6 Cities Caught Shortening Yellow Light Durations For Profit

jpeyton

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Short yellow light times at intersections have been shown to increase the number of traffic violations and accidents. Conversely, increasing the yellow light duration can dramatically reduce red-light violations at an intersection.

Some local governments have ignored the safety benefit of increasing the yellow light time and decided to install red-light cameras, shorten the yellow light duration, and collect the profits instead.

Here are some of the cities that have been caught with short yellow light times over the past few years:

1) Chattanooga, Tennessee
The city of Chattanooga was forced refund $8800 in red light cameras tickets issued to motorists trapped by an illegally short yellow time. The refund only occurred after a motorist challenged his citation by insisting that the yellow light time of 3.0 seconds was too short. LaserCraft, the private vendor that runs the camera program in return for a cut of the profits, provided the judge with a computer database that asserted the yellow was 3.8 seconds at that location.

The judge then personally checked the intersection in question was timed at three seconds while other nearby locations had about four seconds of yellow warning. City traffic engineer John Van Winkle told Bean that ?a mix up with the turn arrow? was responsible and that the bare minimum for the light should be 3.9 seconds.

2) Dallas, Texas
An investigation by KDFW-TV, a local TV station, found that of the ten cameras that issued the greatest number of tickets in the city, seven were located at intersections where the yellow duration is shorter than the bare minimum recommended by the Texas Department of Transportation (TxDOT).

The city?s second highest revenue producing camera, for example, was located at the intersection of Greenville Avenue and Mockingbird Lane. It issued 9407 tickets worth $705,525 between January 1 and August 31, 2007. At the intersections on Greenville Avenue leading up to the camera intersection, however, yellows are at least 3.5 or 4.0 seconds in duration, but the ticket-producing intersection?s yellow stands at just 3.15 seconds. That is 0.35 seconds shorter than TxDOT?s recommended bare minimum. Dallas likewise installed the cameras at locations with existing short yellow times. A total of twenty-one camera intersections in Dallas had yellow times below TxDOT?s bare minimum recommended amount.

The ticket camera program in Dallas made the news recently for shutting down some of its cameras because they were no longer profitable.

3) Springfield, Missouri
The city of Springfield, Missouri prepared for the installation of a red light camera system in 2007 by slashing the yellow warning time by one second at 105 state-owned intersection signals across the city.

The city defended its effort to the Springfield News-Leader by claiming it was ?standardizing? and had increased the yellow time at 136 city-operated lights to meet national standards. During the city council meeting last October where the red light camera ordinance was approved, however, Assistant Director of Public Works Earl Newman gave a different explanation for the reduction. Newman said he was, ?concerned that many individuals run the light if the light remained yellow too long.?

4) Lubbock, Texas
KBCD, a local television station, exposed the city?s short timing of yellow lights at eight of the twelve intersections where the devices were to be installed.

Prior to the news investigation, Lubbock City Engineer Jere Hart assured city council members that he would not increase yellow times. According to the city council?s traffic commission minutes of September 19, 2006, Jere said, ?if [the red light camera program is] implemented, the public would prefer to have an increased amber cycle,? but he stated that, ?the program will not adjust the amber/yellow time.?

Shortly after the investigation became public, red-light cameras were installed in Lubbock. However, after they proved to be both unprofitable (due in part to a new state law giving 50% of the ticket camera profit to the state) and unsafe (accidents increased where the cameras were installed), they were taken down.

5)Nashville, Tennessee
Even without red light cameras, police in Nashville, Tennessee have been earning hundreds of thousands in revenue by trapping motorists in conventional ticket traps at city intersections with the shortest yellow warning time.

In 2006, Nashville resident Joe Savage obtained the data on every red light running ticket issued on Broadway street since 2000. He said that yellow lights are longer at intersections along Broadway until the areas where police are issuing tickets. At those locations, Savage clocked the yellow signal time at less than 3 seconds, in violation of both state law and federal regulations. A local newspaper, The Nashville Scene, then confirmed his findings.

6) Union City, California
In 2005, Union City, California was caught trapping motorists with a yellow signal time 1.3 seconds below the minimum established by state law. As a result, the city was forced to refund more than $1 million in red light camera fines.

