actually hit a storefront now as well.

 

[Petey!]

Hold on... are you telling me Crossfire doesn't scale as well as SLI?


STOP THE PRESSES!