The city?s violation came to light after Dave Goodson, an engineer, received a ticket and realized that he did not have sufficient time to stop before the light had turned red. As a result of his inquiries, Union City?s traffic engineers admitted that they had set the yellow signal time at Union City Boulevard and Lowry Road at 3 seconds, despite the state law mandating the time be 4.3 seconds or greater.

Authorities said that the yellow was too short long before the cameras were installed, but that no effective system was in place to verify the timing of the traffic signals despite their direct impact on safety.

Closing Notes:
These are only the cities that have been caught; it?s likely that this happens much more than the general public has been led to believe. Many cities avoid the bad publicity involved with shortening yellow lights by installing the cameras at intersections with inadequate yellow light times from the beginning.

If you or a family member receive an unjustified red-light violation ticket, it may be worth your time to check the yellow light duration at the intersection where the ticket was given out.

Also, if you know of any city currently shortening yellow lights in your area, let everyone know by posting it the comments of this post.

They're breaking the law to get you to 'break' the law. I think this proves, without a shadow of a doubt, that red-light cameras have nothing to do with public safety and everything to do with revenue generation.

The problem is that motorists are tuning into the fact that these cameras exist, and in some cities, the number of citations from cameras are falling far below their 'expectations'. Enough so that cities are removing cameras and moving back to patrol officers, who can 'guarantee' a steadier revenue stream from citations.
 

miri

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2003
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I am glad that they removed the red light cameras in Irvine, CA.
 

jagec

Lifer
Apr 30, 2004
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Yup. The worst part about it is that red-light cameras COULD have been a good way of catching truly dangerous drivers--running red lights is much, much more dangerous than speeding--but then they sabotage that aspect when they shorten the yellow and turn them into pure revenue streams.
 

Crusty

Lifer
Sep 30, 2001
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This really fucking pisses me off. I see people running red lights EVERY single day, really running them too. At least 1-2s after the other lights turn green. Now this is just going to provide more reasons for people to try and get these taken down, when they really do need to be there.
 

miri

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2003
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Originally posted by: Crusty
I see people running red lights EVERY single day, really running them too. At least 1-2s after the other lights turn green. Now this is just going to provide more reasons for people to try and get these taken down, when they really do need to be there.

Yeah but what happens if your in a really long intersection and you go while its green and due to traffic slowing, you get stuck in the intersection. Thats a $340+ dollar ticket + points on your driving record.
 

holden j caufield

Diamond Member
Dec 30, 1999
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I've witness a number of near rear ends at the one near us. People are slamming their brakes at the yellow and not attempting to pass through when they are going 40-50mph. They are too afraid to cross it when yellow even when their speed and location indicates they should be proceeding onwards. They had to issue refunds in Costa Mesa because the yellow was too short for a 4 lane road (8 lanes total I think). I'm all for these cameras if done properly and catching the clear cut offenders. I'm wondering if anyone in an accident related to short yellows has sued the operator or city
 

Crusty

Lifer
Sep 30, 2001
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Originally posted by: miri
Originally posted by: Crusty
I see people running red lights EVERY single day, really running them too. At least 1-2s after the other lights turn green. Now this is just going to provide more reasons for people to try and get these taken down, when they really do need to be there.

Yeah but what happens if your in a really long intersection and you go while its green and due to traffic slowing, you get stuck in the intersection. Thats a $340+ dollar ticket + points on your driving record.

If there's not enough room in the intersection for you to pass through you shouldn't have entered to begin with.
 

miri

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2003
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Originally posted by: holden j caufield
I've witness a number of near rear ends at the one near us. People are slamming their brakes at the yellow and not attempting to pass through when they are going 40-50mph. They are too afraid to cross it when yellow even when their speed and location indicates they should be proceeding onwards. They had to issue refunds in Costa Mesa because the yellow was too short for a 4 lane road (8 lanes total I think). I'm wondering if anyone in an accident related to short yellows has sued the operator or city

I wonder if cities with red light cameras have decreased sales/income tax revenue due to people avoiding them due to red light cameras. There are no red light cameras in Newport Beach/Irvine which is why I like to hang out in this area. But if I goto Costa Mesa or one of the other connecting cities, I have to worry about getting a red light ticket due to the length of the intersection thats gonna cost like $300-$400 + points on driving record.
 

hanoverphist

Diamond Member
Dec 7, 2006
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Originally posted by: miri
I am glad that they removed the red light cameras in Irvine, CA.

ive seen a few new ones here in the phoenix area, some with speed cams in them as well. nothing like a dual ticket for speeding thru a red light.
 

pcslookout

Lifer
Mar 18, 2007
11,959
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Originally posted by: Crusty
Originally posted by: miri
Originally posted by: Crusty
I see people running red lights EVERY single day, really running them too. At least 1-2s after the other lights turn green. Now this is just going to provide more reasons for people to try and get these taken down, when they really do need to be there.

Yeah but what happens if your in a really long intersection and you go while its green and due to traffic slowing, you get stuck in the intersection. Thats a $340+ dollar ticket + points on your driving record.

If there's not enough room in the intersection for you to pass through you shouldn't have entered to begin with.

:thumbsup:
 

miri

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2003
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Originally posted by: Crusty
Originally posted by: miri
Originally posted by: Crusty
I see people running red lights EVERY single day, really running them too. At least 1-2s after the other lights turn green. Now this is just going to provide more reasons for people to try and get these taken down, when they really do need to be there.

Yeah but what happens if your in a really long intersection and you go while its green and due to traffic slowing, you get stuck in the intersection. Thats a $340+ dollar ticket + points on your driving record.

If there's not enough room in the intersection for you to pass through you shouldn't have entered to begin with.

Not sure what the intersections in Austin look like, but some of the ones here in Orange county are huge. If you hit the tail end of a green light, by the time you get through, it could be red already even without traffic slowing in front of you.
 

hanoverphist

Diamond Member
Dec 7, 2006
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Originally posted by: Crusty
Originally posted by: miri
Originally posted by: Crusty
I see people running red lights EVERY single day, really running them too. At least 1-2s after the other lights turn green. Now this is just going to provide more reasons for people to try and get these taken down, when they really do need to be there.

Yeah but what happens if your in a really long intersection and you go while its green and due to traffic slowing, you get stuck in the intersection. Thats a $340+ dollar ticket + points on your driving record.

If there's not enough room in the intersection for you to pass through you shouldn't have entered to begin with.

not to mention the fact that if youre already in the intersection and it turns red, the cam wont flash ya. you have to be at that painted red line before you get cited for it. thats why they painted those on there.if you cross that red line after its red, you get flashed and a ticket. if youre past it, nothing.
 

miri

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2003
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Originally posted by: hanoverphist
Originally posted by: Crusty
Originally posted by: miri
Originally posted by: Crusty
I see people running red lights EVERY single day, really running them too. At least 1-2s after the other lights turn green. Now this is just going to provide more reasons for people to try and get these taken down, when they really do need to be there.

Yeah but what happens if your in a really long intersection and you go while its green and due to traffic slowing, you get stuck in the intersection. Thats a $340+ dollar ticket + points on your driving record.

If there's not enough room in the intersection for you to pass through you shouldn't have entered to begin with.

not to mention the fact that if youre already in the intersection and it turns red, the cam wont flash ya. you have to be at that painted red line before you get cited for it. thats why they painted those on there.if you cross that red line after its red, you get flashed and a ticket. if youre past it, nothing.

Hmm, did not know that. Is that true for all red light cameras or just some?

 

ViperVin2

Senior member
Mar 9, 2001
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Originally posted by: jpeyton
6) Union City, California
In 2005, Union City, California was caught trapping motorists with a yellow signal time 1.3 seconds below the minimum established by state law. As a result, the city was forced to refund more than $1 million in red light camera fines.

The city?s violation came to light after Dave Goodson, an engineer, received a ticket and realized that he did not have sufficient time to stop before the light had turned red. As a result of his inquiries, Union City?s traffic engineers admitted that they had set the yellow signal time at Union City Boulevard and Lowry Road at 3 seconds, despite the state law mandating the time be 4.3 seconds or greater.

Wow... I actually live right on the corner of this intersection.
 

Crusty

Lifer
Sep 30, 2001
12,684
2
81
Originally posted by: miri
Originally posted by: Crusty
Originally posted by: miri
Originally posted by: Crusty
I see people running red lights EVERY single day, really running them too. At least 1-2s after the other lights turn green. Now this is just going to provide more reasons for people to try and get these taken down, when they really do need to be there.

Yeah but what happens if your in a really long intersection and you go while its green and due to traffic slowing, you get stuck in the intersection. Thats a $340+ dollar ticket + points on your driving record.

If there's not enough room in the intersection for you to pass through you shouldn't have entered to begin with.

Not sure what the intersections in Austin look like, but some of the ones here in Orange county are huge. If you hit the tail end of a green light, by the time you get through, it could be red already even without traffic slowing in front of you.

Then the cameras are not calibrated correctly, or the timing of the lights are wrong(like indicated in the OP quote).

My point is that proper use of cameras is a benefit. Now that local/state governments have been outed for cheating the system the cameras will lose credibility, which is bad.
 

ViperVin2

Senior member
Mar 9, 2001
876
0
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Originally posted by: miri
Originally posted by: hanoverphist
Originally posted by: Crusty
Originally posted by: miri
Originally posted by: Crusty
I see people running red lights EVERY single day, really running them too. At least 1-2s after the other lights turn green. Now this is just going to provide more reasons for people to try and get these taken down, when they really do need to be there.

Yeah but what happens if your in a really long intersection and you go while its green and due to traffic slowing, you get stuck in the intersection. Thats a $340+ dollar ticket + points on your driving record.

If there's not enough room in the intersection for you to pass through you shouldn't have entered to begin with.

not to mention the fact that if youre already in the intersection and it turns red, the cam wont flash ya. you have to be at that painted red line before you get cited for it. thats why they painted those on there.if you cross that red line after its red, you get flashed and a ticket. if youre past it, nothing.

Hmm, did not know that. Is that true for all red light cameras or just some?

All cameras.. and if there isn't a painted red line... your car needs to be past the crosswalk to be safe from the flash
 

funkymatt

Diamond Member
Jun 2, 2005
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Originally posted by: miri
I am glad that they removed the red light cameras in Irvine, CA.

They still have a couple in Laguna Hills off of moulton, there's 2 in a row!
 

jiggahertz

Golden Member
Apr 7, 2005
1,532
0
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Originally posted by: miri
Originally posted by: Crusty
I see people running red lights EVERY single day, really running them too. At least 1-2s after the other lights turn green. Now this is just going to provide more reasons for people to try and get these taken down, when they really do need to be there.

Yeah but what happens if your in a really long intersection and you go while its green and due to traffic slowing, you get stuck in the intersection. Thats a $340+ dollar ticket + points on your driving record.

I'd like to see that enforced here. It's more the norm than the exception during heavy traffic.
 

miri

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2003
3,679
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Originally posted by: funkymatt
Originally posted by: miri
I am glad that they removed the red light cameras in Irvine, CA.

They still have a couple in Laguna Hills off of moulton, there's 2 in a row!

hehe, Irvine does have a ton of traffic cops to make up for the lack of red light cameras though. Funny thing though is like I see a cop like once every 4-5 months in Newport Beach but I see them like every 1 or 2 days in Irvine. Why is that? Both are low crime rate cities.
 

Gunslinger08

Lifer
Nov 18, 2001
13,234
2
81
I don't think anyone ever really believed it was about public safety. People who run red lights are usually either drunk, inattentive, or assholes. Not the type who care or realize they'll be getting a ticket.
 

holden j caufield

Diamond Member
Dec 30, 1999
6,324
10
81
Originally posted by: funkymatt
Originally posted by: miri
I am glad that they removed the red light cameras in Irvine, CA.

They still have a couple in Laguna Hills off of moulton, there's 2 in a row!

Moulton and ?. There's a bunch off of Harbor and Warner around there. 55 fwy and 17th street in costa mesa and one done further like on superior? Don't forget on those busy spots I think they also take it for making a right turn on red. Friend got a ticket for that. What about the drivers being cheated and their insurance premiums going up. I know in Costa Mesa they had to reimburse people as far as many months prior
 

Kadarin

Lifer
Nov 23, 2001
44,296
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If cities are breaking the law to do this, there should be legal consequences levied against those who were responsible for making the decision to implement this.